[Steelrain]

NPR Morning Edition host Steve Inskeep is taking a Revolutionary Road Trip across North Africa to see how the countries that staged revolutions last year are remaking themselves. Steve and his team are traveling some 2,000 miles from Tunisia's ancient city of Carthage, across the deserts of Libya and on to Egypt's megacity of Cairo. Near the Libyan coastal city of Misrata, he looks at violence that took place after the revolution. I was talking with the newly elected head of the local council in Misrata, Libya, when he made a passing remark about the disturbed minds of his people. I wanted to know more. "Do you think," I asked the councilman, Yusuf bin Yusuf, "that so many years under such a dictator affected the minds of Libyans?" He answered immediately. "Gadhafi's regime has ended, but there is a small Gadhafi in everyone's brain." It was hard to know if bin Yusuf found any irony in the statement. His city suffered cruelly at the hands of Moammar Gadhafi's troops. Gadhafi had famously promised to hunt down protesters against his rule "street by street, house by house, alley by alley," and he almost made good on that threat when his forces besieged Misrata. But when his forces were driven away, it was the Misrata rebels who moved into a neighboring town accused of supporting Gadhafi, and destroyed it completely. Street by street, house by house, alley by alley. Months after the war, tens of thousands of people remain homeless, with an uncertain future. The refugees are overwhelmingly black, referred to by their tormentors as "slaves." Misrata's attacks on the people of Tawargha are so severe that the United Nations has labeled them "war crimes." Misrata's destruction of Tawargha is not an easy story to tell, because Misrata residents fought and died to overthrow a dictator. In Misrata, you see burned and blasted buildings from last year's fighting. Very little has been repaired. The city has created the Misrata War Museum, which includes some of the trophies of victory, ranging from Gadhafi's green chair to weapons captured from Gadhafi's forces. No Apologies Misrata leaders are not apologetic, as we learned when we had coffee with a businessman and political leader from the city. We found him in an upscale coffee shop in Tripoli. Mohammed Ben Ras Ali has lived his entire life in Misrata and was present during the siege of his hometown, which lasted four months. The many dead included two American photojournalists, Chris Hondros and Tim Hetherington. Ben Ras Ali says the neighboring town, Tawargha, committed atrocities in support of Gadhafi's siege. "They have tortured and killed and displaced, and burned fields and houses, and they have committed the ultimate sin in our culture and our religion, which is rape, and all coming from supposedly a good neighbor," he says. Asked if those neighbors should be allowed to return, he says: "Not in my lifetime, I don't think. And this is coming from somebody who is very moderate, I would say." There's one more fact about the town that was destroyed. In this overwhelmingly Arab nation, most of Tawargha's population was black. And Misrata residents have made an explosive charge: that this city of some 30,000 black people rose up as one, marched into Misrata and raped Misrata women. Though the U.N. Human Rights Council has found little evidence of this claim, it was used to justify the destruction of a town.

Much more at the link

What a sad state of affairs. I'm surprised there wasn't a thread already.

This shit is fucking terrible..

[LQX]

Fucking shameful and the West is directly to blame. And of course they got the fuck out and went home not giving a shit about the fall out.

[Steelrain]

Fucking shameful and the West is directly to blame. And of course they got the fuck out and went home not giving a shit about the fall out.

Yup. So much for those "freedom fighters".

[Al-ibn Kermit]

He adds that he doubts Tawarghans had the rights to their land anyway. An old story says the Tawarghans came here long ago as escaped slaves.

From Africa?

[Steelrain]

From Africa?

Yeah slavery still exists in Africa in certain places.

[Bento]

I'm curious, would people have preferred that the west had ignored the conflict and Qaddafi stayed in power? And are the same people in favor of us not intervening in Syria?

[Jburton]

I'm curious, would people have preferred that the west had ignored the conflict and Qaddafi stayed in power? And are the same people in favor of us not intervening in Syria?

Getting involved in other peoples affairs is always messy.

No intervening force will ever escape criticism or blame.

[xbhaskarx]

I'm curious, would people have preferred that the west had ignored the conflict and Qaddafi stayed in power? And are the same people in favor of us not intervening in Syria?

It's too early to say if it was worth it, it depends on the direction Libya takes over the coming years. Of course NATO couldn't make the decision with the benefit of hindsight...

[Steelrain]

I'm curious, would people have preferred that the west had ignored the conflict and Qaddafi stayed in power? And are the same people in favor of us not intervening in Syria?

I would have preferred that the west actually tried to see what it was getting into before offering becoming the personal air force for the rebels. I would have preferred the west had any idea who they were giving massive amounts of money and weapons to. Also I would have preferred we offered aid under the condition that UN troops would be stationed in the country to ward off the war crimes that followed.

[Tideas]

I would have preferred that the west actually tried to see what it was getting into before offering becoming the personal air force for the rebels. I would have preferred the west had any idea who they were giving massive amounts of money and weapons to. Also I would have preferred we offered aid under the condition that UN troops would be stationed in the country to ward off the war crimes that followed.

so occupation? thank God you're not NATO leadership

[Steelrain]

so occupation? thank God you're not NATO leadership

Thank sky wizard I said UN and not NATO.

[commedieu]

I would have preferred that the west actually tried to see what it was getting into before offering becoming the personal air force for the rebels. I would have preferred the west had any idea who they were giving massive amounts of money and weapons to. Also I would have preferred we offered aid under the condition that UN troops would be stationed in the country to ward off the war crimes that followed.

Honestly, you know the west didn't care about any of this. Common sense would lead you to know whats going to happen, as we literally just did this in Iraq. A child would know. The west does not care. These proxy wars are getting out of hand. I can't keep up with which terrorist are rebels in what country the west decides to cripple because they aren't following the program. I feel disgusted that my taxes is going to all of this bullshit. So much needless violence and up next is Syria. I think there though, Al Qaeda is the bad guy... or good guy...doh.. forgot again..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrPdL63g1f8

Good times.

[Tideas]

Thank sky wizard I said UN and not NATO.

NATO's the UN military wing. and it's regardless of whose troops it belongs to. If it's not the country's troops, it's occupation.

Say, for example, if thousands of screaming Misrata residents run toward this town with guns ablazing, with UN troops standing in teh way.

Do you think the UN troops will

1) open fire to defend the town?
2) move aside.

What do you think will happen that will make the UN look good in any light?

[demolitio]

Honestly, you know the west didn't care about any of this. Common sense would lead you to know whats going to happen, as we literally just did this in Iraq. A child would know. The west does not care. These proxy wars are getting out of hand. I can't keep up with which terrorist are rebels in what country the west decides to cripple because they aren't following the program. I feel disgusted that my taxes is going to all of this bullshit. So much needless violence and up next is Syria. I think there though, Al Qaeda is the bad guy... or good guy...doh.. forgot again.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrPdL63g1f8 Good times.

This had nothing to do with "proxies" because it was a lose-lose no matter what. Most people knew the rebels weren't perfect and weren't exactly friends of the West but needed their help and that was it. A majority of people here didn't want to get involved in this one but let the other nations form a coalition for it but it started off very rocky. No one wanted troops on the ground and it was never going to happen but people were still asking for assistance so what else was anyone going to do? It's a lose-lose because it will never please anyone. If they didn't help, they don't care about people and it's all about politics and oil. If they did help, it's all about intervention and getting into people's business for some political or economical advantage. How the hell do you please people around the world that will view everything as bad?

To be a proxy war, there'd at least have to be some benefit. It was responding to the outcry that was portrayed all over the media to help the people from being slaughtered. It wasn't about killing Muslims because we were helping Muslims. It wasn't about installing a friendly government because we knew the people there didn't like the West anyway.

I know everyone likes to jump in on the bandwagon and there have been a lot of instances in the past, but to consider the conflict in Libya as some sort of proxy for a diabolical plan is farfetched.

The funny thing is that the people that cried for an intervention there are now going to act like they opposed it all along now that this news was out when it was quite obvious to begin with.

[CiSTM]

Why didn't we place UN Peace keepers there? It was kinda obvious there would be retribution.

[L0st Id3ntity]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrPdL63g1f8 Good times.

That's bahraini dialect they are speaking.

[michaelius]

NATO's the UN military wing. and it's regardless of whose troops it belongs to. If it's not the country's troops, it's occupation. Say, for example, if thousands of screaming Misrata residents run toward this town with guns ablazing, with UN troops standing in teh way. Do you think the UN troops will 1) open fire to defend the town? 2) move aside. What do you think will happen that will make the UN look good in any light?

As proven in Jugoslavia number 2 is lot more probable.

UN troops are only good for selling food for sex and bribes.

[demolitio]

Why didn't we place UN Peace keepers there? It was kinda obvious there would be retribution.

It wasn't going to be looked kindly upon by other nations in the region to have more foreign troops on the ground so they thought it would steer more people against the West.

It really was and is a lose-lose situation. The leadership of the coalition couldn't agree on a thing and the UN is relatively pointless since the big nations argue over the issues so nothing gets done, especially in terms of actual manpower or action. Sanctions!!!!

Every country in the coalition had a different idea and no one wanted to take the lead in the beginning and some even threatened to back out of the conflict and pull all support so they were never going to agree on something as big as troops on the ground.

Edit: LOL. Once again, the above post hits the spot (although jokingly) before I can finish typing. Sanctions are hard enough to agree on so actual presence in a nation is very rare and usually they don't do much under their strict orders. Many conflicts have proven their worthlessness.

[commedieu]

This had nothing to do with "proxies" because it was a lose-lose no matter what. Most people knew the rebels weren't perfect and weren't exactly friends of the West but needed their help and that was it. A majority of people here didn't want to get involved in this one but let the other nations form a coalition for it but it started off very rocky. No one wanted troops on the ground and it was never going to happen but people were still asking for assistance so what else was anyone going to do? It's a lose-lose because it will never please anyone. If they didn't help, they don't care about people and it's all about politics and oil. If they did help, it's all about intervention and getting into people's business for some political or economical advantage. How the hell do you please people around the world that will view everything as bad? To be a proxy war, there'd at least have to be some benefit. It was responding to the outcry that was portrayed all over the media to help the people from being slaughtered. It wasn't about killing Muslims because we were helping Muslims. It wasn't about installing a friendly government because we knew the people there didn't like the West anyway. I know everyone likes to jump in on the bandwagon and there have been a lot of instances in the past, but to consider the conflict in Libya as some sort of proxy for a diabolical plan is farfetched. The funny thing is that the people that cried for an intervention there are now going to act like they opposed it all along now that this news was out when it was quite obvious to begin with.

Might be far fetched. And I appreciate the writeup! However in light of the wests path of destruction through the middle east, its not too far off. Yes, everyone knows Al Qaeda is a terrorist organization(They are still the bad guys in Pakistan). Its been pounded in America's head since 9/11. So when countries are combating terrorism in their own borders, with known terrorist factions, it turns my stomach to see the participation. The west is making the same cyclical mistakes again, blindly losing weapons and money to "terrorebels", training another weapon that we can not control. I know the point is to keep war going, to more than likely prevent Libya from convincing the rest of oil rich nations to trade only in gold, and no longer use the dollar, I know why we are doing it. I know your enemy today, is your friend tomorrow, sometimes. The benefit is pretty clear though, to me at least. At this point you can't watch the actions of the west, completely going to war over a gigantic lie. Now all those people that Al Qaeda was responsible for, all those deaths, are now fully supported by the USA, NATO, and the UN. I accept the war-machine as a reality of the country I choose to live in for now, but I am looking at other places to live. I honestly can't stomach this, and there isn't much citizens can do to change things.

I really wish we had native libyans and syrians here on gaf. They are the only ones that really saw what went on there, I would love to know if they participated in the pro-government rallies.

hitting the sack see thread tom.