[jaxword]

Just because I have a belief about what it takes to pass that judgement from God does not mean I am actively judging people.

Yes it does. You're just hiding behind God so you can claim "It's not me judging, it's GOD doing it!"

It's a cowardly, hypocritical display that is typical of these debates. You know you'll be called out if you judge others, so you carefully word it so that The Authority Figure said it, not you.

[Dude Abides]

I would say all of this justifies what the apostles wrote after Jesus ascended into Heaven. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you (John 14:26). When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, he will testify about me, and you will testify also, because you have been with me from the beginning (John 15:26–27). But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you (John 16:13,14). Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them (John 17:25–26). He said He would continue to make God known, even though He knew He was going die and later ascend to Heaven. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age (Matthew 28:19–20). Thus, All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16) If that's not enough for you, and you haven't taken a class or studied up biblical doctrine, then yeah I can say nothing else to you.

He didn't say any of that to Saul of Tarsus. And we don't even know who wrote some of the other books, like Timothy or Hebrews. If you've never taken a class or studied up biblical scholarship from a non-apologist persepctive, then yeah I can say nothing else to you.

[ChiTownBuffalo]

So as it stands:

One group isn't happy because I haven't straight up renounced Christ. Is there a ceremony for that?

One group is pretty sure I'll get around to it sooner or later. But the only way to stop doing that is to stay involved in an organization which is deplorable to me.

The thing is, the people that are more or less for me staying on Team Church, are pushing me towards Team Renounce Christ.

I'm going to be ok worshipping in my own way, I think.

[Game Analyst]

I didn't know the bible came with a commentary track

There are people who have devoted their who lives (once saved) to studying God's Word and teaching it to others.

"Now these are the gifts Christ gave to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers. Their responsibility is to equip God’s people to do his work and build up the church, the body of Christ. This will continue until we all come to such unity in our faith and knowledge of God’s Son that we will be mature in the Lord, measuring up to the full and complete standard of Christ. Then we will no longer be immature like children. We won’t be tossed and blown about by every wind of new teaching. We will not be influenced when people try to trick us with lies so clever they sound like the truth." - Ephesians 4:11-14

[JGS]

What about this one: Psalm 82:6: "I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.'" Blasphemy straight from the mouth of Jesus Christ. His teachings have a lot in common with Buddhist thought, and the theory that he may (if he existed at all) travelled and learnt with Buddhist monks in his younger days before he reappeared as an adult is certainly an enticing one. Incidentally, I'm interesting in freeing myself of the chains of cultural conditioning which is at the core of all Buddhist thinking (the one I appreciate is Zen as it eschews reliance on dogmatic thought... unlike nearly all religions and other schools of Buddhist thought).

Not knowing the context of the verse and no time to research it, it is not unusual at all for the Bible to mention other gods because a god is based on what people believe one to be. There are verses that indicate some don't believe in god of the Bible.

One of the bigger problems never discussed within Christendom is their fear of using proper names.

[pax217]

Yes it does. You're just hiding behind God so you can claim "It's not me judging, it's GOD doing it!" It's a cowardly, hypocritical display that is typical of these debates. You know you'll be called out if you judge others, so you carefully word it so that The Authority Figure said it, not you.

That's what it looks like from your perspective because you don't believe the same thing he does, but what if he actually believes that himself? He sees it a completely different way.

I'm going to be ok worshipping in my own way, I think.

I stopped going to church years ago, and it was the best thing for me. I honestly thought that with all the science curriculum I'd have to take at a liberal school that I'd be able to disprove God after I got my CE degree anyway... didn't happen. I still don't go to church years later, and I "worship in my own way" and have never been better.

Wish more people had the same mindset as you. Just because a Pastor (Bishop, whoever) says so, doesn't make it so.

[The Lamp]

He didn't say any of that to Saul of Tarsus. And we don't even know who wrote some of the other books, like Timothy or Hebrews. If you've never taken a class or studied up biblical scholarship from a non-apologist persepctive, then yeah I can say nothing else to you.

I know that. But there are reasons why Paul's and other books were ultimately included.

[Crunched]

So as it stands: One group isn't happy because I haven't straight up renounced Christ. Is there a ceremony for that? One group is pretty sure I'll get around to it sooner or later. But the only way to stop doing that is to stay involved in an organization which is deplorable to me. The thing is, the people that are more or less for me staying on Team Church, are pushing me towards Team Renounce Christ. I'm going to be ok worshipping in my own way, I think.

Just do whatever makes you happy.

[Angry Fork]

Which is tougher than simply leaving a religion you don't agree with. Sounds like your slavery is way worse.

My slavery is real.

(And you're being disingenuous since Christian's don't believe they could be free if they just left the religion).

[Aristion]

The Bible is not the word of God. It is the account men, ho were witnesses to the works of God and Jesus.

Although I agree that the Bible isn't the word of God (because I don't believe in Jesus), I don't see how the Bible being written by men in any way precludes it from being inspired by God.

Furthermore, the Bible, is a construct of the council of Nicea.

LOL, the Bible isn't a construct of Nicaea. Nicaea had nothing to do with the canon of the Bible, but rather it attempted to decide whether Jesus is co-eternal and co-substantial with God the Father.

Also Christians who lived long before Constantine was ever even a zygote had compiled lists of the New Testament books they considered authoritative. See here.

Don't make sweeping statements about Church history like that if you haven't studied the issue.

Yes, there are many collaborative accounts of what Jesus said amongst the Gospels. And there are many things in the Apocrypha which elaborate on the teaches of Jesus, but are not included in the "Bible."

And those apocryphal texts are hundreds of years removed from the 1st century context in which Jesus and his disciples lived. The earliest apocryphal text is the Gospel of Thomas, written around 140 C.E., hardly representative of Jesus' teachings.

But what you want to say, is that I'm not a real Christian.

Do you participate in a faith-community, like Jesus, Paul, James and John taught? Do you participate in the Lord's Supper, do you confess your sins regularly and exhort your fellow believers?

If not, then you're not a Christian in any sense of the word.

So fuck you.

1 Peter 3:15 "...but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence."

[Despera]

You're halfway there, OP :)

[Game Analyst]

He didn't say any of that to Saul of Tarsus.

But Jesus did say the following to Saul/Paul;

“One day I was on such a mission to Damascus, armed with the authority and commission of the leading priests. About noon, Your Majesty, as I was on the road, a light from heaven brighter than the sun shone down on me and my companions. We all fell down, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? It is useless for you to fight against my will.’

“‘Who are you, lord?’ I asked.

“And the Lord replied, ‘I am Jesus, the one you are persecuting. Now get to your feet! For I have appeared to you to appoint you as my servant and witness. You are to tell the world what you have seen and what I will show you in the future. And I will rescue you from both your own people and the Gentiles. Yes, I am sending you to the Gentiles to open their eyes, so they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God. Then they will receive forgiveness for their sins and be given a place among God’s people, who are set apart by faith in me.’ Acts 26

[LiK]

Bless you

[Angry Fork]

So as it stands: One group isn't happy because I haven't straight up renounced Christ. Is there a ceremony for that? One group is pretty sure I'll get around to it sooner or later. But the only way to stop doing that is to stay involved in an organization which is deplorable to me. The thing is, the people that are more or less for me staying on Team Church, are pushing me towards Team Renounce Christ. I'm going to be ok worshipping in my own way, I think.

I'm unhappy because you've only thought things through halfway and you willfully choose to not go any further in your assessment of religion. It's a waste of a good brain. It's your choice though, remember we're not the ones saying you'll go to hell for not believing.

[Aristion]

All your passages, were not the words of Jesus. They are the words of Paul. The common thread in all of Paul's letters is that he's a bit of a homophobe and a misogynist. Paul never met Jesus. Paul was also a Pharisee.

Paul only taught what he learned from Peter, John and James. We have letters from the disciples of John which state that Paul was in complete harmony with the other apostles. So when Jesus said that his Church would be faithful in his word, was he wrong?

So as it stands: One group isn't happy because I haven't straight up renounced Christ. Is there a ceremony for that? One group is pretty sure I'll get around to it sooner or later. But the only way to stop doing that is to stay involved in an organization which is deplorable to me. The thing is, the people that are more or less for me staying on Team Church, are pushing me towards Team Renounce Christ. I'm going to be ok worshipping in my own way, I think.

You can't have Christ without the Church.

[Napoleonthechimp]

Here is a commentary on that verse:

I look at the Bible as if it is filtered through millennia of absolute bullshit. Different ideas are brought together by different people over a span of many centuries all culminating in something that is a mass of contradictions and nonsense. When I look at those phrases I see what I want to see which has more in common with Hindu and Buddhist ideas (which the latter loosely borrowed from the former), both of which predate Christianity by a long way and no doubt influenced what would become known as modern-day Christianity.

In fact the concept of Krishna (who was conceived via the "mental transmission" into the womb of his mother) being an avatar of the divine (you could say the "son of god") and preaching the message that we are all aspects of Braman - the formless infinite/God - again predates Jesus Christ.

If people want to hold other people and organisations above - and in control - of them then know that is your choice to live within that prison.

[SoulPlaya]

So as it stands: One group isn't happy because I haven't straight up renounced Christ. Is there a ceremony for that? One group is pretty sure I'll get around to it sooner or later. But the only way to stop doing that is to stay involved in an organization which is deplorable to me. The thing is, the people that are more or less for me staying on Team Church, are pushing me towards Team Renounce Christ. I'm going to be ok worshipping in my own way, I think.

Dude, you really should not be basing this decision on a damn message board, especially not a video game message board where the entry age is 13.

Take a step back, search yourself, and just do what you want. My only recommendation, though, is if you want to find people who share your views, then you can probably find a church in Chicago that shares your views.

EDIT: BTW, I think you might be interested in Kierkegaard's philosophy, Existential Christianity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_existentialism

[Dude Abides]

But Jesus did say the following to Saul/Paul; “One day I was on such a mission to Damascus, armed with the authority and commission of the leading priests. About noon, Your Majesty, as I was on the road, a light from heaven brighter than the sun shone down on me and my companions. We all fell down, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? It is useless for you to fight against my will.’ “‘Who are you, lord?’ I asked. “And the Lord replied, ‘I am Jesus, the one you are persecuting. Now get to your feet! For I have appeared to you to appoint you as my servant and witness. You are to tell the world what you have seen and what I will show you in the future. And I will rescue you from both your own people and the Gentiles. Yes, I am sending you to the Gentiles to open their eyes, so they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God. Then they will receive forgiveness for their sins and be given a place among God’s people, who are set apart by faith in me.’ Acts 26

According to Paul. Lots of crazies have claimed to have had conversations with Jesus.

[SRG01]

Just out of curiosity here, what are the credentials of the members here that are debating various passages in the bible? While the opinions of many members may be valid, it's hard to give credence to people with anything less than a Theology, Religious Studies, or other scholarly background.

And no, giving sermons or being a minister does not count.

You can't have Christ without the Church.

Well, that really depends on where you're coming from...

[XNarte]

Judas knew what he was doing was wrong. That is who Jesus is talking about. The Bible says there are different types of sins. 1. Sinning when we know its wrong (Hebrews 10:26) 2. Sinning when we do not know it is wrong (Leviticus 4:2).

But what does that have to do with the original thing I was discussing with BruiserBear? He was wondering how some Christians can "knowingly" be pro-choice. I compared it with some Christians who "knowingly" commit other sins, such as adultery. I'm comparing two acts of sin that are knowingly being chosen. If both sins are knowingly committed, then they would be considered equal in the eyes of God right?

[ChiTownBuffalo]

You can't have Christ without the Church.

I understand that fellowship is important, 1 John 1:3. But, if that's the way it is.

I just quit. I don't want to have anything to do with what alot of people here are calling church.

[Pollux]

Just some musings while I'm bored at work...they might not be theologically sound or anything like that...just a message of support for the OP and hoping that he finds his way, whether that way is in an organized religion or on his own.

Become Catholic...our leaders have cool hats.

Sorry for this "live journal" response to your "live journal" OP:

If I'm completely missing the point of what you're saying then I apologize...

But seriously, do what you think is right. When it comes down to it we all have that personal relationship with God and you don't need a church or anything to develop that relationship. Just live a good life and try to do everything everyday to be a good man. I read a quote once, and I forget who said it, but it stands true..."You don't have a say in where you're born, and you may not have much say in where you die; but you can, and should, try to pass all the days in between as a good man.".

If you're still religious, keep in mind the phrase Magis. It's Latin for "more". The idea is a Jesuit one. It means what more can I do for God? and by extension what more can I do for God's people (aka humanity). St. Ignatius of Loyola would often say, "What have I done for God? What am I doing for God? and What MORE can I do for Him?" The phrase can be expanded to include what MORE can I do everyday to help out others, to make the world a better place?

As I said, and this may sound nonsensical coming from a Catholic, but you don't need to be in a Church to have a relationship with God. I used to be a complete mess when I was in high school and early college, I believed everything was morally relative. Cheat on a test in high school? Go for it, it's justifiable to get into a good college. Lie to get out of trouble? Go for it, if I get in trouble I won't be able to go out that weekend. Treat others like crap? Of course, obviously I'm better than they are.

That attitude was incredibly fucked up. I look back on how I was 5-6 years ago, and if I could meet myself I would punch myself right in the face and deliver a swift kick to the nuts. I would have deserved it.

To get to the point...You don't need to do religious works or spiritual works to glorify God or to live as He would want you to. I realized this and since then my life has improved dramatically. Everyday you can do things to glorify God. Help that old lady across the street, don't cheat on a test, work honestly, treat others with respect, treat yourself with respect, don't lie to get avoid punishment, take responsibility for your actions, help those in need, etc.

All these things can be done without a Church. All these things can, quite frankly before Atheist-GAF jumps on me, be done without God. And honestly, you don't need God to live a better life. But for those of us who are believers it does give you an extra push to slow down and help someone when you're already 15 minutes late, or to go buy a sandwich for the homeless guy when you only have 5 dollars left in your bank account. I'm selfish by nature, and maybe others aren't, but I know that trying to tell myself to live everyday as God would want me to live has helped me be a better person.

Just remember the phrase ad maiorem Dei gloriam - "For the greater glory of God". The phrase sums up what I've been babbling on about for the last few paragraphs...basically it is a summary of the idea that any work that is not evil, even one that would normally be considered inconsequential to the spiritual life, can be spiritually meritorious if it is performed in order to give glory to God. And that is how you can live your life, without organized religion, and still bring glory to God.

[Solstice]

Just out of curiosity here, what are the credentials of the members here that are debating various passages in the bible? While the opinions of many members may be valid, it's hard to give credence to people with anything less than a Theology, Religious Studies, or other scholarly background. And no, giving sermons or being a minister does not count. Well, that really depends on where you're coming from...

Even then, people are referencing a book that is quite old, so unless they were there when it was written, a lot is up to "interpretation". I'm not comfortable with that.

[SRG01]

I understand that fellowship is important, 1 John 1:3. But, if that's the way it is. I just quit. I don't want to have anything to do with what alot of people here are calling church.

To be quite fair, the notion of fellowship is not necessarily in reference to a church or formal organization.

[JGS]

I understand that fellowship is important, 1 John 1:3. But, if that's the way it is. I just quit. I don't want to have anything to do with what alot of people here are calling church.

Are you thinking all "church" is the same?

[SoulPlaya]

I can't even believe we're having this discussion. You want to still be a Christian, still live your life by Christ's teachings? Then, go ahead. Who cares what some message board strangers think?

[ChiTownBuffalo]

Are you thinking all "church" is the same?

Nah, I just don't want to be in the same building as them.

Not, I'm totally OK, worshipping on my own. It's not the norm, but it's not a strict requirement.

My relationship with God isn't going to be dictated in dressing up and going somewhere for a couple hours every Sunday. I read the Bible, I have quiet time. I spend time with other Christians.

[Chumly]

People used to use the bible to defend slavery. I consider the current views on homosexuality to be the same as that. Some time down the road everyone will look at how bigoted people were against it and it was not what Jesus was teaching. That's why I go to a Christian church that believes in gay marriage

[The Lamp]

I understand that fellowship is important, 1 John 1:3. But, if that's the way it is. I just quit. I don't want to have anything to do with what alot of people here are calling church.

I mean, my church has people with your viewpoint and has people with different viewpoints. But we don't get caught up in that since the focus of the church, for us, is to spread the gospel, commune, learn about the Bible, and disciple each other. Like others have said, if you're interested, I'm sure there are other places in your community where you can find people who share your beliefs or won't at least harm you for what you do believe.

[bengraven]

So as it stands: One group isn't happy because I haven't straight up renounced Christ. Is there a ceremony for that? One group is pretty sure I'll get around to it sooner or later. But the only way to stop doing that is to stay involved in an organization which is deplorable to me. The thing is, the people that are more or less for me staying on Team Church, are pushing me towards Team Renounce Christ. I'm going to be ok worshipping in my own way, I think.

Yep, like I said.

Number one cause of atheism is Christians.

[Angry Fork]

I can't even believe we're having this discussion. You want to still be a Christian, still live your life by Christ's teachings? Then, go ahead. Who cares what some message board strangers think?

Because he spends a lot of time on gaf and cares enough about their opinions? Like many others on this forum, otherwise nobody would say anything. Posting by itself already presumes someone else cares about what you have to say.

[SoulPlaya]

Because he spends a lot of time on gaf and cares enough about their opinions? Like many others on this forum, otherwise nobody would say anything. Posting by itself already presumes someone else cares about what you have to say.

Yeah, maybe on certain topics (movies, games music, etc.), but something so personal and monumental to a person should really be based more on personal research or discussions with actual qualified individuals, instead of random strangers who we have no idea who they are. Like it's been brought up, most people here could just be pulling things out of their ass. Few here even care about the OP, and are just trying to push him to side with their own biases.

[Sarye]

Nah, I just don't want to be in the same building as them. Not, I'm totally OK, worshipping on my own. It's not the norm, but it's not a strict requirement. My relationship with God isn't going to be dictated in dressing up and going somewhere for a couple hours every Sunday. I read the Bible, I have quiet time. I spend time with other Christians.

I think that's what people are talking about when they are concerned about you not having other fellowships. Worshiping alone isn't a requirement but it's easy to stray and fall out of it if all you have to go by is yourself. If you are also spending time with other Christians, even unofficially then that IMO counts as fellowship.

[Dunk#7]

Because he spends a lot of time on gaf and cares enough about their opinions? Like many others on this forum, otherwise nobody would say anything. Posting by itself already presumes someone else cares about what you have to say.

I appreciate all of the great minds on GAF

We do not all agree, but there are a lot of intelligent people on these forums. It is nice to come here and bounce ideas off people that I respect for their knowledge and intelligence.

[JGS]

My slavery is real. (And you're being disingenuous since Christian's don't believe they could be free if they just left the religion).

Lol, that is apparently what I'm known for/accused of anyway although I honestly don't quite understand what you're saying there.

You are definitely free from the religion if you leave it, but Christians tend to believe you are a slave one way or the other and being a slave to God is way better and less painful (In reality, not that hellfire stuff) than pretending you're a slave to nothing or, in your case, being a slave to the "real".

[Kinitari]

So as it stands: One group isn't happy because I haven't straight up renounced Christ. Is there a ceremony for that? One group is pretty sure I'll get around to it sooner or later. But the only way to stop doing that is to stay involved in an organization which is deplorable to me. The thing is, the people that are more or less for me staying on Team Church, are pushing me towards Team Renounce Christ. I'm going to be ok worshipping in my own way, I think.

Why can't I be in my own group? :(

[soul creator]

So as it stands: One group isn't happy because I haven't straight up renounced Christ. Is there a ceremony for that? One group is pretty sure I'll get around to it sooner or later. But the only way to stop doing that is to stay involved in an organization which is deplorable to me. The thing is, the people that are more or less for me staying on Team Church, are pushing me towards Team Renounce Christ. I'm going to be ok worshipping in my own way, I think.

Hmm. Are you interested in being Christian, or are you interested in whether the things you believe in are true? You seem like a decent guy, so this discussion is mostly academic for me. "Liberal" religions always fascinate me, especially when they're liberalized versions of ancient religions that have a ton of baggage associated with them, and not brand new ones.

I suppose that's where some of the comments in response to you are coming from. On some level, there is a degree of slippery slope, when your beliefs get more "liberal". Is there anything that could ever convince you to give up Christianity? Again, not because I'm itching to convert you, but I'm just curious as to the core motivations behind "belief" in the first place.

oh yeah, and when I say "true", I don't mean it in the "I feel it in my heart" sense

[Az]

So as it stands: One group isn't happy because I haven't straight up renounced Christ. Is there a ceremony for that? One group is pretty sure I'll get around to it sooner or later. But the only way to stop doing that is to stay involved in an organization which is deplorable to me. The thing is, the people that are more or less for me staying on Team Church, are pushing me towards Team Renounce Christ. I'm going to be ok worshipping in my own way, I think.

No you. We need to quote pages of verses or label your Atheism level on a diagram.

*shakes fist

[Game Analyst]

But what does that have to do with the original thing I was discussing with BruiserBear? He was wondering how some Christians can "knowingly" be pro-choice. I compared it with some Christians who "knowingly" commit other sins, such as adultery. I'm comparing two acts of sin that are knowingly being chosen. If both sins are knowingly committed, then they would be considered equal in the eyes of God right?

They are equal in the sense that both people know God is against it and they are choosing to do what they feel is right (the Bible calls these type of sins "sins of rebellion"). They are sinning willingly. So, they're sin is different from a Christian who is ignorant on these issues.

[Zaptruder]

So as it stands: One group isn't happy because I haven't straight up renounced Christ. Is there a ceremony for that? One group is pretty sure I'll get around to it sooner or later. But the only way to stop doing that is to stay involved in an organization which is deplorable to me. The thing is, the people that are more or less for me staying on Team Church, are pushing me towards Team Renounce Christ. I'm going to be ok worshipping in my own way, I think.

You're good people ChiTown. I trust you know what's up with your own internal affairs. Maybe try a blend of eastern and western philosophies in seeking 'the mind of god'.

I think people in general like the idea of god - the idea that there's a benevolent force out there taking care of, or looking after them. But the realities of the church starkly contrast against the initial expectations - if people can snap out of that cultural entrenchment and remember why they got into it in the first place, they can see just how stark that contrast is first hand.

Many move onto new-agey kind of stuff to find a philosophy that isn't infused with such a dogmatic, judgemental 'personal god'. They find efficacy in meditation and mind clearing exercises - things that aren't common to normal churchs (although is present in less effective forms in the more monk or nun like branches).

I think a good direction for you is to dig into some new cognitive science books - stuff about brain function, about happiness (Recommend The Happiness Hypothesis from Johnathan Haidt, and The Social Animal from David Brooks).

That's not really religious stuff, but it gives you a good insight into human nature as understood by the cutting edge of people looking into the mind. I don't think they'll dissuade you from religion (at least not those two recommends) so much as help you understand the context of the mind that has and allows for this relationship with 'God'.

[Zona]

So as it stands: One group isn't happy because I haven't straight up renounced Christ. Is there a ceremony for that? One group is pretty sure I'll get around to it sooner or later. But the only way to stop doing that is to stay involved in an organization which is deplorable to me. The thing is, the people that are more or less for me staying on Team Church, are pushing me towards Team Renounce Christ. I'm going to be ok worshipping in my own way, I think.

May you be happy with your beliefs no matter what form they take. Also this thread has provided some fascinating (and perplexing to me at least) reading. So thank you for that.

[Orayn]

I guess I see what you are getting at But the judgement on that is coming from God. I am not making that judgement on people. I have no idea who is and is not saved. That is up to them to sort out. Just because I have a belief about what it takes to pass that judgement from God does not mean I am actively judging people.

Fred Phelps uses this exact argument, so you're not helping your case.

[IceCold]

What's the Christian stance on the OT? There's a lot of terrible stuff in it. Even the 10 commandments says some dubious things (such as a husband owning their wife for example).

[SmokyDave]

Why can't I be in my own group? :(

Are you in the group that thinks Chi should do what makes him happy and his spirituality is his own business?

If so, count me in with your group.

It's not normally a position I'd take, but when someone is evidently a 'good person' regardless of their beliefs or how they practice them, let them keep on trucking.

[Napoleonthechimp]

You could just embrace the fact that one day you'll be dead, live now and be good to yourself and others.

For me the word "worship" has so many negative connotations that I can't move past it. The idea of sticking to dogmatic religious thought feels like a chain wrapped around my neck, or like a dog collar being used to choke me into submission.

[Angry Fork]

What's the Christian stance on the OT? There's a lot of terrible stuff in it. Even the 10 commandments says some dubious things (such as a husband owning their wife for example).

That stuff can be ignored because something something doesn't work in real world it's wrong evil etc. (But they don't bring up that it did work in the real world for a long time and many suffered because of it, and still exists in many Islamic countries).

Nothing wrong with the rest of the book though it's the inspired word of god of course.

[Count Dookkake]

Stage one: Complete

Yup.

[Kinitari]

Are you in the group that thinks Chi should do what makes him happy and his spirituality is his own business? If so, count me in with your group. It's not normally a position I'd take, but when someone is evidently a 'good person' regardless of their beliefs or how they practice them, let them keep on trucking.

Exactly! It's obvious the Chi is morally in the same ballpark as me, and it's obvious that he isn't some innocent or naiive person, easily swayed. He is smart, kind and empathetic. Can't ask for anything more from him, and at this point it's all about what makes him happy.

[XNarte]

They are equal in the sense that both people know God is against it and they are choosing to do what they feel is right (the Bible calls these type of sins "sins of rebellion"). They are sinning willingly. So, they're sin is different from a Christian who is ignorant on these issues.

I still don't understand why you brought up the different types of sin though, because we were never talking about Christians who were ignorant of their sins, only Christians willingly sinning.

He said he couldn't comprehend why a Christian would be pro-choice (or sinning willingly), and I said the same way a christian would willingly sin in other ways, and I chose other commandment related sins as an example. Wouldn't "willingly" having an abortion be the same in God's eyes as "willingly" committing adultery?

[Emwitus]

What's the Christian stance on the OT? There's a lot of terrible stuff in it. Even the 10 commandments says some dubious things (such as a husband owning their wife for example).

As a christian myself, I see the old testament and new testament in equal standing. The main thing christ did from what i understand is fulfill the old testament. By that i mean, got rid of sacrifical lambs and physical ordinances we had to do to stay faithfull to God. God so that regardless of how much instructions he gave man, man would always fall even after seeing what God could do first hand.

The new testament is a fulfillment of the old testament and not a replacement.