[GCX]

Euro can't survive without deeper fiscal integration since the current system is filled with holes, that much is true.

[Reuenthal]

The issue is not only markets. Population of Germany does not want to keep lending Greeks if they see their money being wasted or think that the Greeks are misusing it, to give just one example. A fiscal union means transfer of money from some countries to others, and to justify that to those who lend the money who wouldn't like it differently, political integration might be wanted to put some control on the weaker countries. Unfortunately European Union is not the most democratic institution and when this political integration happens one might fear that those who pay and are more economically powerful would have the most influence. (Germans).

To me that is inferior as far as democracy goes to national democracies where people have both closer cultural ties, see others as compatriots while attempting a union especially at a time where european solidarity is not the highest, I don't know.

However the negatives of euro breakup are also numerous and I certainly don't want more animosity among nations due to each blaming the other for breaking up the euro. Cooperation is what should happen but too much of a political union is like forcing too much of that before it has more naturally developed. Perhaps the solution is just some more political integration and not go too far with political integration. That is more European union control over economies but that too would be limited and come into the surface when certain criteria are met (perhaps when debt reaches X) but still not a political union. Something like this is what I see happening. More political integration but not too much.

[FliXFantatier]

Regarding the topic, I came here expecting real discussion, but that will probably take a few more pages... It's pretty obvious that we have obly two solutions: -the Euro ends (being replaced by a limited euro for some countries, or a two-tier euro) -the political integration deepens, and the imbalances that the euro creates are solved by effective budget transfers between countries I would rather have the latter than the former, but I want it to be accompanied by real democratic reforms at the European level. I want an universal elected European President, and a proper parliament that results from European elections, not minor national elections that are most commonly used to punish local governments. That's the European Union I want. But I'm probably in the minority that wishes for the European interest above National interests...

im with you on all counts,
europe only really has the option of moving forward if they want to have any say in world politics of the future.

[zomgbbqftw]

I think the economic consequences are widely understood and accepted by all people in positions of power. The problem is now political and not economic, thats where the real resistance lies. The political landscape in Greece alone makes further integration impossible. I dont imagine that the residents of other troubled Eurozone economies will be any more open to the prospect of deeper integration. That ship has sailed. The political capital for this existed ten years ago when the Euro was created but has since evaporated. I think that deeper fiscal integration will happen but it will not be between the current 17 members. Who knows how many countries will leave.

I think the flaw in this argument is that it ignores the fallout from Greece, Portugal, Spain and Italy leaving the Euro. The Euro, after the initial fallout would appreciate very heavily against other currencies until it reaches parity with the pound, and unless the ECB intervene there is no way that France will be able to survive such a strong currency. Either Germany relent or France follows GIPS out of the Euro, at which point the Euro continues to strengthen until it reaches around £1.20, $1.80 because of the huge balance of payments surplus in Germany and the northern core.

With such a strong currency even the northern core would struggle, but it would see a huge transfer of jobs to the south and the continent would rebalance all by itself and the economic growth problems will solve themselves.

[fizzelopeguss]

the EU should just become the United States of Europe. If India, which is more culturally diverse and has a longer history than Europe, can do it, I"m sure EUrope can.

Took a foreign power and a couple of centuries.

[RJT]

The issue is not only markets. Population of Germany does not want to keep lending Greeks if they see their money being wasted or think that the Greeks are misusing it, to give just one example. A fiscal union means transfer of money from some countries to others, and to justify that to those who lend the money who wouldn't like it differently, political integration might be wanted to put some control on the weaker countries. Unfortunately European Union is not the most democratic institution and when this political integration happens one might fear that those who pay would have the most influence. (Germans).

The current Euro exchange rate is an effective transfer from periphery countries to core countries, and the German trade balance certainly benefits from this. In any case, all these points are moot is decisions are made at the European level with proper democratic institutions.

[CiSTM]

I really would love to know where we will be in 5 or so years.
Eurozone crisis: Banking sector could be 'wiped out' if weakest nations leave

Analysis by Credit Suisse estimates that up to 58% of the value of Europe's banks could be wiped out by the departure of the 'peripheral' countries

[gutter_trash]

a Federalist system with extra autonomous powers perhaps with lots of oversight.

But over generations and generations, balance of power will always swing towards the stronger states

[Desmond]

the EU should just become the United States of Europe. If India, which is more culturally diverse and has a longer history than Europe, can do it, I"m sure EUrope can.

Over my dead body. That would be anarchy

[RJT]

It's sad that the wikipedia entry for "European political party" defines it as:

A European political party, formally a political party at European level, informally (especially in academic circles) a Europarty, is a type of political party organization operating transnationally in Europe and in the institutions of the European Union. They are regulated and funded by the European Union and are usually made up of national parties, not individuals

This is the main problem...

Anyone wants to create a proper European Party? First resolution: a proper European League (based roughly on the NBA format).

[The Dutch Slayer]

Nigel for president!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=TN_1mF-3JTI

Give up sovereignty? to people who are not democratically chosen and just do with our money as they please?

OVER my dead body they are not allowed :@.

[Tideas]

Over my dead body. That would be anarchy

why? what's the point of "sovereignty" if you are represented in the central government?

[Hari Seldon]

Only under the condition that they don't call themselves the United States of Europe, shit will get confusing. Federal States of Europe Union of European States or just The European Union We don't need to bother working out what to call it in other languages because English is the only one that matters, because it's the only one I speak.

I'm thinking Roman Empire v3.0

[Funky Papa]

The point is, Europe will never become a real Federation in the same vein as the United States until we speak a common language.

Few people understand this, but the EU fucked up big time allowing each country to educate their citizens about how it works. Nowadays nobody understands what's being discussed in the Parliament or the basic functions of each body, so when new measures come to pass, governments try to display "positive" resolutions as their own success and "negative" ones as the big bad EU punishing [insert Nation here] because of [insert Political Party here] demands/policies.

It doesn't help that citizens have very little say over what their own governments vote, nor they know about the measures being discussed. If you'd read the Spanish newspapers you would think that the European Commission is some kind of ethereal organisation that rules from the skies for the common good.

Nigel for president!

Nigel is a Little Englander representing a party that's the sum of the worst aspects of the British far right, from the blatant xenophobia to the anti-science. A broken clock if you like.

[Desmond]

why? what's the point of "sovereignty" if you are represented in the central government?

No-one here would except such a union. There would be widespread anarchy. We have very little in common with any EU country culturally when you think about it. (Bar the UK of course)

I don't think it would function, imho.

[XMonkey]

Regarding the topic, I came here expecting real discussion, but that will probably take a few more pages... It's pretty obvious that we have obly two solutions: -the Euro ends (being replaced by a limited euro for some countries, or a two-tier euro) -the political integration deepens, and the imbalances that the euro creates are solved by effective budget transfers between countries

I'd agree with this, although if the Euro ends I think it will have to end completely. A failed currency experiment.

[Ikael]

The whole talk about how this is a German ploy to control Europe is laughable. This has been the crux of the matter since the inception of the EU, and why this is nothing but a political crysis turned into a financial one. If you have one unified currency, you need to have a unified economic / finance ministry, period. Everyone would need to give up their sovereignty, the question is to whom. Create a true European Parliament with true executive powers, and the whole talk about Germany wanting to create the 4 Reich: reicher harder, will disappear. And the whole fear and loathing of fiscal transfers would surely be eased if instead of being based in inter - country transfers, it would be based in inter - regional transfers. Say, I wouldn't mind the richer regions of Spain like Madrid or Barcelona giving money to the poorest regions of Germany, but then again nationalism is the enemy of pragmatism and mankind in general.

Also, people that claims for a return to the Peseta / Dracma / Escudo / Lira are off their freaking rockets. Seriously. Back in "the good ol days" of the peseta, our state paid a whooping 20% rate of interest for its debt (now with a 6% we are considered to be on a "rescue level"), married with with an inflation rate well above 10%. And back in the 80s our unemployement rate was hoovering around 25% as well since high structural unemployment has been a landmark of our economy since the XIXth century. So seriously, the whole "the Euro got us fucked" theory is stupid, to say the least. The only thing that truthly dammed us was the lowered debt borrowing costs which allowed to our politicians to practice clientelism at an unprecedent scale, but that's pretty much it and, then again, a political problem turned into an economical one.

[RJT]

I'm thinking Roman Empire v3.0

Agnostic Roman Empire?

[Kabouter]

The point is, Europe will never become a real Federation in the same vein as the United States until we speak a common language.

"Only 2.5% of Italy’s population could speak standard Italian when the nation unified in 1861."

Obviously, I'm not saying that the situation is analogous, but I do feel that culture and language need not be 100% aligned prior to unification.

Few people understand this, but the EU fucked up big time allowing each country to educate their citizens about how it works. Nowadays nobody understands what's being discussed in the Parliament or the basic functions of each body, so when new measures come to pass, governments try to display "positive" resolutions as their own success and "negative" ones as the big bad EU punishing [insert Nation here] because of [insert Political Party here] demands/policies.

Agree.

Nigel is a Little Englander representing a party that's the sum of the worst aspects of the British far right, from the blatant xenophobia to the anti-science. .

Strongly agree.

[The Dutch Slayer]

Nigel is a Little Englander representing a party that's the sum of the worst aspects of the British far right, from the blatant xenophobia to the anti-science. A broken clock if you like.

Why because he tels people something that they do not us to hear?
He has been right on the money for the last 2 years when talking about the eurozone "crisis".

[Funky Papa]

Agnostic Roman Empire?

"Because the Holy one didn't work so well (tm)"

[Tideas]

No-one here would except such a union. There would be widespread anarchy. We have very little in common with any EU country culturally when you think about it. (Bar the UK of course) I don't think it would function, imho.

India is a union of a bunch of very diverse and separate areas that had little in common culturally with one another.

And yet they're a country.

[Fritz]

No-one here would except such a union. There would be widespread anarchy. We have very little in common with any EU country culturally when you think about it. (Bar the UK of course) I don't think it would function, imho.

I hear this argument a lot and from my own experience it's just way exaggerated. Cultural differences between a Spaniard and me are probably as huge as between me and someone from Bavaria, and that is really small in the grant scheme of things. I don't see how differing customs stop us from becoming one nation when the overall culture is so close and distinctive European. Who fucking cares if you drink another beer or celebrate another public holiday. I think some countries probably lack the diversity or federalism for that matter to know that it works just fine.

I mean seriously, what is so distinctive Irish that you can't work together with someone from the Netherlands? That argument lacks and is really making you look small to be honest.

[ElectricBlue187]

Merkel is probably to blame for this crisis as much as anyone but she's on the money here. A union of countries with no coordination cannot possibly weather bad times together

[ThoseDeafMutes]

Agnostic Roman Empire?

Secular Roman Republic of the European Nation


I mean, calling it the Unholy Roman Empire of the German Nation might be a little bit suss is all.

[Kabouter]

Secular Roman Republic of the European Nation

What would the title of the head of state be?

[Funky Papa]

Why because he tels people something that they do not us to hear? He has been right on the money for the last 2 years when talking about the eurozone "crisis".

I want you to take a long look at UKIP's policies and beliefs.

His raging anti-europeism has been useful at pointing some of the stupid shit that other politicians tried to hide, but at the end of the day he is the public face of the UKIP, a party that:

states that Britain and Britishness have been "betrayed by misguided politically correct ideology, extremist Islam and errant nationalism from within"

All media, businesses, schools and colleges would be required to use imperial measurements alongside metric measurements

Pledges to spend an extra 40% on defence annually, another 1% of GDP. xpand the Army by 25% to 125,000 personnel and to double the size of the Territorial Army.

UKIP favours an expansion of nuclear power for reasons of energy security. UKIP is sceptical of anthropogenic global warming

the party opposes same-sex marriage

They are also all for cutting taxes for the rich and trickle down economics. They are basically the UK's Republican Party.

[Winnie the Pimp]

on a sidenote, imagine the sheer AWESOMENESS of a FEDERAL UNION OF EUROPE SOCCER TEAM!!

fuck, we'd dominate the whole world with that team, Brazil etc might as well give up right now :D

[Kabouter]

on a sidenote, imagine the sheer AWESOMENESS of a FEDERAL UNION OF EUROPE SOCCER TEAM!! fuck, we'd dominate the whole world with that team, Brazil etc can go and give up right now :D

Not like the UK has one football team :P. And Euro cups are the best tournaments now, I don't want to give them up.

[The Dutch Slayer]

I want you to take a long look at UKIP's policies and beliefs.

Those are indeed some very strong points that I do not agree with, I give you that.
I was talking about specifically about the way he talks about the euro crisis.
But I do have to agree with you those points make it very hard to agree with the rest of the party.

[RELAYER]

As an outsider looking in, I have to say that I fundamentally don't "get" the idea behind the EU.
It's a little easy to take swipes at it now that things are looking rough, and that isn't what I'm trying to do, but why does more political integration make sense among sovereign nations that are very culturally diverse?
Was the entire point of the E.U. simply to empower European countries on an international scale?
If so, then why is nationalism "the enemy of mankind in general" (as another poster put it), when the central rallying cry of the E.U. seems to simply be a different form of nationalism, dedication to a region rather than a nation. Regionalism I guess. The criticism of nationalism is that we are "too advanced" to be nationalists in the 21st century and that the true aspiration of the modern man should be the good of mankind at large rather than simply the good of your country. Ok, sure, but I don't see how a "United States of Europe" is a defeat to nationalism. If the idea behind the E.U. is to be more competitive, then the "USE" is merely nationalism in arguably a more insidious form.

[zomgbbqftw]

Not like the UK has one football team :P. And Euro cups are the best tournaments now, I don't want to give them up.

Euro 2012 > WC 2010!

[navanman]

The whole talk about how this is a German ploy to control Europe is laughable. This has been the crux of the matter since the inception of the EU, and why this is nothing but a political crysis turned into a financial one. If you have one unified currency, you need to have a unified economic / finance ministry, period. Everyone would need to give up their sovereignty, the question is to whom. Create a true European Parliament with true executive powers, and the whole talk about Germany wanting to create the 4 Reich: reicher harder, will disappear. And the whole fear and loathing of fiscal transfers would surely be eased if instead of being based in inter - country transfers, it would be based in inter - regional transfers. Say, I wouldn't mind the richer regions of Spain like Madrid or Barcelona giving money to the poorest regions of Germany, but then again nationalism is the enemy of pragmatism and mankind in general.

A unified single finance minister can never work across the whole of Europe.
The economies of all the member states are completely different in their working and a single tax/budgeting structure for all will kill off the fringe smaller stakes as naturally due to geographical/population numbers their voice will be quieter.

My country, Ireland, has pissed off France and Germany, countries with >50 times population because we have lower corporation tax levels than they have.
We have this because we have need to bring in investment and employment to our country as we have no natural resources to mine, car/ship industry and we gave up our fishing shores when we joined the EU.

[Winnie the Pimp]

Not like the UK has one football team :P. And Euro cups are the best tournaments now, I don't want to give them up.

Eh i'd readily give up Euro tournaments for the FUE soccer team to be World champion EVERY TIME :P

[Winnie the Pimp]

obviously if such a union were to happen, this is not something you do overnight, it would be a HUGE unprecedented project that would take maybe decades until all mechanisms would be properly in place, but the question still remains, do we start TODAY or do we wait until tomorrow, when it might be too late?

nobody can foresee what would come of this

[ThoseDeafMutes]

What would the title of the head of state be?

I'm having trouble deciding between Consul, Caesar and Kaiser.

[la_briola]

Eh i'd readily give up Euro tournaments for the FUE soccer team to be World champion EVERY TIME :P

I don't want to derail this thread, but what would be the starting 11 for the FUE?
The pool of great talent is huge.

[The Technomancer]

I'm having trouble deciding between Consul, Caesar and Kaiser.

I think it would be run by a Grand Vizier.

[Dash27]

I would like some "debt mutualisation" too. Although give me a heads up so I have time to hit Vegas and the Ferrari dealer.

Sounds to me like the countries in debt dont want to pay their debts. Dont want to address the unsustainable entitlements. Dont want any austerity measures at all. What they do want is Germany to hurry the hell up and pay their bill.

Meanwhile Germany and others are held virtual hostage. If they let the others fall, it will be a global financial impact. So what choice do they have really?

[Tideas]

A unified single finance minister can never work across the whole of Europe. The economies of all the member states are completely different in their working and a single tax/budgeting structure for all will kill off the fringe smaller stakes as naturally due to geographical/population numbers their voice will be quieter. My country, Ireland, has pissed off France and Germany, countries with >50 times population because we have lower corporation tax levels than they have. We have this because we have need to bring in investment and employment to our country as we have no natural resources to mine, car/ship industry and we gave up our fishing shores when we joined the EU.

States in the US do it all the time. They give corporate state tax breaks to get the company in their state.

However, at least there'll always be a federal tax

[Ether_Snake]

Hahaha

"Look, my attempts at forcing every small competitors to lose their their competitive edge by making them use my overvalued currency, in exchange of easier access to loans (debt financing) has blown up in everyone's faces.

I hope they'll feel guilty enough to make even more concessions by giving up even more sovereignty, to save my ass and perpetuate my scam.

Fuck representive governments and democracy, that's a Greek invention, ha!"

[Funky Papa]

I would like some "debt mutualisation" too. Although give me a heads up so I have time to hit Vegas and the Ferrari dealer. Sounds to me like the countries in debt dont want to pay their debts. Dont want to address the unsustainable entitlements. Dont want any austerity measures at all. What they do want is Germany to hurry the hell up and pay their bill. Meanwhile Germany and others are held virtual hostage. If they let the others fall, it will be a global financial impact. So what choice do they have really?

If you think that Spain, Portugal or Ireland don't want to pay their debts, you are crazy (I won't put Greece there since signals are rather mixed). You also don't seem to know that this crisis has NOTHING to do with "entitlements" (the fuck are those anyway; pensions? a reliable and efficient public health system?).

Also, the notion of Germany being held hostage is rather silly considering how Merkel got us into deeper shit by pushing crippling austherity measures that, in case you didn't notice, have come to pass with disastrous results.

[el retorno]

The thing I don't get is Europeans like all the benefits the EU has given them (single market, pro-consumer regulation, free movement, etc) but will rage against sharing power.

If you guys want to compete against the US, China, India and other BRIC powers in the 21st century you can't go it alone. You need the other countries at least economically and the political need (political cooperation in Financial matters, I understand the division on Judical powers and what not) is becoming necessary because of the ill thought out Euro project (its not a bad idea but was poorly implimented with the idea a crisis like this would never happen)

If you think that Spain, Portugal or Ireland don't want to pay their debts, you are crazy (I won't put Greece there since signals are rather mixed). You also don't seem to know that this crisis has NOTHING to do with entitlements.

This is pretty damn true. The south got screwed over by banks and the financial collapse and the North is now pretending like it had nothing to do with the problems and it was just the lazy southerners who are messing everything up.

[Ether_Snake]

I'm having trouble deciding between Consul, Caesar and Kaiser.

Fuhrer.

[la_briola]

Fuhrer.

ü or ue :P

[Ether_Snake]

Asking for reduced sovereingty is a threat of economic invasion. It's an attack against democracy and the nature of representative governments. I hope this will be seen as what it is and eventually allow for this ridiculous Euro to be thrown in the well.

[Kabouter]

I'm having trouble deciding between Consul, Caesar and Kaiser.

I like Stadtholder or Grand Pensionary myself to be honest.

If you guys want to compete against the US, China, India and other BRIC powers in the 21st century you can't go it alone. You need the other countries at least economically and the political need (political cooperation in Financial matters, I understand the division on Judical powers and what not) is becoming necessary because of the ill thought out Euro project (its not a bad idea but was poorly implimented with the idea a crisis like this would never happen)

Exactly, many may delude themselves, but their tiny insignificant nations will not be able to secure their interests on an international level in this century, and in a century where obtaining scarce resources is going to be more important than ever, that is going to hurt a lot more than most people here seem to think.

[Tideas]

Asking for reduced sovereingty is a threat of economic invasion. It's an attack against democracy and the nature of representative governments. I hope this will be seen as what it is and eventually allow for this ridiculous Euro to be thrown in the well.

I think Merkel should just ask for the full incorporation of greece as part of another German state. At least that way they'll have some representatives

[Mecha_Infantry]

EU level oversight of national budgets. It will never happen, Germany might talk the talk and encourage other nations to give up sovereignty but they will never give up their own sovereignty, the constitution doesn't allow it. Over here any such measure would be subject to a binding national referendum which would never pass. All of this talk of integration is just a smokescreen, Germany (and France for that matter) will never give up sovereignty, this is a case of Germany saying "do as we say, not as we do" to Southern Europe. The sooner it all comes crashing down and nations return to their own currencies the better. It will be tough for a while, but it will bring long term stability and confidence back to the EU, of course, the biggest loser from the Euro ceasing to exist is Germany, so it isn't surprising that they are doing just enough to ensure it's survival, but not too much so Merkel doesn't piss off the German electorate.

Ewwww no!

Thanks for the explaination! Wondering what the hell is going on in my backyard

[SomeDude]

do most europeans want a united states of europe?