[RustyNails]

Clinton, GWB both exercised the executive privilege. I like how the term suddenly means Chairman Obamao exercising total authority.

[Invisible_Insane]

This began as a Bush-era program right? See Executive Orders numbered 13198 - 13486

Not really sure what you're driving at here.

Clinton, GWB both exercised the executive privilege. I like how the term suddenly means Chairman Obamao exercising total authority.

Is it not clear to people that this is, in fact, the problem?

[Blergmeister]

I haven't been following this closely. My general, admittedly biased, impression from a few months ago is that the DoJ had provided documents pertaining to Fast and Furious but the Republican House was using this as an in to gather even more documents in other DoJ affairs in a whichhunt attempt to find somthing, anything, to pin on the Obama administration.

Did somthing actually happen here or is this just reaching the height that the back and forth can go?

[eznark]

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmem...ts.php?ref=fpa Btw, claiming executive privilege is hardly a "cover up." Good god, hyperventilate much?

Sorry I was in a meeting so this might have been touched on but this is incredibly hypocritical. Obama was going to bring a "new level of transparency" to government and as soon as his AG gets into some trouble he executive orders the documentation. It's absolutely a cover-up. Calling it anything else is semantics.

I fully expect it from Republicans who have no problems with trampling the rule of law in the name of national security, but when you ride the white horse of transparency into the Oval Office, maybe you should at least pretend to value said transparency?

Kind of like how the walker investigation exploded?

Huh? I never said the John Doe stuff would explode.

Clinton, GWB both exercised the executive privilege. I like how the term suddenly means Chairman Obamao exercising total authority.

Why does that make it ok? That's fucking baffling to me. If it was wrong when they did it (and it absolutely was) then it should be wrong now.

[PantherLotus]

Please, before saying another thing about executive privilege, can you guys at least look it up and find out why Presidents have that power in the first place?

This is all so bizarre, and while yes, it can be abused, this is pretty obviously a bad deal mixed with intel -- not exactly violations of the Geneva Convention and torturing our prisoners.

But be my guest, let's conflate the two wherever possible. Something about a chicken and fucking, keeping on.

[eznark]

Please, before saying another thing about executive privilege, can you guys at least look it up and find out why Presidents have that power in the first place? This is all so bizarre, and while yes, it can be abused, this is pretty obviously a bad deal mixed with intel -- not exactly violations of the Geneva Convention and torturing our prisoners. But be my guest, let's conflate the two wherever possible. Something about a chicken and fucking, keeping on.

I'm not saying there is no use-case for it, there are and have been in the past. Concealing information into a DoJ gun walking program meant to ensnare Mexican cartels has no national security implications.

[codhand]

Not really sure what you're driving at here.

Same thing as Rusty.

Why does that make it ok? That's fucking baffling to me. If it was wrong when they did it (and it absolutely was) then it should be wrong now.

It doesn't make it OK he didn't say that, and I agree with you [shudders], but I would add that it was tiresome when they did it, and it is tiresome now.
circle-of-life.jpg

[PantherLotus]

Sorry I was in a meeting so this might have been touched on but this is incredibly hypocritical. Obama was going to bring a "new level of transparency" to government and as soon as his AG gets into some trouble he executive orders the documentation. It's absolutely a cover-up. Calling it anything else is semantics. I fully expect it from Republicans who have no problems with trampling the rule of law in the name of national security, but when you ride the white horse of transparency into the Oval Office, maybe you should at least pretend to value said transparency? Huh? I never said the John Doe stuff would explode.

eznark, you know I love you dude -- we have that baseball thing and some playful football banter once in a while, but you gotta be better than this.

Transparency does not equal giving up state secrets, and while we all know that Obama has let a lot of us down with this particular pledge, couching it terms of a "white knight" and a "coverup" tells me you need to take a couple hours away from the 'net. It's rotting your brain dude.

I'm not saying there is no use-case for it, there are and have been in the past. Concealing information into a DoJ gun walking program meant to ensnare Mexican cartels has no national security implications.

How do you know?

[Kosmo]

Clinton, GWB both exercised the executive privilege. I like how the term suddenly means Chairman Obamao exercising total authority.

One issue, why the Executive Privilege if:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_16...-10391695.html Mr. Obama said that Holder has indicated he was not aware of the controversial tactic known as "letting guns walk." The president added, "Certainly I was not (aware)." The president also said that both he and Holder would have been "very unhappy" if somebody had suggested that guns were allowed to cross the border, and that could have been prevented.

Transparency does not equal giving up state secrets, and while we all know that Obama has let a lot of us down with this particular pledge, couching it terms of a "white knight" and a "coverup" tells me you need to take a couple hours away from the 'net. It's rotting your brain dude.

Cognitive dissonance, much?

[ToxicAdam]

This is just more tit-for-tat bullshit that has ruined Washington. One side does something shady, than the other side uses it as cover down the road when they decide to use it. Then it just progressively spirals downward through the years.

[Chumly]

Huh? I never said the John Doe stuff would explode.

You complained for months about the witch hunt of the John doe investigation and now your diving head first into this?

[codhand]

One issue, why the Executive Privilege if:

Perhaps for this reason,

the Republican House was using this as an in to gather even more documents in other DoJ affairs in a witch hunt attempt to find something, anything, to pin on the Obama administration.

who knows though.

[PantherLotus]

This is just more tit-for-tat bullshit that has ruined Washington. One side does something shady, than the other side uses it as cover down the road when they decide to use it. Then it just progressively spirals downward through the years.

I'll sign onto this.

[Invisible_Insane]

eznark, you know I love you dude -- we have that baseball thing and some playful football banter once in a while, but you gotta be better than this. Transparency does not equal giving up state secrets, and while we all know that Obama has let a lot of us down with this particular pledge, couching it terms of a "white knight" and a "coverup" tells me you need to take a couple hours away from the 'net. It's rotting your brain dude.

I don't know if you're the best person to be telling people to back away from their computers if you're going to claim that attempting to conceal a DOJ fuckup rises to the level of "state secrets."

This is just more tit-for-tat bullshit that has ruined Washington. One side does something shady, than the other side uses it as cover down the road when they decide to use it. Then it just progressively spirals downward through the years.

Brooksian tone of this aside, I agree.

[Kosmo]

Live coverage of the Holder contempt hearing: http://den-a.plr.liquidcompass.net/p...WCSPFM&uid=346

[PantherLotus]

Cognitive dissonance, much?

I think after your last post digging up that silly talking point about Obama bowing to foreign heads of state you'd want to put your nose in the corner and feel bad about yourself for a few hours.

[eznark]

eznark, you know I love you dude -- we have that baseball thing and some playful football banter once in a while, but you gotta be better than this. Transparency does not equal giving up state secrets, and while we all know that Obama has let a lot of us down with this particular pledge, couching it terms of a "white knight" and a "coverup" tells me you need to take a couple hours away from the 'net. It's rotting your brain dude. How do you know?

Spin me this yarn of yours that you have concocted in your head that allows you to rationalize the use of executive privilege in this instance.

What about this DoJ operation could possibly be considered a national secret?

Also, why would he wait until the day of Holder's contempt hearing which conveniently provides him cover for refusing to turn over those documents?

Your complained for months about the witch hunt of the John doe investigation and now your diving head first into this?

I'm not following what the John Doe investigation has to do with the exercise of executive privilege by the president?

I also never really complained about it. I said that if Walker is brought into it he would lose the recall election and laughed about Shuster claiming Walker would be indicted the week before the election. I also said that after two+ years it was probably not going to find anything on Walker. No complaints there.

Also, completely unrelated to this story.

[PantherLotus]

I'm imagining that the documents include names of informants, CIA ops, stuff like that. I dunno, just guessing.

[codhand]

What about this DoJ operation could possibly be considered a national secret?

According to Toxic, things like the names of border patrol agents.

[Kosmo]

I'm imagining that the documents include names of informants, CIA ops, stuff like that. I dunno, just guessing.

Blackout everything except "Attorney General" and "Holder" then.

[codhand]

Blackout everything except "Attorney General" and "Holder" then.

Or get elected and do what you want.

[Copernicus]

Spin me this yarn of yours that you have concocted in your head that allows you to rationalize the use of executive privilege in this instance. What about this DoJ operation could possibly be considered a national secret? Also, why would he wait until the day of Holder's contempt hearing which conveniently provides him cover for refusing to turn over those documents?

You can't imagine there being details or information that happened within an operation on the border, that would involve international things?

[eznark]

^ That's why the good lord invented big ass black markers

I'm imagining that the documents include names of informants, CIA ops, stuff like that. I dunno, just guessing.

Information (names, locations, future ops) is redacted all of the time. This isn't redacting information, it's concealing entire documents which presumably contradict Holder's sworn statements to elected officials whose job it is to oversee the actions of government law enforcement.

What in this nations history makes you think it's a good idea to give covert foreign operations the benefit of the doubt?

[gcubed]

^ That's why the good lord invented big ass black markers Information (names, locations, future ops) is redacted all of the time. This isn't redacting information, it's concealing entire documents which presumably contradict Holder's sworn statements to elected officials whose job it is to oversee the actions of government law enforcement. What in this nations history makes you think it's a good idea to give covert foreign operations the benefit of the doubt?

If you aren't over 30 its all you've ever known.

[eznark]

At least Obama agrees with me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpwYh...ature=youtu.be

[Copernicus]

^ That's why the good lord invented big ass black markers Information (names, locations, future ops) is redacted all of the time. This isn't redacting information, it's concealing entire documents which presumably contradict Holder's sworn statements to elected officials whose job it is to oversee the actions of government law enforcement. What in this nations history makes you think it's a good idea to give covert foreign operations the benefit of the doubt?

Then it would just be "why are the entire pages redacted and blacked out? They might as well have not given anything".

Why is the presumption guilt anyways?

[codhand]

At least Obama agrees with me. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpwYh...ature=youtu.be

Everyone agrees with your basic point, that this is teh shady transparency. So spare us the "at least" BS

Also in that video he states "there doesn't seem to be any issue of National Security involved" so we should at least assume he thinks that there is NS risk in FnF. But we will never know, until maybe when he is out of office and indicted by a conservatives.

[Kosmo]

Listening to the testimony and like clockwork Lacy Clay-D Iowa comes in with basically "Bush's fault."

Never change Dems.

[PhoenixPause]

Way to turn a completely irrelevant story into a major news item, Obama. What the fuck

If this is a case of them not wanting to reveal names of undercover agents, why not just invite Issa and one other republican to see the documents? It's not like they have to send them directly to his office and open the possibility of a leak

[gcubed]

Way to turn a completely irrelevant story into a major news item, Obama. What the fuck If this is a case of them not wanting to reveal names of undercover agents, why not just invite Issa and one other republican to see the documents? It's not like they have to send them directly to his office and open the possibility of a leak

i'm pretty sure they said they would give Issa the documents if doing so met his subpeona's. Issa seems to be pulling a GOP move from the stories i've been reading today.

"We want this"
"OK we will give this, does this satisfy your subponeas?"
"But we want this too"
"Ok we will give this, does this satisfy your subponeas?"
"Well, we dont know what we want, so we can't tell you everything until we see everything that we could possibly see"

Although i could be misinterpreting

[PantherLotus]

Way to turn a completely irrelevant story into a major news item, Obama. What the fuck If this is a case of them not wanting to reveal names of undercover agents, why not just invite Issa and one other republican to see the documents? It's not like they have to send them directly to his office and open the possibility of a leak

1. Obama's doomed!
2. This is all predicated on the idea that this is more than a witch hunt. There's two sides to that game.

[PhoenixPause]

1. Obama's doomed! 2. This is all predicated on the idea that this is more than a witch hunt. There's two sides to that game.

If it's a witch hunt, why issue executive privilege? Why not just stonewall and ignore the requests

[Dr. Pangloss]

Exercising executive privilege in this manner is not a knock against Obama's transparency pledge. He is using it to stop Republicans from scoring cheap political points. They have already turnover numerous documents. This is just like white water where Clinton had to instruct the DoJ to appoint a special prosecutor. He later admitted this was the worse mistake he ever made because Ken Star began investigating stuff that was unrelated. This just like the 90s where Republicans want to give the administration a black eye. There is nothing else to this because one just has to ask the question: What purpose does it server to hold the AG in contempt for a program started in a previous administration and he did not directly know about? I would say this is a holdover from Watergate where every Congress since then has tried to bring real or imagine dirt on an administration.

[eznark]

Exercising executive privilege in this manner is not a knock against Obama's transparency pledge. He is using it to stop Republicans from scoring cheap political points. They have already turnover numerous documents. This is just like white water where Clinton had to instruct the DoJ to appoint a special prosecutor. He later admitted this was the worse mistake he ever made because Ken Star began investigating stuff that was unrelated. This just like the 90s where Republicans want to give the administration a black eye. There is nothing else to this because one just has to ask the question: What purpose does it server to hold the AG in contempt for a program started in a previous administration and he did not directly know about? I would say this is a holdover from Watergate where every Congress since then has tried to bring real or imagine dirt on an administration.

lol

[AlteredBeast]

I used Executive Privilege while creating this thread...scandal has now been tossed my way.

[Sirpopopop]

Way to turn a completely irrelevant story into a major news item, Obama. What the fuck If this is a case of them not wanting to reveal names of undercover agents, why not just invite Issa and one other republican to see the documents? It's not like they have to send them directly to his office and open the possibility of a leak

Valerie Plame ring a bell.

I wouldn't want these guys looking at any sensitive documents.

[Copernicus]

If it's a witch hunt, why issue executive privilege? Why not just stonewall and ignore the requests

Isn't that the purpose of the executive privilege, as well as having it on record?

[Kosmo]

You guys should get a job working for this filmmaker (video at bottom) - skip to 1:35:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/pier...z-too-perfect/

[Dr. Pangloss]

If it's a witch hunt, why issue executive privilege? Why not just stonewall and ignore the requests

It's to stop Republicans from digging down a rabbit hole into unrelated matters. Example being White Water to trial for perjury.

lol

Nice reply. Holder wasn't running the program. You think the AG knows every little thing his attorneys are doing? He probably found out when shit hit the fan, and it was moved up the chain of command.

You guys should get a job working for this filmmaker (video at bottom) - skip to 1:35: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/pier...z-too-perfect/

I'm going to let you know that people here are not going to click on a link to Glen Beck's site.

[PhoenixPause]

Exercising executive privilege in this manner is not a knock against Obama's transparency pledge. He is using it to stop Republicans from scoring cheap political points. They have already turnover numerous documents. This is just like white water where Clinton had to instruct the DoJ to appoint a special prosecutor. He later admitted this was the worse mistake he ever made because Ken Star began investigating stuff that was unrelated. This just like the 90s where Republicans want to give the administration a black eye. There is nothing else to this because one just has to ask the question: What purpose does it server to hold the AG in contempt for a program started in a previous administration and he did not directly know about? I would say this is a holdover from Watergate where every Congress since then has tried to bring real or imagine dirt on an administration.

That's a clown assertion, bro

Bush used executive privilege six times, Clinton used it 14 times; this is Obama's first. That doesn't mean nothing has been done wrong here, but neither does the fact that Holder gave them "thousands" of documents absolve Holder. I'm sure anyone who has a job knows their company (if they actually had the power to) could turn over a bunch of documents on just about any issue, and still not provide the correct one. Certainly the government can avalanche paper better than anyone.

[Kosmo]

Nice reply. Holder wasn't running the program. You think the AG knows every little thing his attorneys are doing? He probably found out when shit hit the fan, and it was moved up the chain of command.

When the AG is read an email between two of his top attorneys that DIRECTLY mentions Fast and Furious and he sits there and says it does not refer to Fast and Furious, it's willful delusion.

[eznark]

It's to stop Republicans from digging down a rabbit hole into unrelated matters. Example being White Water to trial for perjury. Nice reply. Holder wasn't running the program. You think the AG knows every little thing his attorneys are doing? He probably found out when shit hit the fan, and it was moved up the chain of command. I'm going to let you know that people here are not going to click on a link to Glen Beck's site.

If you've been following the proceedings at all, there has been enough documentation provided to Issa's goons that prove Holder absolutely knew about this program and knew about it prior to the death of the agent (as good a break point as any for feces-to-fan). That's hardly in dispute any longer.

[PantherLotus]

When the AG is read an email between two of his top attorneys that DIRECTLY mentions Fast and Furious and he sits there and says it does not refer to Fast and Furious, it's willful delusion.

This is a conspiracy theory worthy of the truthers suggesting that Bush knew the attack was coming and went on vacation anyway just because there was some official memo that everyone knows he read.

[Kosmo]

This is a conspiracy theory worthy of the truthers suggesting that Bush knew the attack was coming and went on vacation anyway just because there was some official memo that everyone knows he read.

The email was read to Holder in a hearing, not some mythical email in the ether Republicans are accusing him of reading, which is what you seem to be suggesting.

[Blergmeister]

That's a clown assertion, bro Bush used executive privilege six times, Clinton used it 14 times; this is Obama's first. That doesn't mean nothing has been done wrong here, but neither does the fact that Holder gave them "thousands" of documents absolve Holder. I'm sure anyone who has a job knows their company (if they actually had the power to) could turn over a bunch of documents on just about any issue, and still not provide the correct one. Certainly the government can avalanche paper better than anyone.

Libertarians believe the private sector can do it better.

[eznark]

This is a conspiracy theory worthy of the truthers suggesting that Bush knew the attack was coming and went on vacation anyway just because there was some official memo that everyone knows he read.

huh? The email and the exchange Kosmo is referring to was on C-SPAN. Are you suggesting C-SPAN doctored live footage as it was being aired? Now THAT is some Ventura-level conspiracy crazy.

[Dr. Pangloss]

When the AG is read an email between two of his top attorneys that DIRECTLY mentions Fast and Furious and he sits there and says it does not refer to Fast and Furious, it's willful delusion.

This is a conspiracy theory worthy of the truthers suggesting that Bush knew the attack was coming and went on vacation anyway just because there was some official memo that everyone knows he read.

Exactly. How many emails do you think Holder gets? He gets one about an operation that is working as intended. What is he suppose to do? Then shit happens and an appropriate response is made.

[Diablos]

Pretty interesting stuff: http://www.tnr.com/blog/electionate/...g-white-voters

Young voters continue to hold socially progressive views, at least in comparison to their parents and grandparents, but cultural issues have not translated into sustained support for Democrats.

YOUNG PEOPLE ARE STUPID.

aslfshadfhasdlfksa

Even if this data does have some hiccups, the notion that young white voters are supporting Romney over Obama is just ridiculous. I want to see more data from other sources. There has to be. Where is it, PoliGAF?! :|

[eznark]

YOUNG PEOPLE ARE STUPID. aslfshadfhasdlfksa Even if this data does have some hiccups, the notion that young white voters are supporting Romney over Obama is just ridiculous. I want to see more data from other sources. There has to be. Where is it, PoliGAF?! :|

That was based on pre pro-Gay Obama polling data. I am betting that won back a lot of young, white support for him.

[Crisco]

The whole war on drugs has been one giant fuck up after another so I really could care less about this specific fuck up. What's interesting is whether or not this was a good move politically by Obama. On the one hand, it drags his name into the whole mess and opens him up to accusations of "cover up". But let's be realistic, the general public doesn't care about Mexicans and or headlines with "Fast & Furious" in them. What this executive order does is essentially put an expiration date of a few more days on an issue that could have lasted months. The contempt charges will go no where and Issa will be forced to drop the whole thing by the end the month.