[Kabouter]

BERLIN, June 14 (Reuters) - Germany's Angela Merkel rejected any quick solution to the euro zone's deepening debt crisis as counterproductive on Thursday, saying Europe must instead pursue the "Herculean task" of closer political integration.

"Germany is strong, Germany is the economic engine and Germany is the anchor of stability in Europe. I say that Germany is putting this strength and this power to use for the well-being of people, not just in Germany but also to help European unity and the global economy," Merkel said. "But we also know, Germany's strength is not infinite."

But she rejected "easy solutions" involving the mutualisation of European debt as counterproductive and said that they were constitutionally impossible in Germany. "We don't make policy for the markets, but for the future of the people in our country," Merkel said. U.S. Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner said on Wednesday that it was unfair to put all the blame for Europe's failure to resolve its crisis on Germany. But he also kept up pressure on European leaders to coalesce quickly around a bold plan for closer fiscal integration, including the contours of a so-called "banking union".

Merkel said past years had shown that Europe made a mistake by pressing ahead with monetary union and the creation of the euro 13 years ago, without worrying about the need for closer political integration. She wants euro zone countries to agree to give up more sovereignty over their budgets, convinced that financial market jitters will ease if Europe sets out a road map towards a "fiscal union". But many of Germany's partners, including large neighbour France, are reluctant to do that, setting leaders up for a potential showdown at an EU summit on June 28-29. "I know that it's arduous, that it's painful, that it's drawn-out. It's a Herculean task but it is unavoidable," Merkel said of closer integration.

Much more here: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8HE3UG20120614

[Acidote]

Mrs. Merkel, stfu. Nobody wants to give up more sovereignty over anything as long as it is your circle of influence who is going to grasp and control it. Integration is that, integration, not domination.

[Fallout-NL]

Agreed.

Baffling that it has taken so long for someone to come out and say it.

[SteveWD40]

Pretty much correct, they need to to have a central political control to have a central currency.

See Europe as the States of the US, you still need a federal govt. and overall control.

[Mecha_Infantry]

What does she mean "give up sovereignty" over budgets?

[zomgbbqftw]

What does she mean "give up sovereignty" over budgets?

EU level oversight of national budgets. It will never happen, Germany might talk the talk and encourage other nations to give up sovereignty but they will never give up their own sovereignty, the constitution doesn't allow it. Over here any such measure would be subject to a binding national referendum which would never pass.

All of this talk of integration is just a smokescreen, Germany (and France for that matter) will never give up sovereignty, this is a case of Germany saying "do as we say, not as we do" to Southern Europe.

The sooner it all comes crashing down and nations return to their own currencies the better. It will be tough for a while, but it will bring long term stability and confidence back to the EU, of course, the biggest loser from the Euro ceasing to exist is Germany, so it isn't surprising that they are doing just enough to ensure it's survival, but not too much so Merkel doesn't piss off the German electorate.

[Technosteve]

That sounds dumb

[gcubed]

So a German take over of the EU. At least they are asking nice this time.

[navanman]

From my cold dead hands. Never gonna happen.

Using the euro crisis as a ploy to centralise more power to Germany.

EU wide bank interest rates are the worst thing to happen to the EU and the UK was right to not go with this. Further centralising tax, budgeting on German terms is a bad bad thing. What works in Germany doesn't work elsewhere.

[Fallout-NL]

Where does she say it should be centralised to Germany?

[RukusProvider]

So a German take over of the EU. At least they are asking nice this time.

Haha this was my first thought. They're presistent. Have to give credit there.

[Kabouter]

Where does she say it should be centralised to Germany?

In the minds of demagogues and Eurosceptics.

[fanboi]

Sweden laughs to this since we, with ze germans, have the best economy.

[RELAYER]

third times the charm...

[Angst]

Agree with Frau Merkel. If you want a common currency you need an integrated fiscal system as well. Hope we integrate Europe more closely.

[Torraz]

Isn't it logical for Germany to want some guarantee / control mechanism to make sure that countries don't accept bailout funds and then back out of any commitments they made to get those funds?

[gcubed]

Where does she say it should be centralised to Germany?

Germany will never (and can't as mentioned by zomg) give up its economic power, so making a leap about asking others to isn't too far fetched

You aren't going to be able to rule economies as one but leave unique political countries

[Funky Papa]

I can hear our intrepid president Mariano Rajoy already riding to Berlin, pen and seal in hand. Go forth my valiant, show those Germans how bad you want to us to get fucked over.


Cunt.

[Tideas]

the EU should just become the United States of Europe.

If India, which is more culturally diverse and has a longer history than Europe, can do it, I"m sure EUrope can.

[jimi_dini]

She didn't use TINA there is no alternative this time?

[Kurtofan]

Herculean lol

[catfish]

drop the euro go back to 'the good old days'

current situation doesn't work, people won't give up sovereignty, so what else is there?

[Torraz]

drop the euro go back to 'the good old days' current situation doesn't work, people won't give up sovereignty, so what else is there?

There is prolonged suffering and throwing tax payer money down a black hole... But yes, either try to move to a system more akin to a federation or return to national currencies.

[G.O.O.]

EU needs more integration indeed.

But Merkel is at the head of a country that has succeeded at the expense of others in the union, so that can't mean what I think it means.

[Funky Papa]

If India, which is more culturally diverse and has a longer history than Europe, can do it, I"m sure EUrope can.

India is so utterly corrupt at regional and state levels that makes any comparison moot. I'd certainly wouldn't want that kind of Federation for the EU.

The problem at hand is that Europe has a small number of extremely powerful players, a few middle weights and a number of nations that would totally get ass fucked at the whims of the top. Guess at which part of the scale sits Germany.

The push for a bigger Europe already got us into shit during the expansion towards the East. We have a shit-ton of issues that need to be fixed before we even think about deeper integration. Fuck, most citizens don't even know how the European Parliament works.

[CiSTM]

drop the euro go back to 'the good old days' current situation doesn't work, people won't give up sovereignty, so what else is there?

Would things be any better now even if we didn't have EURO? Spain, Greek, etc, would still be out of money, well maybe not out of it but they would have to deal with hyper inflation.

[Fritz]

So a German take over of the EU. At least they are asking nice this time.

As long as everybody obeys...

"I know that it's arduous, that it's painful, that it's drawn-out. It's a Herculean task but it is unavoidable," Merkel said of closer integration.

That's the key sentence really. I don't think people are there yet. It will suck for ALL of us. I mean I don't want to give up sovereignty. But in the long haul I think it's either that or burn.

[Kabouter]

Would things be any better now even if we didn't have EURO? Spain, Greek, etc, would still be out of money, well maybe not out of it but they would have to deal with hyper inflation.

I think things would be better if we did have the Euro, but not in all nations that have it now. Had the Euro started with just the Benelux, Germany and Finland with the strictest of entry requirements for any further nations desiring entry things would be fine.

[Bento]

Sweden laughs to this since we, with ze germans, have the best economy.

Our state finances are sound but our private debt is the highest in the world (iirc). Once the Euro pops, our banks get fucked and the interest rates go up we'll be in for a fun ride :(

drop the euro go back to 'the good old days' current situation doesn't work, people won't give up sovereignty, so what else is there?

There's no such thing as "the good old days" anymore unless you sit on a ton of oil like Norway :P Europe is in for a decline euro or no euro.

[operon]

What does she mean "give up sovereignty" over budgets?

Most of the bailed out countries have to do this already

[teruterubozu]

Hercules (Heracles) was Greek - this is such a bad idea.

[defel]

I think the economic consequences are widely understood and accepted by all people in positions of power. The problem is now political and not economic, thats where the real resistance lies. The political landscape in Greece alone makes further integration impossible. I dont imagine that the residents of other troubled Eurozone economies will be any more open to the prospect of deeper integration. That ship has sailed. The political capital for this existed ten years ago when the Euro was created but has since evaporated. I think that deeper fiscal integration will happen but it will not be between the current 17 members. Who knows how many countries will leave.

[Fritz]

I think things would be better if we did have the Euro, but not in all nations that have it now. Had the Euro started with just the Benelux, Germany and Finland with the strictest of entry requirements for any further nations desiring entry things would be fine.

Talking about it, wouldn't that be an option (at least in theory)? I am honestly a bit oblivious when it comes to economics.

[Tideas]

India is so utterly corrupt at regional and state levels that makes any comparison moot. I'd certainly wouldn't want that kind of Federation for the EU. The problem at hand is that Europe has a small number of extremely powerful players, a few middle weights and a number of nations that would totally get ass fucked at the whims of the top. Guess at which part of the scale sits Germany. The push for a bigger Europe already got us into shit during the expansion towards the East. We have a shit-ton of issues that need to be fixed before we even think about deeper integration. Fuck, most citizens don't even know how the European Parliament works.

You're trying to compare apple's and oranges. The corruption is within the people running it, not the system that's inherently there. Are you also arguing that Europe isn't corrupt as well?

The idea of India is more of, it works in a sense that you can have 1 country, with 1 policy, with 1 money, of varying cultures and languages, with 1 language, english, to tie them all together

[goomba]

Hah good luck with that, especially with a neo Socialist France.

[Kabouter]

Talking about it, wouldn't that be an option (at least in theory)? I am honestly a bit oblivious when it comes to economics.

Certainly, if (when) the Eurozone and with it the European Union comes apart, certain individual nations could and should still pursue closer integration due to the countless obvious benefits. Personally, I'd like that to begin with uniting the Benelux, and we can go from there. Monetary policy should be coordinated with Germany from the start of course, given that it already was when the Netherlands had the guilder and that always went well.

[HollovVpo1nt]

No. No. Please no. Spain got a 100 billion euro injection but their interest is higher than ever.

Fuck Europe, give me my gulden back :(

[ElTopo]

Certainly, if (when) the Eurozone and with it the European Union comes apart, certain individual nations could and should still pursue closer integration due to the countless obvious benefits. Personally, I'd like that to begin with uniting the Benelux, and we can go from there. Monetary policy should be coordinated with Germany from the start of course, given that it already was when the Netherlands had the guilder and that always went well.

Would that really work with Belgium already having countless internal struggles ?

[Fritz]

Would that really work with Belgium already having countless internal struggles ?

I believed that was just a crisis 4 years ago?

[Funky Papa]

No. No. Please no. Spain got a 100 billion euro injection but their interest is higher than ever.

More proof that trying to appease the markets is bullshit.

You do what you have to do.

[Hasardeur]

lots of informed opinions in this thread

[RJT]

More proof that trying to appease the markets is bullshit. You do what you have to do.

No. It's proof that you can't fool everybody. The "markets" certainly don't want a bailout that makes European debt more senior than everybody else's and that doesn't solve the problem, only delays it. The "markets" want a real solution, something that the politicians were never able to provide. No one is trying to appease the markets, they're trying to fool them. Big difference.

[ThoseDeafMutes]

I'm going to be crushingly disappointed if I don't see a federal Europe in my lifetime.

[amar212]

In the minds of demagogues and Eurosceptics.

Agreed.

Agree with Frau Merkel. If you want a common currency you need an integrated fiscal system as well. Hope we integrate Europe more closely.

Agreed.

the EU should just become the United States of Europe.

Agreed.

Nationalism in Europe just have to stop. We have to accept mutual Federal union and finally give up parts of *classical* old-school sovereignty that serves no actual purpose than winning votes for nationalist-parties, leaving open doors for inter-state-corruption and being crazy on the football fields (and around them).

Europe should truly unite in the was USA did 250 years ago. We should copy the two-tier parliament system of Congress and Senate (where the *classic presidents* would also be elected, but made *same among equals*), have newly established President of Europe (can be elected - if needed really - by all members of Euro Congress), impose the same juridical restrictions such as police forces having jurisdiction over the one nation territory (can't cross borders but work closely among each), unite the armies expenditures and concentrate in developing the economics in total scale, as Federation foundations implies.

Also, we should also work the shit related to languages, proclaim one language as the Official Language of the European Union and quit this travesty where every shitty paper have to be translated, published and signed in 28 languages. Of course, nobody in Germany or France would be happy to accept it, but English would (unfortunately) be the best damn solution and we should somehow just agree with that and move forward. Efficiency is the key, we leave all our national languages to flourish and live, but we really have to work the language obstacle in order to achieve the unity and mutual understanding of majority of population.

It would ask for a dramatic change over mindset of 90% of population that still have the *nationalist* ideas of early 15th century (and even earlier), but at the end it is the only logical and viable way I see.

Of course, achieving such mammoth step in 21st century seems impossible, but one have to dream.

[Fritz]

lots of informed opinions in this thread

As a layman (lawyer here) it's really hard to tell the BS from the Information, not only on NeoGAF. People have such strong opinions and no one is willing to admit his/her own limited knowledge or even consider opposing opinions.

[RJT]

Regarding the topic, I came here expecting real discussion, but that will probably take a few more pages...

It's pretty obvious that we have obly two solutions:
-the Euro ends (being replaced by a limited euro for some countries, or a two-tier euro)
-the political integration deepens, and the imbalances that the euro creates are solved by effective budget transfers between countries

I would rather have the latter than the former, but I want it to be accompanied by real democratic reforms at the European level. I want an universal elected European President, and a proper parliament that results from European elections, not minor national elections that are most commonly used to punish local governments.

That's the European Union I want. But I'm probably in the minority that wishes for the European interest above National interests...

[Reuenthal]

More fiscal or political union is necessary for the euro. However that comes with negatives. A breakup of the euro also comes with negatives. I kind of wish it was never introduced.

The big negatives of either options (which will inevitably make them unpopular) leave politicians paralyzed but really time for Europe is not infinite, it must decide what to do, and it must prepare the best to follow on that path it has decided.

[gutter_trash]

so Germany finnaly won, not by troops and arms but by banks and money

[ThoseDeafMutes]

the EU should just become the United States of Europe.

Only under the condition that they don't call themselves the United States of Europe, shit will get confusing.

Federal States of Europe
Union of European States

or just

The European Union

We don't need to bother working out what to call it in other languages because English is the only one that matters, because it's the only one I speak.

[Funky Papa]

No. It's proof that you can't fool everybody. The "markets" certainly don't want a bailout that makes European debt more senior than everybody else's and that doesn't solve the problem, only delays it. The "markets" want a real solution, something that the politicians were never able to provide. No one is trying to appease the markets, they're trying to fool them. Big difference.

Maybe I didn't explain myself correctly.

The markets want a real solution, but as you said, politicians can't provide it. Their only recourse is to appease them with absolutely terrible measures that range from putting a band-aid on a bullet wound to amputating a broken leg. In the end none of them will ever satisfy the markets, in no small part, because not unlike politicians, they are similarly clueless.

It should be evident by know that markets understand results, but not policy. They have grown way too impatient for that.