[maquiladora]

I think most observers would agree that when you put it all together the 360 "won" this generation handily.

In North America, not not in Europe or Asia though.

[Kano On The Phone]

Tablets and smartphones are two extremely important areas for Windows to succeed at. This is live-or-die for them right now and their new operating system is gambling on it. The MP3 player was a side-project they worked on a long time ago. They aren't comparable at all.

So now being serious competition is only about wanting to succeed real bad? Someone call Acer and let them know they're serious now.

Judging from how bad Kindle Fire sales have dropped off, it doesn't seem anyone is wanting what Amazon is selling either.

I agree, but I also felt like someone would get upset if I didn't at least mention the only non-iOS tablet to sell more than 20 units without being on clearance.

[Copernicus]

I guess this is their contingency plan after not being able to unload those hefty RT licenses.

[birdcity]

I don't know, I enjoyed my ZuneHD more than any iPod I've ever owned.

Looking forward to some competition.

[Az]

I would like some real competition to the iPad but don't see it happening.

Will gladly eat crow if wrong...

[Fafalada]

Hey, you just spent a ton of money on a device to cut some ropes, but why not spend money with us and perhaps replace your laptop.

Win8 + I7 + Steam and I'd bite (just not sure about carrying the extra batteries for it ;))

[Darryl]

So now being serious competition is only about wanting to succeed real bad? Someone call Acer and let them know they're serious now.

I think Windows has a serious chance at getting a market-share of the tablet market. Why are you so intent on embarrassing me over those choice of words?

[Crunched]

They have to point to the people using iPads and say. Hey, you just spent a ton of money on a device to cut some ropes, but why not spend money with us and perhaps replace your laptop.

I don't know. The way I see it, the iPad was a success because it was the first time a tablet didn't try to replace the laptop.

Metro is a new take on bringing the two worlds together so I guess we'll see.

[Baconsammy]

It'll rival the iPad much like MacOS rivals Windows.

[JaggedSac]

To hell with all the Zune hate. ZuneHD was a boss:




And like everyone else in this thread, I hate competition in the market. Apple and iOS or fuck off.

[Gary Whitta]

Let's define seriousness of competition as: - Ability to match featureset for a lower price OR - Ability to provide new features original competitor can't OR - Ability to "steal sales" or stunt momentum of competitor OR - Ability to establish significant and serious marketshare OR - Ability to extract significant profit from market sector OR - Ability to genericize or commoditize market or otherwise dillute mindshare of competitor. Let me know if you object to any of those terms or have any I've forgotten, and then examine how those terms apply to the prospective competitors in each situation.

Fantastic post :D

[Kano On The Phone]

I think Windows has a serious chance at getting a market-share of the tablet market. Why are you so intent on embarrassing me over those choice of words?

Because this presumption that a company that's never made a good, successful piece of hardware or a successful OS in the mobile space is serious competition is absolutely ridiculous. Anything can happen, but giving Microsoft the benefit of the doubt somewhere that they're completely unproven just because they're Microsoft is stupid.

[Bitmap Frogs]

So what? We're talking just about a foxconn manufactured tablet with an arm processor and windows RT? Isn't that what everyone else will be manufacturing and selling come windows 8 launch?

I fail to see the importance of this event... heck, such devices have already surfaced on previous events.

[Hoo-doo]

I don't know. The way I see it, the iPad was a success because it was the first time a tablet didn't try to replace the laptop. Metro is a new take on bringing the two worlds together so I guess we'll see.

What? For 99% of people iPads are perfect replacements for day-to-day laptop use.

[jbug617]

My guess is Microsoft will try to rival the Kindle Fire and let their partners try to go after Apple.

[Gary Whitta]

That fan concept of the Nokia tablet is actually really nice. I'd be the first to salute Nokia/MS if they actually released something like that with user experience to match. The real problem of app ecosystem remains though, just as with WP7 the real doom comes from the fact that there is simply no way to catch up with iOS and Android when it comes to apps, and that's a huge factor for consumers.

[Darryl]

Because this presumption that a company that's never made a good, successful piece of hardware or a successful OS in the mobile space is serious competition is absolutely ridiculous. Anything can happen, but giving Microsoft the benefit of the doubt somewhere that they're completely unproven just because they're Microsoft is stupid.

I've heard many projections that Windows Phone is set to overtake iOS in a few years. I have a little bit of faith (based on what I've seen of Windows 8 and Lumia 900) that they can put together a decent tablet.

[upJTboogie]

Hope it works out for them, I'd prefer competition over a monopoly.

[SCHUEY F1]

With the possibility of having 100+ million Windows 8 devices out there app developers would be foolish to ignore it.

[JaggedSac]

That fan concept of the Nokia tablet is actually really nice. I'd be the first to salute Nokia/MS if they actually released something like that with user experience to match. The real problem of app ecosystem remains though, just as with WP7 the real doom comes from the fact that there is simply no way to catch up with iOS and Android when it comes to apps, and that's a huge factor for consumers.

Which is one of te reasons why MS is combining the Tablet and PC OS's. If PC users are shown to purchase or use applications, the 20 or so million licenses likely to be sold per month (10 million using Vista numbers) could be hard for developers to ignore.

[Marty Chinn]

That fan concept of the Nokia tablet is actually really nice. I'd be the first to salute Nokia/MS if they actually released something like that with user experience to match. The real problem of app ecosystem remains though, just as with WP7 the real doom comes from the fact that there is simply no way to catch up with iOS and Android when it comes to apps, and that's a huge factor for consumers.

Everyone starts from nothing and there was a time when people laughed at the Android app market. It's come a long ways since then. I'm still questioning RT, but I think the core concept of 8 is something that is important and hopefully the future even if 8 fucks it up trying.

[Gary Whitta]

I've heard many projections that Windows Phone is set to overtake iOS in a few years.

[snark OFF] Do you have more on this? I'd actually be fascinated to see such projections.

[DataStream]

If microsoft is doing this, they are going to need to go in hard.

Dream speculation: Xbox co-branding and an emulator for 360 exclusive to the device. Sell it on the payment plan like they are with the home console and bump up the monthly payment to enable some type of 4g service to function like whispernet for xbox related applications only.

more likely guess: a very nice looking device at a very low price. moderately thicker than ipad and moderately heavier but with better battery life.

most likely guess: competitive tablet at competitive price.

[Darryl]

[snark OFF] Do you have more on this? I'd actually be fascinated to see such projections.

Just google "IDC smartphone 2012".

[AlteredBeast]

That fan concept of the Nokia tablet is actually really nice. I'd be the first to salute Nokia/MS if they actually released something like that with user experience to match. The real problem of app ecosystem remains though, just as with WP7 the real doom comes from the fact that there is simply no way to catch up with iOS and Android when it comes to apps, and that's a huge factor for consumers.

I don't think it is as simple as that. The N64 was a massive success in many ways despite finishing it's lifespan well below 500 games.

In turn, nobody needs 1000 copies of fart simulators. If MS gets Angry Birds, Where's My Water, Temple Run (or whatever), and the other top 100 games, as well as MS Office apps, a competent browser and so on, it won't matter if it doesn't have 500,000 apps or whatever Android and Apple have.

Apps simply aren't the question here, it is whether MS can brand and sell hardware that people will want to buy.

[Gary Whitta]

Which is one of te reasons why MS is combining the Tablet and PC OS's. If PC users are shown to purchase or use applications, the 20 or so million licenses likely to be sold per month could be hard for developers to ignore.

See this argument I don't buy at all. I don't see how PC desktop apps are at all compelling in a tablet, unless they're properly rebuilt or at least properly supportive of touch. And of course W8 ARM tablets won't run Windows desktop apps.

[ShOcKwAvE]

Verizon is making some sort of announcement on 6/18 also...I've seen commercials for something related to the internet. Any possible relation?

[Marty Chinn]

See this argument I don't buy at all. I don't see how PC desktop apps are at all compelling in a tablet, unless they're properly rebuilt or at least properly supportive of touch. And of course W8 ARM tablets won't run Windows desktop apps.

The theory goes that people will be developing W8 Metro apps. By default, those new W8 Metro apps will also be compiled for Arm so Windows RT by default gets the benefits of people developing for Windows 8.

On the other hand, you don't see how merging your computing world to a seamless access rather than having distinct walled closed off devices something that we should be moving forward towards? Come on, an Apple fan should know the benefits of a seamless eco system.

[JaggedSac]

See this argument I don't buy at all. I don't see how PC desktop apps are at all compelling in a tablet, unless they're properly rebuilt or at least properly supportive of touch. And of course W8 ARM tablets won't run Windows desktop apps.

I was just referring to devices that have access to the Windows Marketplace. Which will sell Metro applications.

[ElNino]

To hell with all the Zune hate. ZuneHD was a boss:

It still is a boss for me (using it right now). I have a few iPod devices in my house and I haven't touched any of them since I got the HD.

[Kano On The Phone]

I've heard many projections that Windows Phone is set to overtake iOS in a few years. I have a little bit of faith (based on what I've seen of Windows 8 and Lumia 900) that they can put together a decent tablet.

Oh, projections? I guess I can't possibly argue with that.

I mean analysts are always pretty spot on about predicting things, right?

[TheFightingFish]

See this argument I don't buy at all. I don't see how PC desktop apps are at all compelling in a tablet, unless they're properly rebuilt or at least properly supportive of touch. And of course W8 ARM tablets won't run Windows desktop apps.

Isn't that looking at it backwards? I always figured it was more that tablet applications could also be used on a touch screen PC or just with a mouse and a PC, not that PC desktop apps are compelling in a tablet. We're talking about expanding the market for W8 metro developers into the desktop space, not running x86 applications on the tablet (which I actually do find rather compelling as long as I have a reasonable dock at home).

[JaggedSac]

Isn't that looking at it backwards? I always figured it was more that tablet applications could also be used on a touch screen PC or just with a mouse and a PC, not that PC desktop apps are compelling in a tablet. We're talking about expanding the market for W8 metro developers into the desktop space, not running x86 applications on the tablet (which I actually do find rather compelling as long as I have a reasonable dock at home).

This is where everyone should be heading towards.

[Cheech]

And like everyone else in this thread, I hate competition in the market. Apple and iOS or fuck off.

Jesus. I just read the whole thread and nobody said anything that even hinted at this.

I think iTunes is a giant pile of shit, but I have an iPhone, and numerous iPods before it. Why? It's the standard. Tons of accessories, tons of apps, easy to manage music for, a good value for the price paid. The devices themselves are bulletproof and Apple offers some of the best support in the world of consumer products.

Microsoft, by comparison, is a bumblefuck paradise when it comes to the mobile space. So are the million Android flavors and the million Android tablets of wildly varying degrees of quality. These guys just do not get it.

Apple is a company in dire need of some competition, but they simply are not getting it. In the meantime, I will continue to use and love my iPhone, and buy an iPad when my home Windows laptop dies. I have no interest in buying this Windows 8 ARM tablet with no apps, nor do I want an x86 Windows tablet that will weigh 5 pounds, have a 2 hour battery life, and run 150 degrees while checking e-mail.

[Hoo-doo]

Oh, projections? I guess I can't possibly argue with that. I mean analysts are always pretty spot on about predicting things, right?

Amazing.

[kingocfs]

To hell with all the Zune hate. ZuneHD was a boss:

It still is! I still use mine nearly every day when I work out. It's a shame they were so late to the game, because the hardware and software are both fantastic.

[Mr. Serious Business]

I find it hard to believe that Microsoft, which became the largest company in the world by being in exactly the right place at the right time, has been late to pretty much every emerging market over the last decade. Same with Sony. Stop playing catch-up and try to look at the next big thing.

[Bitmap Frogs]

I've heard many projections that Windows Phone is set to overtake iOS in a few years. I have a little bit of faith (based on what I've seen of Windows 8 and Lumia 900) that they can put together a decent tablet.

From the same guys who predicted the ps3 would obliterate the competition and sell 100M+ units...

[Marty Chinn]

I find it hard to believe that Microsoft, which became the largest company in the world by being in exactly the right place at the right time, has been late to pretty much every emerging market over the last decade. Same with Sony. Stop playing catch-up and try to look at the next big thing.

You'd be amazed at what goes on at large corporations and how slow it is to do anything. Not to mention how much money they blow doing things that often goes nowhere. My eyes opened significantly when I was contracted out to a huge corporation for a year.

[Darryl]

Oh, projections? I guess I can't possibly argue with that. I mean analysts are always pretty spot on about predicting things, right?

Am I supposed to go looking for articles saying that the iPhone will be a success now to prove that analysts are right all of the time? I don't even know if those predictions were wild guesses by analysts or actual market research, I'm assuming the latter. Regardless, I was just showing you where I was coming from with my belief that Microsoft isn't out of the mobile race just yet.

[Jobiensis]

I find it hard to believe that Microsoft, which became the largest company in the world by being in exactly the right place at the right time, has been late to pretty much every emerging market over the last decade. Same with Sony. Stop playing catch-up and try to look at the next big thing.

To be fair, Microsoft has been the leader of online console gaming.

[Dreams-Visions]

I find it hard to believe that Microsoft, which became the largest company in the world by being in exactly the right place at the right time, has been late to pretty much every emerging market over the last decade. Same with Sony. Stop playing catch-up and try to look at the next big thing.

something something Department of Justice something or other

[Hoo-doo]

To be fair, Microsoft has been the leader of online console gaming.

What, by managing to convince millions that paying for P2P connections and advertising is worth it? That's amazing in itself, I agree.

But Xbox live is nothing special in terms of online gaming.

[Gary Whitta]

Oh, projections? I guess I can't possibly argue with that. I mean analysts are always pretty spot on about predicting things, right?

Oh man looking back at those articles never gets old...

[nVidiot_Whore]

I find it hard to believe that Microsoft, which became the largest company in the world by being in exactly the right place at the right time, has been late to pretty much every emerging market over the last decade. Same with Sony. Stop playing catch-up and try to look at the next big thing.

Microsoft STARTED the tablet market really. They had hardware partners, marketing kiosks built.. they had their own group down in Mountain View dedicated to their tablet computing efforts.. All in the early-mid 2000's.

They just did it really wrong. They just banked on stylus + handwriting recognition being the killer features.

Same with "smart phones."

They weren't late to the party, they just brought the wrong party favors.

[Marty Chinn]

What, by managing to convince millions that paying for P2P connections and advertising is worth it? That's amazing in itself, I agree. But Xbox live is nothing special in terms of online gaming.

I hate the concept of paying for online, but let's not deny Microsoft credit here and try to play down the significance of what Xbox Live brought to the table. They did a lot of things right with Xbox Live which is why everyone is trying to copy the feature set that they did now.

[RiverBed]

I HATE the limitations Apple inforces. I'd LOVE to see a proper Wondows 8 tablet. I'd buy one in a blink of an eye.

[commedieu]

Yeah I bet it will rival it really well.

Pretty much. The only Rival they've done successfully in the past 10 years, has been the 360.

What, by managing to convince millions that paying for P2P connections and advertising is worth it? That's amazing in itself, I agree. But Xbox live is nothing special in terms of online gaming.

Yes, but its still selling more consoles than the competition. It technically wins that match wouldn't you say? Special or not. They seem to value themselves(the big 3) on their worldwide numbers.

Its almost a running gag at this point. There is a laundry list of products they've released to spite others...

Years ago in the pre-Internet era, AOL was the talk of the town, so Microsoft had to copy it with MSN. No money was made; no strategic advantage was gained. Netscape was the rage for a while, so Microsoft threw together a browser and got in that business. The browser was given away for free. No money was made; the strategy got the company in trouble with government trustbusters. During the early days of the Internet, new online publications appeared. Microsoft decided to become a publisher too, rolling out a slew of online properties including a computer magazine and a women's magazine. They were all folded. Computer books became popular; Microsoft began Microsoft Press. After an early splash and success, the company soon lost interest and the division now languishes. Teddy Ruxpin became a hot toy. Microsoft rolled out a couple of robotic plush toys, including the creepy Barney the Dinosaur who sang "I love you and you love me." The company soon lost interest and dropped the whole thing. AOL-TV appeared, along with other device-centric TV-delivery mechanisms in the 1990s. Microsoft created a Microsoft-TV division as well as a device. It soon lost interest. Adobe Photoshop became a huge success, so Microsoft hired Alvy Ray Smith to develop photo-editing software. Smith quit when the company lost interest in the idea. Yahoo and Google showed that a search engine could be a money maker, so Microsoft copied that idea; it now has Bing. Cloud applications are currently trendy, along with notions about software as a service. Microsoft decides to go into that business. The Apple rolled out a MP3 player, the iPod. Microsoft came up with its own MP3 player, the Zune. The company also says it wants to stream music.

was from 2009. Zune has since died right?

[Jobiensis]

What, by managing to convince millions that paying for P2P connections and advertising is worth it? That's amazing in itself, I agree. But Xbox live is nothing special in terms of online gaming.

If it's nothing special, why is there still no feature parity from Sony or Nintendo.

Like it or not, Xbox live is the leader in console online gaming.

[Futureman]

will you be able to run Windows Phone apps on a Windows 8 tablet?

will you be able to run something like Photoshop? Or only when Adobe gets around, if ever, to making a Metro version of Photoshop?