[nacire]

Got it. So in real life, if someone is in my face and wants to punch or stab me, all I have to do wait for them to start swinging, then slowly step backwards a bit. Then I can safely step forwards afterwards and wait for them to start swinging again. Then rinse and repeat. Good to know!

Isn't that how real life works? As the game stands now if you were in a fight in real life and someone started to swing, you move out of the way and still get hit. Sound about right?

[DSmalls84]

i don't have any MF gear to make farming goblins worthwhile. i do have 2.4mil so maybe i should look into that? i guess if i'm switching gear to kill goblins it won't really matter what stats it has except str and MF

I have had rare items and legendary items drop with 58% mf on three pieces of my gear and no valor stacks. I still get some runs where only magic items drop but I usually get at least 1 rare.

[rCIZZLE]

Got it. So in real life, if someone is in my face and wants to punch or stab me, all I have to do wait for them to start swinging, then slowly step backwards a bit. Then I can safely step forwards afterwards and wait for them to start swinging again. Then rinse and repeat. Good to know!

I know you're attempting to be clever but I'll respond anyways. I'm saying if you have the reaction time to move from the target of the attack and the timeframe to do so, dodging should be a possibility. Maybe if they were an extra buffoon you could "slowly" step out of their range but that's not what I'm talking about in the game.

Now that you bring it up, waiting for your opponent to commit before you dodge is a valid strategy. Watch some professional fights whether it be MMA, boxing, or (real) wrestling. It happens all the time.

[dwebo]

It also takes too long. Unless you have more than an hour to spare, farming is pointless.

eh, it only takes 10-15 minutes to get up to 5 stacks. after that, you've got the same chances on each elite kill as someone that's been farming for two hours

as someone that did a few 2-3 hour full act 2 clears last week, I can only imagine how soul-crushingly boring that gets after awhile... so there's definitely something to be said for shorter runs that preserve your sanity

[Kenaras]

Isn't that how real life works? As the game stands now if you were in a fight in real life and someone started to swing, you move out of the way and still get hit. Sound about right?

No, it isn't how real life works. Not in the slightest. If you think it is, try talking to a trained fighter and ask them to punch you. Wait for them to start swinging, then try walking away. Let me know how that works out for you.

The way the game currently works isn't life real life either, but I never said it was. What it is, though, is a vastly superior mechanic from a gameplay standpoint.

[zoukka]

Aww yeah it's so nice to see a good bid on your auctions very early on. Papa's getting another upgrade tomorrow!

Also I'm curious, if any gaffers actually play WD in act 3? I'm very interested in your builds.

[rCIZZLE]

No, it isn't how real life works. Not in the slightest. If you think it is, try talking to a trained fighter and ask them to punch you. Wait for them to start swinging, then try walking away. Let me know how that works out for you. The way the game currently works isn't life real life either, but I never said it was. What it is, though, is a vastly superior mechanic from a gameplay standpoint.

And there is a game version of this. They're smaller, quick creatures. If you want to compare what I'm talking to in real life it'd be someone with a big damn hammer or axe trying to hit you.

The complete lack of a hitbox has an upside how?

[Kenaras]

I know you're attempting to be clever but I'll respond anyways. I'm saying if you have the reaction time to move from the target of the attack and the timeframe to do so, dodging should be a possibility. Maybe if they were an extra buffoon you could "slowly" step out of their range but that's not what I'm talking about in the game. Now that you bring it up, waiting for your opponent to commit before you dodge is a valid strategy. Watch some professional fights whether it be MMA, boxing, or (real) wrestling. It happens all the time.

Actually, what I'm doing is writing you off as a lost cause and not bothering to write serious replies to your posts. You don't like how it works. I get that, and I get why. You, however, will never understand the flipside of the coin.

Also, pointing and clicking away from an enemy isn't "dodging"; it's walking away, and it requires neither skill nor reaction time to any significant degree. "Dodging" is that stat you see on your character details, and the "Dodge" text you see over your head when it works; probably 30%-40% as a Demon Hunter.

Edit: The game has hitboxes. Ever avoided a fireball? Outside of lag, you won't get hit by one unless it connects with your hitbox. What it doesn't do is use the hitboxes in the way you think they should be used.

[CrookedRain]

No, it isn't how real life works. Not in the slightest. If you think it is, try talking to a trained fighter and ask them to punch you. Wait for them to start swinging, then try walking away. Let me know how that works out for you. The way the game currently works isn't life real life either, but I never said it was. What it is, though, is a vastly superior mechanic from a gameplay standpoint.

The point is that the animations don't match. If they're going to punch me so fast that I can't possibly dodge it, then make the attack animation that fast. Don't make it a long drawn out attack animation that allows you to vault 20 feet away before the attack actually lands.

[CrookedRain]

Actually, what I'm doing is writing you off as a lost cause and not bothering to write serious replies to your posts. You don't like how it works. I get that, and I get why. You, however, will never understand the flipside of the coin. Also, pointing and clicking away from an enemy isn't "dodging"; it's walking away, and it requires neither skill nor reaction time to any significant degree. "Dodging" is that stat you see on your character details, and the "Dodge" text you see over your head when it works; probably 30%-40% as a Demon Hunter.

Actually, his biggest complaint seems to be about evasive skills like Vault and not just walking away. The description for Vault even leads you to believe that you can dodge attacks using it.

[TommyT]

It's shitty design in my opinion. Although I wish real life boxing matches worked like this. It would be hilarious to watch.

Right, I'm not saying it's one way or the other. I'm just saying how it works. To compare it to real life, or any other game really is pointless because it works like this here (for better or for worse however you see it).

So if you say how you dodge an attack based off of where you were relative to the end of the attack animation the game doesn't care. So the only thing that "should" happen is what does - you take damage. Can argue that mechanic till the cows come home, can say what a skill "should" do, or what it's text says or whatever you want... but it doesn't matter at all because that is how this game is designed.

edit: Vault aside - Blizzard justifies why this is done. You don't have to agree with it, but it's something that has to be accepted by design.

[Won]

Actually, his biggest complaint seems to be about evasive skills like Vault and not just walking away. The description for Vault even leads you to believe that you can dodge attacks using it.

Vault is like the worst skill in the game when it comes to give proper feedback to the player. It always surprises me that it got in the game the way it did. That Blizzard polish.....

[rCIZZLE]

Actually, what I'm doing is writing you off as a lost cause and not bothering to write serious replies to your posts.

It's ok if you can't think of anything valid to say.

You don't like how it works. I get that, and I get why. You, however, will never understand the flipside of the coin.

What do you mean by a flip side? People that enjoy this aspect? If so then you're right, I'll never understand it.

Also, pointing and clicking away from an enemy isn't "dodging"; it's walking away, and it requires neither skill nor reaction time to any significant degree. "Dodging" is that stat you see on your character details, and the "Dodge" text you see over your head when it works; probably 30%-40% as a Demon Hunter.

I'm moving away from an attack that's in motion. That's not dodging...? If the game used hitboxes then dodging quick attacks would be a skill. Dodging mid-speed attacks would require some level of reaction time. Not pro-gamer level, I suppose. Dodging is pretty much what D2 pvp came down to and that was the most skillful part of the whole series.

You know "dodging" is a real thing and not just a stat in D3 right?

Edit: The game has hitboxes. Ever avoided a fireball? Outside of lag, you won't get hit by one unless it connects with your hitbox. What it doesn't do is use the hitboxes in the way you think they should be used.

Arrows behave the same way. I've sidestepped arrows and still gotten hit by them. This is all on ~20 ping by the way.

The attack hitbox and the defender hurtbox should overlap for damage to be determined. That's how polished games do it and that's D3 should be. :\

[CrookedRain]

Right, I'm not saying it's one way or the other. I'm just saying how it works. To compare it to real life, or any other game really is pointless because it works like this here (for better or for worse however you see it). So if you say how you dodge an attack based off of where you were relative to the end of the attack animation the game doesn't care. So the only thing that "should" happen is what does - you take damage. Can argue that mechanic till the cows come home, can say what a skill "should" do, or what it's text says or whatever you want... but it doesn't matter at all because that is how this game is designed.

Why does anyone complain about how shitty legendary items are? That's just the way the game was designed.

[nacire]

No, it isn't how real life works. Not in the slightest. If you think it is, try talking to a trained fighter and ask them to punch you. Wait for them to start swinging, then try walking away. Let me know how that works out for you. The way the game currently works isn't life real life either, but I never said it was. What it is, though, is a vastly superior mechanic from a gameplay standpoint.

Id say it depends on the size and skill of the fighter. Is every demon in game supposed to be Sugar Shane Mosely or something?

[Kenaras]

The point is that the animations don't match. If they're going to punch me so fast that I can't possibly dodge it, then make the attack animation that fast. Don't make it a long drawn out attack animation that allows you to vault 20 feet away before the attack actually lands. Actually, his biggest complaint seems to be about evasive skills like Vault and not just walking away. The description for Vault even leads you to believe that you can dodge attacks using it.

There's actually another thread where this all started, which is where I responded to these things before descending into snark. In any case, in a perfect world I agree that the animations should match. The problem is that if the animations were fast enough that you couldn't avoid them this way, they'd look just plain janky. There's other options, certainly... but I can't think of any good solutions which wouldn't require redoing the combat system from the ground up.

And yeah, I also posted in the other thread about Vault. It doesn't work intuitively at all, I agree. But he stated in that thread that his problem was with the entire system, and that Vault was just an example which showed how ridiculous it can get.

[KittenMaster]

I can accept the way melee hits are designed, just that Vault should probably be able to put you in some frames where you auto-dodge the attacks or at least have a doubled dodge bonus.

[TommyT]

I can accept the way melee hits are designed, just that Vault should probably be able to put you in some frames where you auto-dodge the attacks or at least have a doubled dodge bonus.

Aren't the frames where you're blue (or purple or whatever) actual invulnerable frames? For instance you could vault over a plague pool or molten and not take damage. Vault isn't intuitive at all, which is another story.

[rCIZZLE]

There's actually another thread where this all started, which is where I responded to these things before descending into snark. In any case, in a perfect world I agree that the animations should match. The problem is that if the animations were fast enough that you couldn't avoid them this way, they'd look just plain janky. There's other options, certainly... but I can't think of any good solutions which wouldn't require redoing the combat system from the ground up.

Many creatures do attack fast enough that they're nearly impossible to react to. Other than that, there already are solutions to dodging if there were hitboxes: vortex, jailer, waller, molten, and fast are hard to deal with.

And yeah, I also posted in the other thread about Vault. It doesn't work intuitively at all, I agree. Bbut he stated in that thread that his problem was with the entire system, and that Vault was just an example which showed how ridiculous it can get.

I stand by this. Regardless of how I dodge, unless hitboxes overlap there shouldn't be damage dealt.

[Air Zombie Meat]

For iframes to actually work you'd have to have a game that isn't always running half a second+ behind your inputs.

[Kenaras]

You know "dodging" is a real thing and not just a stat in D3 right?

Yes. And you know the way dodging is implemented in D3 is through a stat, right? Are you going to complain that when an attack clearly does connect with your hitbox, that the dodge stat sometimes causes you to not actually get hit?

Arrows behave the same way. I've sidestepped arrows and still gotten hit by them. This is all on ~20 ping by the way.

I didn't say arrows, I said fireballs. You can't sidestep arrows on reaction, just like you can't sidestep melee attacks. It has nothing to do with ping, and I'm sure you know that, so I'm not sure why you keep posting your ping.

The attack hitbox and the defender hurtbox should overlap for damage to be determined. That's how polished games do it and that's D3 should be. :\

It has nothing to do with polish, and it has nothing to do with faulty hitboxes.

[Rentahamster]

Act 4 is too short, with so little randomization to be truly enjoyable.

The lack of randomization is a problem with the entire game and all 4 acts, IMO.

All the major checkpoints are always in the same general direction. It's ridiculous.

[AEGISX]

Fuck it, jackpot. for my templar http://i.imgur.com/zsuo4.jpg I'm sad.

not bad for templar, 10 int = 1 resis to all

[scy]

Am I the only one who remembers Diablo 2 doing the same thing, albeit to a lesser extent?

[CrookedRain]

It's baffling how you can't use Vault to dodge attacks but you can just use smoke screen instead to dodge it. Vault even has that stupid delay before it starts after pressing the key.

[rCIZZLE]

Yes. And you know the way dodging is implemented in D3 is through a stat, right? Are you going to complain that when an attack clearly does connect with your hitbox, that the dodge stat sometimes causes you to not actually get hit?

If a stat was the only thing determining dodge then the game should have been a turn based rpg. I have no problems with there being a passive dodge stat as long as there's active dodge in a real time game.

I didn't say arrows, I said fireballs. You can't sidestep arrows on reaction, just like you can't sidestep melee attacks. It has nothing to do with ping, and I'm sure you know that, so I'm not sure why you keep posting your ping.

What does it matter? Projectiles are projectiles. The arrows move so slow that it suggests I can sidestep them.

It has nothing to do with polish, and it has nothing to do with faulty hitboxes.

Obviously it's not polished or else the animations would accurately reflect what's going on behind the scenes. The hitboxes aren't just faulty, they're non-existent at least for melee combat and it seems for ranged as well.

[maharg]

Am I the only one who remembers Diablo 2 doing the same thing, albeit to a lesser extent?

Yeah I think it did, but attack animations were often much shorter, and I think now many of them include more of the prelude of the attack as part of the hit-test.

[Kenaras]

I stand by this. Regardless of how I dodge, unless hitboxes overlap there shouldn't be damage dealt.

In action games? Yes. In RPGs? No. In Action-RPGs? Well, that depends on how they're implemented. But I will say that any ARPG with strict hitbox detection should not have a passive dodge statistic, and should have an active dodge command.

[TommyT]

It's baffling how you can't use Vault to dodge attacks but you can just use smoke screen instead to dodge it. Vault even has that stupid delay before it starts after pressing the key.

Smokescreen doesn't dodge. You can however get a "dodge" from dex while in smokescreen. This means that you would have dodged the attacked normally through your % chance. Smokescreen negates damage 100%. You're still being "hit" as far as that mechanic is concerned, you just have something that negates it 100%.
edit2: Think of smokescreen as an absorb rather than a dodge when it comes to melee.


edit: Vault can be used to a lesser extent to accomplish the same thing. Just as you can use smokescreen to run over/through molten and plague, you can vault over them as well without taking damage.

[idlewild_]

edit2: Think of smokescreen as an absorb rather than a dodge when it comes to melee.

I believe that vortex and jailer are negated if those are thrown out while you are under the effects of smokescreen, in which case I would think of it more as an immunity.

[rCIZZLE]

In action games? Yes. In RPGs? No. In Action-RPGs? Well, that depends on how they're implemented. But I will say that any ARPG with strict hitbox detection should not have a passive dodge statistic, and should have an active dodge command.

Why not in RPGs? Unless they're turn based I'd expect real hitboxes.

I can see Diablo existing with a passive and active dodge. A *chance* to dodge the quick attacks while being able to 100% avoid mid to slower attacks by consciously reacting. That would be perfect and would make playing a DH that much less frustrating.

[TommyT]

I would think of it more as an immune since it will negate vortex and jailer if those are thrown out while you are under the effects of smokescreen.

That's another way to look at it. Immune to the damage you would have received had you not dodged. So as with vault, you're "immune" to damage and effects while you're in the blue/purple/black color shroud.

[scy]

Yeah I think it did, but attack animations were often much shorter, and I think now many of them include more of the prelude of the attack as part of the hit-test.

Honestly, I'd rather have this than the Diablo 2 case where it was easier to manually dodge attacks but defenses dropped when moving.

And the fact that I'm too lazy to manually dodge every attack that I know I'd try hard to do for every encounter ever.

[zoukka]

I had two bids on my boots... was up to 5 million now. And they're gone. No bids. 1 day still left.

wtf

[lordy88]

Anyone trading a 1050 DPS + Bow in US with a good amount of Dex and a socket? Just scored a lot of gold and I'm dying for a new bow.

Add me at Stonewater#1762 if you do.

[idlewild_]

Why not in RPGs? Unless they're turn based I'd expect real hitboxes. I can see Diablo existing with a passive and active dodge. A *chance* to dodge the quick attacks while being able to 100% avoid mid to slower attacks by consciously reacting. That would be perfect and would make playing a DH that much less frustrating.

Honestly, the non-existence of hit-boxes for quick melee attacks is probably to save combat processing load on their servers, they only have to determine if you are in range of an attack once per attack.

[Thoraxes]

The lack of randomization is a problem with the entire game and all 4 acts, IMO. All the major checkpoints are always in the same general direction. It's ridiculous.

I feel the same way.

However, I noticed in Act 2 yesterday that they seemed to have adjusted the spawn points for a few of the events in the Dahlgur Oasis, including the merchant+dungeon spawn that was always right by the start of the act.

That whole area seems a lot different/random now than I used to remember it, but for all I know, I just always had the same roll or something for the area.

The waterway entrance at the top is still in the same spot though.

[KMD]

I had two bids on my boots... was up to 5 million now. And they're gone. No bids. 1 day still left. wtf

Search for them and find them in the ah, should still have the bids.

[Air Zombie Meat]

I had two bids on my boots... was up to 5 million now. And they're gone. No bids. 1 day still left. wtf

I've had that happen before, apparently it's a bug and the bids should still be there. Do a search for your item and it should show up with the bids. They're just not showing up in your auction list for whatever reason.

edit: slower than a bugfix.

[maharg]

Honestly, I'd rather have this than the Diablo 2 case where it was easier to manually dodge attacks but defenses dropped when moving. And the fact that I'm too lazy to manually dodge every attack that I know I'd try hard to do for every encounter ever.

I liked it better Diablo2's way, but I haven't found this one that onerous in D3 yet.

But then, I also liked being able to use terrain (doors, rivers of blood, etc) to my advantage, town portals mid-fight, and other things Blizzard now seems to think were cheating, so whatever.

[QP3]

Do damage over time skills stack?

So if I do Rend twice in a row, will the enemies bleed twice as much damage over the same amount of time? Thanks!

[zoukka]

Search for them and find them in the ah, should still have the bids.

Phew :)


Also how the hell am I supposed to know which legendaries are bugged and which are not? I'm looking for the zunimassa set items and remember the boots being borked? They seem like the ultimate WD boots otherwise.

[eek5]

Do damage over time skills stack? So if I do Rend twice in a row, will the enemies bleed twice as much damage over the same amount of time? Thanks!

Nope. Also rend is pretty terrible from my experience. Animation is way too long and you barely do any more damage with it.

[CrookedRain]

Smokescreen doesn't dodge. You can however get a "dodge" from dex while in smokescreen. This means that you would have dodged the attacked normally through your % chance. Smokescreen negates damage 100%. You're still being "hit" as far as that mechanic is concerned, you just have something that negates it 100%. edit: Vault can be used to a lesser extent to accomplish the same thing. Just as you can use smokescreen to run over/through molten and plague, you can vault over them as well without taking damage.

Well, I was using the word dodge there by its general definition. If an enemy starts their slow attack animation and I want to avoid being attacked, I can hit smoke screen to instantly go invisible any time before the animation finishes or I can put up with Vault with its delay and visually escape the attack, but still get hit. It just seems absolutely ridiculous to me.

[LordCanti]

There is absolutely no reason to be wasting discipline on vault, unless you are doing a boss fight (like siegebreaker) where gaining a lot of distance quickly is necessary.

[QP3]

Nope. Also rend is pretty terrible from my experience. Animation is way too long and you barely do any more damage with it.

Ok thanks! I'm only level 10 and am still experimenting :P

[Kenaras]

If a stat was the only thing determining dodge then the game should have been a turn based rpg. I have no problems with there being a passive dodge stat as long as there's active dodge in a real time game.

Even in real-time RPGs, many animations are abstractions of what's happening behind the scenes. And Diablo 3 doesn't have an active dodge, unless you count invulnerability skills.

What does it matter? Projectiles are projectiles. The arrows move so slow that it suggests I can sidestep them.

For game balance reasons, as I'm sure you're well aware. The arrows move at a speed which allows them to be avoided by an already-moving target, not sidestepped by a previously-stationary target.

Obviously it's not polished or else the animations would accurately reflect what's going on behind the scenes. The hitboxes aren't just faulty, they're non-existent at least for melee combat and it seems for ranged as well.

So you're redefining "polish" to mean "works the way I want it to work". And there's a difference between a faulty hitbox and a non-existent hitbox:

Regular melee: Range check prior to animation; no hitbox used.
Fast ranged: Check to see if target is stationary prior to animation; if yes, no hitbox used.
All other attacks: Hitbox used and works properly, unless there's lag. Includes melee attacks with a wind-up, ranged spells, and arrows/spears used against already-moving targets.

[Woo-Fu]

Farmed 4-8 hours a day, every day since 1.03 hit. Haven't had a "hey, that is a nice drop!" moment yet. Used to have them once or twice a day. Think I'm about ready to throw in the towel.

I'm not asking for an awesome drop from every other elite, just throw me a bone now and then, something to break up the monotony of crappy combinations like 200 dps, 50 str, 50 int weapons.

Guaranteed rares from elites? Guaranteed to suck is what it seems like.

[KittenMaster]

Not sure if I want to continue trying to beat Inferno or not. I really like the challenge and I greatly appreciate that there has been a game made as hard as this one in the modern era, but with the state of the game's community and a beta pass for Path of Exile just been purchased, it's getting harder to justify finishing the challenge especially since there's so many ways to shortcut through it (Coop with higher geared players or Auction House myself).

[Impeccable]

My brother's first 'good' drop. He put a 7.5 mil res and a stupid buyout ( really just wants to sell it.). Was he far off with price?