[rpmurphy]

Interesting piece from Totilo: http://kotaku.com/5918442/nintendos-...their-old-ones

"This is actually a topic that has been a big discussion internally for us lately," he said. "I think there a couple of things going on. One is that, often times we're creating games where you're doing a lot of different actions. Zelda is an example of one of those. And, particularly with these types of games, you have to first learn the action and then you have to master the action and then you have to have more actions added in and master those. Then, when you have a lot of actions you can do all at once is when the game really becomes fun. And with a game like Zelda, on top of that, you have the story elements that also take additional time to tell. "So one of the things we're talking about internally is how can we get people to that point of fun more quickly, and 'How do we balance the need to teach them how to do something with the need for them to be able to master it and feel they can do it well?'—and also tell the story—and 'What is that overall balance and how we approach it?' That's one of the key things we're talking about with Zelda right now."

"It used to be that actions [in older games] were very simple and you could do them very quickly and easily. Now we're making games that have so many more actions that you have to learn how to do them. "I think back and actually was discussing Super Mario World with Tezuka-san and how that was a game where, for the first time, you would run along and hit blocks and these text messages would pop up and they would have a little bit of tutorial information in them. That worked very well for that game and we thought that was a great idea, and then, gradually, that type of tutorial sort of became rather commonplace and now we're starting to have these games where it is taking longer and longer to sort of get to that core fun. So that's precisely what we've been having discussions about."

[Slayven]

One of the reasons I stopped playing JRPGs.

[stephentotilo]

Hey, I jump over to NeoGAF and see this. Thanks!

[ElFly]

Kotaku been asking the right questions lately.

Unlike that waste of a developer conference where a """"""""""""""""""""""game journalist"""""""""""""""""""""" asked "Where do you get your ideas???!!".

Kudos.

[rpmurphy]

Hey, I jump over to NeoGAF and see this. Thanks!

You have some great stuff written up from E3, so thank you.

[stuminus3]

I'm glad he's talking about it. Nintendo games either totally nail it (Super Mario 3D Land has some good examples) or totally don't (freaking Zelda games).

I love the concept of teaching the player by showing, not by telling - for example those red/blue platforms in SM3DL that flip over when you jump, the first time you see them there's a random block that most people will run over and hit that actually does absolutely nothing, but it give the designer a way to ensure the player will jump to show them what the nearby special platforms are going to do when they do so. That's good design, and didn't waste a minute of my time. More of that please!

[Sophia]

I can't help but feel that Miyamoto's answer was a bit wishy-washy and question-dodging.

[Raide]

It should be based upon difficulty. Press Easy, get a tutorial, Medium, get a reduced tutorial or Hard, you get nothing and are thrown in. I think the balance should be between not having to explain logical things and then more complex mechanics that actually need explaining.

I don't need to be told "Press A to talk to NPC" Hell, don't even tell me the controls unless they are really complex. Design you UI so I don't need to be told what buttons I need for Inventory, quests etc. Give players more freedom to just find things out themselves, while at the same time making sure they don't do anything that spoils the fun.

[dehydratedbabies]

The infantilizing in Skyward Sword is ridiculous. Instead of simply telling me what to do I hope the next Zelda companion will offer to actually do everything for me so that I can finally put the controller down and enjoy the game without worrying about the possibility of failing.

[Chacranajxy]

Honestly, how difficult do they think it is to master "press A to attack?"

[Dascu]

I'm glad he's talking about it. Nintendo games either totally nail it (Super Mario 3D Land has some good examples) or totally don't (freaking Zelda games). I love the concept of teaching the player by showing, not by telling - for example those red/blue platforms in SM3DL that flip over when you jump, the first time you see them there's a random block that most people will run over and hit that actually does absolutely nothing, but it give the designer a way to ensure the player will jump to show them what the nearby special platforms are going to do when they do so. That's good design, and didn't waste a minute of my time. More of that please!

Yeah. It's curious how Nintendo can't replicate that balance and easy-yet-deep game design of the Mario games for the Zelda franchise. They really ought to take a good look at the entire weapon, item usage and health system for the next Zelda. Or maybe let Koizumi give it a shot.

[Haunted]

The big problem for Zelda being a slow starter isn't them having to balance story and tutorial bits, it's that they're simply not acknowledging that such a long-running franchise has people who already played Zelda games before and simply don't need explanations for these "complex actions" (lol).

I do like the slow story bits, in TP and in SS - getting you invested in the world and subsequently [trying to] make you care about saving is totally fine. As such, "time to first dungeon" isn't really a metric that's important to me. It's just that all along during those first couple hours, they're treating me like a goddamn idiot who has never held a controller before and doesn't know how to use fucking Z-targeting.


The increase in playability when people modded SS to have instantly skippable text and preventing the same explanations from popping up again and again is staggering. Zelda needs a couple dedicated UI and UX designers.

[rpmurphy]

I'm glad he's talking about it. Nintendo games either totally nail it (Super Mario 3D Land has some good examples) or totally don't (freaking Zelda games). I love the concept of teaching the player by showing, not by telling - for example those red/blue platforms in SM3DL that flip over when you jump, the first time you see them there's a random block that most people will run over and hit that actually does absolutely nothing, but it give the designer a way to ensure the player will jump to show them what the nearby special platforms are going to do when they do so. That's good design, and didn't waste a minute of my time. More of that please!

I think one of the awesome things that Super Mario Bros. did was the start screen that was literally the shot of where you begin in the game, and when idling on that, the game seamlessly goes into the demo showing the sidescrolling gameplay of 1-1.

[ViewtifulJC]

Everybody and their mommas goes on about the brilliance of SMB1's opening level, how it teaches you so much in one stage and there's no text and tutorial people and blah blah blah. Mothafucka, that game had two buttons and 4-directional D-pad. One was jump, the other was shoot fireballs and run faster. Not exactly rocket scinece to explain. Video games are waaaay more complicated now, and they need to find ways to teach the player what to do instead of relying on trial by fire.

Of course, there's the other direction where it feels like the game is holding your hand the whole way through so you don't get lost, or god forbid, figure anything out on your own. I'm looking at you, recent 3d Zeldas.

It's a very tricky balance, that requires you understanding what kind of gameplay mechanics you have, how and when you're gonna deal them out to your audience, and then how you ramp up the challenges to test their knowledge.

[outunderthestars]

Great interview!

[isoku]

I'm glad he's talking about it. Nintendo games either totally nail it (Super Mario 3D Land has some good examples) or totally don't (freaking Zelda games). I love the concept of teaching the player by showing, not by telling - for example those red/blue platforms in SM3DL that flip over when you jump, the first time you see them there's a random block that most people will run over and hit that actually does absolutely nothing, but it give the designer a way to ensure the player will jump to show them what the nearby special platforms are going to do when they do so. That's good design, and didn't waste a minute of my time. More of that please!

I remember that as well. Thought it was pretty clever when I fell for it.

[boyshine]

This is typical Nintendo. „We did this before and it was great then, but we need to find new ways of doing it.. huh? ..oh yeah, we have this new product coming out that actually fixes everything” :P

Wait for tutorial videos on GamePad screen with „skip” and „replay” options.

[Crumpet Trumpet]

The tutorial segments in Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword were really obnoxious. They should teach you how to fish at the fishing hole, and only if you ask the shopkeeper; don't make it a mandatory skill to learn for story progression when the only use for it is during the fishing hole minigame

[stuminus3]

Yeah. It's curious how Nintendo can't replicate that balance and easy-yet-deep game design of the Mario games for the Zelda franchise. They really ought to take a good look at the entire weapon, item usage and health system for the next Zelda. Or maybe let Koizumi give it a shot.

Yes!

I think one of the awesome things that Super Mario Bros. did was the start screen that was literally the shot of where you begin in the game, and when idling on that, the game seamlessly goes into the demo showing the sidescrolling gameplay of 1-1.

Yeah, that was a holdover from arcade games that I sorely miss... I know 1980s arcade games are much simpler than the games we had now, but it was great watching the attract screen for half a minute and understanding exactly how the game was played.

[Karsticles]

Everybody and their mommas goes on about the brilliance of SMB1's opening level, how it teaches you so much in one stage and there's no text and tutorial people and blah blah blah. Mothafucka, that game had two buttons and 4-directional D-pad. One was jump, the other was shoot fireballs and run faster. Not exactly rocket scinece to explain. Video games are waaaay more complicated now, and they need to find ways to teach the player what to do instead of relying on trial by fire. Of course, there's the other direction where it feels like the game is holding your hand the whole way through so you don't get lost, or god forbid, figure anything out on your own. I'm looking at you, recent 3d Zeldas. It's a very tricky balance, that requires you understanding what kind of gameplay mechanics you have, how and when you're gonna deal them out to your audience, and then how you ramp up the challenges to test their knowledge.

You can teach anything to the player just by putting a road block ahead of them that forces them to figure out a new mechanic. Megaman X was perfect in doing this in the first stage. Suddenly you plummet to the ground and can't get up. Well, now you get to sit there until you discover wall jumping.

Alternatively, good games give you a new mechanism in the environment in a non-hostile situation first so you can play with it and learn before having to use it where it counts.

What game mechanic do you think cannot be presented in this way? What was so different about the original Zelda game, where you had to figure out that bombs blow up walls, candles burn bushes, you need a raft to cross water, etc.? People figured all that out just fine.

[linko9]

I honestly don't expect the situation to get any better, at least not with Zelda games. Miyamoto clearly does not share my opinion that you don't need to explain to the player how to do something, you just need to create the right kind of situation that will make it likely for them to try something new. He used to be good at this, but now that philosophy has been thrown out the window.

[Anth0ny]

"So one of the things we're talking about internally is how can we get people to that point of fun more quickly, and 'How do we balance the need to teach them how to do something with the need for them to be able to master it and feel they can do it well?'—and also tell the story—and 'What is that overall balance and how we approach it?' That's one of the key things we're talking about with Zelda right now."

This may blow your mind Mr. Miyamoto, but I actually have found the solution to your problem:

[BorkBork]

It's nice to see them thinking seriously about it. I just worry when they come to a conclusion that makes the games less appealing to me (more onscreen instructions and tutorials). Skyward sword was pretty bad at that.

[EmCeeGramr]

What game mechanic do you think cannot be presented in this way? What was so different about the original Zelda game, where you had to figure out that bombs blow up walls, candles burn bushes, you need a raft to cross water, etc.? People figured all that out just fine.

Eh, I'd argue that point a little. :P

[somesplace]

This problem isn't limited to the tutorial sections. The games never get any harder or more challenging, in fact they've become easier.

As far as I know, most people buying Zelda these days do so because they have been longtime fans, so this behavior is double insulting. We don't want to play rehashed, remixed, simplified, tutorial-filled, slow-paced, behind-the-times Zelda games. We want steeper challenges, more complex levels and "actions" (again, lol, as others have stated), new scenarios, and top of the line technology to back it all.

Nintendo has lost the plot, imo.

[ViewtifulJC]

You can teach anything to the player just by putting a road block ahead of them that forces them to figure out a new mechanic. Megaman X was perfect in doing this in the first stage. Suddenly you plummet to the ground and can't get up. Well, now you get to sit there until you discover wall jumping. Alternatively, good games give you a new mechanism in the environment in a non-hostile situation first so you can play with it and learn before having to use it where it counts. What game mechanic do you think cannot be presented in this way? What was so different about the original Zelda game, where you had to figure out that bombs blow up walls, candles burn bushes, you need a raft to cross water, etc.? People figured all that out just fine.

I detest cold openings like the original Zelda that just drops you in a game and you wander around aimlessly until you figure what the game wants you to do. My preferred method is the one you listed in your second paragraph, where mechanics are taught in "safe" environments before they push you out the door. Valve is really good at this; the entire opening of City 17 is a tutorial and you hardly even notice it, or the playful Gravity Gun tutorial that doubles as a bonding moment between you and Alyx/Dog, or the Magnusson Device section before the incredible sandbox battle against the Striders in Ep.2

[Somnid]

Honestly, how difficult do they think it is to master "press A to attack?"

One game in question, Skyward Sword, is exactly not this.

But yeah it's a lot easier when you have 2 buttons instead of 10 plus motion controls with 5 other subsystems going into effect and a real plot. This is one reason why NSMB is far more accessible and popular than Galaxy.

[Wolfgunblood Garopa]

This ship has sailed.

Nintendo games are always going to have sleep inducing tutorial areas in the beginning, and annoying hand holding throughout the rest of the game.

I detest cold openings like the original Zelda that just drops you in a game and you wander around aimlessly until you figure what the game wants you to do. My preferred method is the one you listed in your second paragraph, where mechanics are taught in "safe" environments before they push you out the door. Valve is really good at this; the entire opening of City 17 is a tutorial and you hardly even notice it, or the playful Gravity Gun tutorial that doubles as a bonding moment between you and Alyx/Dog, or the Magnusson Device section before the incredible sandbox battle against the Striders in Ep.2

I remember right when Zelda first came out. It was completely new, possibly the greatest game experience that could ever be had. There was nothing frustrating about it because it what was going on was so amazing.

Half Life 2, what was there to figure out?

[kingkaiser]

Miyamoto really should play some Dark Souls. Maybe it would remind him of his old glorious days and why discovering the core gameplay mechanics all by oneself is far more appealing than being battered with unnecessary and annoying hints even for the most obvious things...

[BowieZ]

Skyward Sword is surely an ingenious metacommentary on tutorial infantilism.

At least... I hope it is.

[beril]

Yeah. It's curious how Nintendo can't replicate that balance and easy-yet-deep game design of the Mario games for the Zelda franchise. They really ought to take a good look at the entire weapon, item usage and health system for the next Zelda. Or maybe let Koizumi give it a shot.

It's only really with 3D Land that they got it right in. Mario Galaxy and Sunshine also has a dreadfully slow beginning and lots of tutorials, Galaxy 2 is only slightly better. A Zelda game by Hayashida with the same "archaeological" design philosophy as SM3DL would be amazing

[Anth0ny]

One game in question, Skyward Sword, is exactly not this. But yeah it's a lot easier when you have 2 buttons instead of 10 plus motion controls with 5 other subsystems going into effect and a real plot. This is one reason why NSMB is far more accessible and popular than Galaxy.

Twilight Princess had the same damn problem, probably worse.

Not sure why they think "press b to use sword", "aim with the control stick" and "z target by pressing z" needs such a long, elaborate tutorial. The girl sitting on the kokiri shop in Ocarina of Time teaches you Z targeting perfectly, and it takes up all of one line of dialogue.

[EmCeeGramr]

This ship has sailed. Nintendo games are always going to have sleep inducing tutorial areas in the beginning, and annoying hand holding throughout the rest of the game.

Yes once two Zelda games have had unnecessary tutorials, the rest of every Nintendo game forever will have them. It's too bad that tutorial text boxes are permanent additions to any development studio's technology, and now that they have them they're never going to go away ever even if they wanted to.

[The Technomancer]

Skyward Sword's tutorial was fine. A bit on the long side but not as bad as Twilight Princess. Skyward Sword's problem was all of the incessant reminders throughout the game once you'd completed the opening chapter.

[Somnid]

Twilight Princess had the same damn problem, probably worse. Not sure why they think "press b to use sword", "aim with the control stick" and "z target by pressing z" needs such a long, elaborate tutorial. The girl sitting on the kokiri shop in Ocarina of Time teaches you Z targeting perfectly, and it takes up all of one line of dialogue.

Hindsight. You know that, but to someone who has never played a Zelda none of this is nearly as obvious as you think.

[Shikamaru Ninja]

Yeah. It's curious how Nintendo can't replicate that balance and easy-yet-deep game design of the Mario games for the Zelda franchise. They really ought to take a good look at the entire weapon, item usage and health system for the next Zelda. Or maybe let Koizumi give it a shot.

Having Koizumi (producer) and another director take a shot doesn't magically remove any barriers or problems that the series is under scrutiny for. For better or worse, even with younger developers, Miyamoto and Tezuka (managers, supervisors) sit at the throne of the nearly 1.000 developers with an iron hand. Thus, Aonuma (producer) and Fujibayashi (director) may not be the ultimate scapegoats. I'm not sure what negative tropes Aonuma alone has reinforced, but I know he is the main genius behind the 3D dungeon design schematic invented with the 3D Zeldas.

[Holy Wars]

Skyward Sword made the intro incredibly boring by making it feel insignificant and unimportant. Twilight Princess did that too. I may be wrong but I remember Wind Waker getting to "oh shit your sister has been kidnapped!" a lot quicker than any major story point in TP or SS.

[Anth0ny]

Hindsight. You know that, but to someone who has never played a Zelda none of this is nearly as obvious as you think.

I never played a Zelda when I first played Ocarina of Time. I was fine.

Hell, I know tons of people who played Zelda I and LTTP as their first Zelda, and there's no tutorial at all in those games. It's almost as if they *gasp* taught you how to play in the game manual, and left that crap out of the game! What a concept!

[RedSwirl]

I thought Super Mario Galaxy 2 handled this excellently. As soon as you start a new file the game puts you into what is technically a tutorial, but you already have full control of Mario and can mess around with all this abilities without any fear of doing something wrong. More games should take this approach - create a sort of "free area" at the start of the game.

Oh, and: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FpigqfcvlM

[EmCeeGramr]

Skyward Sword's tutorial was fine. A bit on the long side but not as bad as Twilight Princess. Skyward Sword's problem was all of the incessant reminders throughout the game once you'd completed the opening chapter.

Yeah, this was a way bigger problem.

TP taught you a bizarre mix of relevant and irrelevant skills all at once with pretty poor pacing in terms of story and action. Oh boy I learned the basics of horse riding, how to use those grass things I'll never use again, how to aim (twice), how to use swords and fight enemies, that goat thing that gets used twice in the game, and fishing! Now to go to my house and go to sleep because there's no problems in Hyrule. :)

SS actually taught you relevant new skills in logical ways in context (sword fighting, bird riding, stamina and movement stuff) while keeping the story pace going, and actually letting you skip several tutorials if you wanted to.

[jiji]

My preferred method is the one you listed in your second paragraph, where mechanics are taught in "safe" environments before they push you out the door. Valve is really good at this; the entire opening of City 17 is a tutorial and you hardly even notice it

"Pick up that can." So good.

[SaintZ]

I didn't think the tutorials in Skyward Sword were that bad. Twilight Princess on the other hand was way too long and the game controled almost exactly like The Wind Waker.

[Goldmund]

Skyward Sword made the intro incredibly boring by making it feel insignificant and unimportant. Twilight Princess did that too. I may be wrong but I remember Wind Waker getting to "oh shit your sister has been kidnapped!" a lot quicker than any major story point in TP or SS.

The next Zelda should simply drop you in Hyrule accompanied by a message reading "shit's happened, go!".

[Wolfgunblood Garopa]

Yes once two Zelda games have had unnecessary tutorials, the rest of every Nintendo game forever will have them. It's too bad that tutorial text boxes are permanent additions to any development studio's technology, and now that they have them they're never going to go away ever even if they wanted to.

They're not going anywhere. Why would you think it would change? On the contrary, it's obvious that this is how they do things now.

[beril]

The next Zelda should simply drop you in Hyrule accompanied by a message reading "shit's happened, go!".

That's pretty much Zelda 1

[Rekubot]

The increase in playability when people modded SS to have instantly skippable text and preventing the same explanations from popping up again and again is staggering. Zelda needs a couple dedicated UI and UX designers.

Holy crap, someone did this? Link please!

[Somnid]

I never played a Zelda when I first played Ocarina of Time. I was fine. Hell, I know tons of people who played Zelda I and LTTP as their first Zelda, and there's no tutorial at all in those games. It's almost as if they *gasp* taught you how to play in the game manual, and left that crap out of the game! What a concept!

And none of them are as complex as Skyward Sword.

[Goldmund]

That's pretty much Zelda 1

;)

[jiji]

I was really disappointed in how Okami, along with aping everything else about modern Zelda games, also brought over the entire endless tutorial structure. No, I don't need to be told how to do everything in the game before I even have a chance to try to figure it out.

[Holy Order Sol]

The next Zelda should simply drop you in Hyrule accompanied by a message reading "shit's happened, go!".

I find this hilarious because the last time I played the original Zelda I was listening to this the whole time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgg2hHHtAsA