[Weenerz]

Washington (CNN) -- President Barack Obama has asserted executive privilege over documents sought by a House committee investigating the botched Fast and Furious gun-running sting, according to a letter to the panel Wednesday from Deputy Attorney Gen. James Cole. The move means the Department of Justice can withhold the documents from the House Oversight Committee, which was scheduled to consider a contempt measure Wednesday against Holder. "I write now to inform you that the president has asserted executive privilege over the relevant post-February 4, 2011, documents," Cole wrote in a letter to committee chairman Rep. Darrell Issa, R-California. "We regret that we have arrived at this point, after the many steps we have taken to address the committee's concerns and to accommodate the committee's legitimate oversight interests regarding Operation Fast and Furious," Cole continued. "Although we are deeply disappointed that the committee appears intent on proceeding with a contempt vote, the department remains willing to work with the Committee to reach a mutually satisfactory resolution of the outstanding issues." See Holder's letter requesting privilege (.PDF) Wednesday's development further heightened the drama of a high-profile showdown between Issa and Holder over the committee's demand for the Department of Justice to turn over more documents about the Fast and Furious program. The hearing by Issa's panel to consider the contempt measure had yet to begin 15 minutes after its scheduled start, following the release of Cole's letter to the committee. Issa and Holder met Tuesday evening in what was billed as a final effort to resolve their differences. However, the meeting amounted to little more than a reiteration of the positions the two staked out in an exchange of letters the previous week, and Issa said afterward the committee would proceed with its contempt vote if Holder failed to turn over the documents in question. Holder told reporters that he offered to provide the documents on the condition that Issa gave his assurance that doing so would satisfy two committee subpoenas and resolve the dispute. See letter to Issa from Deputy Attorney General (.PDF) Holder at center of GOP fireworks Holder rejects Cornyn's call to resign Front Lines: Holder in contempt? "They rejected what I thought was an extraordinary offer on our part.," Holder said. Asked about whether Issa was open to resolving the issue before the committee meets Wednesday, Holder said: "I think we actually are involved more in political gamesmanship" instead of a sincere effort to get the requested documents. In particular, Issa's committee wants documents that show why the Department of Justice decided to withdraw as inaccurate a February 2011 letter sent to Congress that said top officials had only recently learned about Fast and Furious. In a letter to Issa after the Tuesday meeting, Cole reiterated Holder's position that the documents would show Holder had nothing to hide about his role in Fast and Furious. Cole noted that the lone point of dispute was whether the February 4,2011 letter was part of a broader effort to obstruct a congressional investigation. "The answer to that question is an emphatic 'no' and we have offered the Committee the opportunity to satisfy itself that that is so," Cole wrote. Holder floats 'Fast and Furious' deal with Congress A committee statement issued before Tuesday's meeting said it was a chance for Holder to meet the panel's demands for additional documents, which would allow for a postponement. "Currently, (the Department of Justice) has not delivered or shown the committee any of the documents it has said it is prepared to produce," the statement continued. "It is not clear if they will actually produce these documents to the committee before the Wednesday vote to facilitate a postponement." Holder, however, said he made an unprecedented offer of documents and a briefing to the committee, which so far has turned him down. Rep. Elijah Cummings of Maryland, the ranking Democrat on the committee who also attended the meeting, said Holder was trying to end a protracted standoff with the Republican-led panel. "He sees this as a never-ending process," Cummings said in describing Holder's concerns about the continuing requests for more documentation. Another person in the room, Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Pat Leahy, D-Vermont, said afterward that he supported Holder and appreciated "that he is going the extra mile to resolve this." However, Sen. Charles Grassley of Iowa, the ranking Republican member of the Senate Judiciary Committee who also participated in the meeting, said Holder was seeking to get cleared before he actually turned over any of the requested information. Holder rejects resignation call at heated Senate hearing "The attorney general wants to trade a briefing and the promise of delivering some small, unspecified set of documents tomorrow for a free pass today," Grassley said afterward. "He wants to turn over only what he wants to turn over and not give us any information about what he's not turning over. That's unacceptable. I'm not going to buy a pig in a poke." While such disputes have long been part of the interaction between Congress and the government, the public showdown between Holder and Issa -- coming in the politically charged atmosphere of an election year -- raised the stakes on an already volatile issue. Issa has accused the attorney general of stonewalling an investigation into Fast and Furious and how the Justice Department provided Congress with erroneous information about it. The department says it already has handed over more than 7,000 pages of records to House investigators, and that the remaining material Issa wants could jeopardize criminal prosecutions. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives launched Operation Fast and Furious out of Arizona to track weapon purchases by Mexican drug cartels. However, it lost track of more than 1,000 firearms that the agency had allowed straw buyers to carry across the border, and two of the lost weapons turned up at the scene of the killing of U.S. Border Patrol agent Brian Terry. Asked by a reporter about why he was pushing so hard, Issa said it was because the nation and Terry's family deserved to know as much information as possible about the program linked to Terry's death. The back-and-forth letters exchanged between Holder and Issa before Tuesday's meeting revealed an incremental negotiation over what the committee wanted and what the Department of Justice was willing to provide. In a late Monday letter, Issa made clear he wanted the documents ahead of time and also wanted Grassley, a leading Holder critic, to take part. Holder agreed to a meeting but told Issa he wanted to include Cummings and Leahy. His letter Monday said the purpose of the meeting would be to reach an agreement that would avoid a "constitutional confrontation," a reference to the committee's planned vote on the contempt measure.

Stuck at work so I can't highlight the usual parts.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/20/politi...html?hpt=hp_t1

[samus i am]

I read the whole thing and I have no idea what's going on.

[Smellycat]

I read the whole thing and I have no idea what's going on.

TLDR: Fast and Furious movies can no longer be made.

[lupinko]

I don't know what's going on either but I immediately thought about Obama working against Vin Diesel and Paul Walker here.

[BertramCooper]

TDLR: Fast and Furious movies can no longer be made.

Actually, they can, but only the president can watch them.

[Blergmeister]

My post from the PoliGAF thread

I haven't been following this closely. My general, admittedly biased, impression from a few months ago is that the DoJ had provided documents pertaining to Fast and Furious but the Republican House was using this as an in to gather even more documents in other DoJ affairs in a whichhunt attempt to find somthing, anything, to pin on the Obama administration. Did somthing actually happen here or is this just reaching the height that the back and forth can go?

[Sh1ner]

After skimming; all I could think of was Samual L Jackson's "English Motherfucker! Do you speak it?!"

[ezekial45]

what does this meeeeeeaaaaan....

[Weenerz]

Not really a political person but I think it means that the President basically stopped parts of Fast and Furious from becoming public record.

The move means the Department of Justice can withhold the documents from the House Oversight Committee, which was scheduled to consider a contempt measure Wednesday against Holder.

[Gaborn]

My post from the PoliGAF thread

I think a better way of looking at what is happening is there are "documents" and then there are DOCUMENTS. The government has turned over thousands of documents. The issue is the documents they're REFUSING to turn over. It's not really relevant to say the government has turned over a lot of documents if you're missing things you know are there and the government admits are there.

The real issue is how involved was Holder with Fast and Furious? Who was overseeing the program? Who authorized it? Variants started under Bush, did Holder explicitly authorize it to continue or did it just continue without his notice?

[ElectricBlue187]

TLDR: Fast and Furious movies can no longer be made.

Worst ever name for a morally questionable government scandal?

[ToxicAdam]

The intent of executive priviledge was to help protect national interests. Now it's to save your political buddies.

But, it's all plausible that there were certain documents that had names of undercover border cops that could be endangered by the wrong thing getting released. Or it could just be documents that confirm that Holder knew about the operation long before he admitted to. No one will ever know.

[CHEEZMO™]

Welcome to King Obomber's America.

[ced]

Transparency right?

[diffusionx]

If the House was using this F&F investigation as a way to examine the absurdity of drug and gun policy (Mexican cartels are using tons of American guns to do their dirty work), then I'd be super pissed. But they were using it to score political points.

Generally I am in favor of greater executive branch oversight, but it hasn't turned out so well the past 15 years or so (see: Lieberman asleep from 2006-2008, Clinton impeachment). Part of the problem.

[samus i am]

TLDR: Fast and Furious movies can no longer be made.

Haha, Obama used his executive privilege to get his hands on the exclusive F&F 6 script.

[strafer]

running aint freedom.

[brucewaynegretzky]

Welcome to King Obomber's America.

Cuz executive privilege is a new thing.... Ok, buddy.

[samus i am]

.... but seriously, explain what is happening like you are talking to a child.

[elrechazado]

I'm sure if W had done the same, all defenders would be fine with it.

[RustyNails]

IMPEACH OBAMAO

[ced]

I'm sure if W had done the same, all defenders would be fine with it.

Just like Obama defenders are going be a ok with this, what's your point?

It doesn't matter the party, they are all corrupt as hell.

[KAOz]

.... but seriously, explain what is happening like you are talking to a child.

They dun' did bad stuffs.

I think.

[Gaborn]

If the House was using this F&F investigation as a way to examine the absurdity of drug and gun policy (Mexican cartels are using tons of American guns to do their dirty work), then I'd be super pissed. But they were using it to score political points. Generally I am in favor of greater executive branch oversight, but it hasn't turned out so well the past 15 years or so (see: Lieberman asleep from 2006-2008, Clinton impeachment). Part of the problem.

Define score political points? I have no doubt some of them are relishing the fact this is embarrassing for Holder and for the Obama administration but are you saying it's inappropriate to investigate a program's utter and complete failure and who is responsible? It seems to me that even with the fact there is a political component failures of this sort SHOULD be embarrassing and should STILL be subject to intense scrutiny regardless of your political ideology, rather than protecting someone merely because you support them ideologically.

[Rhomega Beta]

Haha, Obama used his executive privilege to get his hands on the exclusive F&F 6 script.

I bet it'll wind up sucking.

[blame space]

.... but seriously, explain what is happening like you are talking to a child.

It's CNN.com.

[elrechazado]

Just like Obama defenders are going be a ok with this, what's your point?

Uhhh, that was the point?

[MIMIC]

Every time I saw this in the news (with that guy Eric Holder testifying to Congress or whatever), I thought this had to do with something overseas.

It's just about Mexico and guns >_<

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Fast_and_Furious

TL;DR version: The government sold guns to bad guys, and would track those guns, hoping that they would end up in the hands of the REALLY bad guys...who would later be arrested. They lost track of most of the guns. Additionally, a U.S. Border Patrol Agent was killed with one of those guns.

[Gaborn]

.... but seriously, explain what is happening like you are talking to a child.

Fast and Furious was a government gun walking program. The idea was they would have federal agents arrange a buy of guns by drug cartels (with trackers) so they could follow the guns up the cartel's food chain and maybe bust them. Unfortunately not only did they lose track of the guns at least one of them was used to kill a federal agent and the others made it to the cartels untraceably.

Now what is happening is the investigation that has resulted from the completely failed and idiotically risky operation.

[brucewaynegretzky]

.... but seriously, explain what is happening like you are talking to a child.

Presidents are given authority to withhold documents that are requested (or subpoenaed) if they are documents that are reasonably related to his duties as President. Basically he can't withhold stuff that's related to criminal trials or things completely unrelated to his work as President, but that's really it. The rationale is we want the President and his subordinates to be able to discuss courses of action freely without the fear of what they say being revealed to the public because if EVERYTHING they said was subject to compulsory disclosure it would significantly prevent people from taking bold actions (even if they were arguably correct) because they fear public backlash. Basically, the public gets in the way of government doing it's job, so sometimes it's better to just keep them out of it. The decision to use executive privilege is very politically sensitive because it leaves a bad taste in the public's mouth, but this is hardly groundbreaking territory. Nothing really all that new.

[samus i am]

It's CNN.com.

Should I wait for the huffington.com article?

[ToxicAdam]

I'm sure if W had done the same, all defenders would be fine with it.

They weren't when he did it for Cheney back in 2008.

read the comments

[ChiTownBuffalo]

Holder's been dropping hints that he wants to leave after this first term anyway.

Or, it'll just be like that time the Democratic controlled House tried to appoint a federal prosecutor on the Bush admin, in reagrds to firing of Federal Prosecutors. What happened was they just didn't act on it.

I'd imagine the same thing will happen.

[samus i am]

Fast and Furious was a government gun walking program. The idea was they would have federal agents arrange a buy of guns by drug cartels (with trackers) so they could follow the guns up the cartel's food chain and maybe bust them. Unfortunately not only did they lose track of the guns at least one of them was used to kill a federal agent and the others made it to the cartels untraceably. Now what is happening is the investigation that has resulted from the completely failed and idiotically risky operation.

Presidents are given authority to withhold documents that are requested (or subpoenaed) if they are documents that are reasonably related to his duties as President. Basically he can't withhold stuff that's related to criminal trials or things completely unrelated to his work as President, but that's really it. The rationale is we want the President and his subordinates to be able to discuss courses of action freely without the fear of what they say being revealed to the public because if EVERYTHING they said was subject to compulsory disclosure it would significantly prevent people from taking bold actions (even if they were arguably correct) because they fear public backlash. Basically, the public gets in the way of government doing it's job, so sometimes it's better to just keep them out of it. The decision to use executive privilege is very politically sensitive because it leaves a bad taste in the public's mouth, but this is hardly groundbreaking territory. Nothing really all that new.

Thank you and thank you.

[TheOnlyMook]

Thought this had to do with the F&F movies at first and was confused as hell. Glad I have been properly educated by GAF

[ElFly]

Fast and Furious was a government gun walking program. The idea was they would have federal agents arrange a buy of guns by drug cartels (with trackers) so they could follow the guns up the cartel's food chain and maybe bust them. Unfortunately not only did they lose track of the guns at least one of them was used to kill a federal agent and the others made it to the cartels untraceably. Now what is happening is the investigation that has resulted from the completely failed and idiotically risky operation.

Oh thanks for this.

This is fucked up.

[diffusionx]

Define score political points? I have no doubt some of them are relishing the fact this is embarrassing for Holder and for the Obama administration but are you saying it's inappropriate to investigate a program's utter and complete failure and who is responsible? It seems to me that even with the fact there is a political component failures of this sort SHOULD be embarrassing and should STILL be subject to intense scrutiny regardless of your political ideology, rather than protecting someone merely because you support them ideologically.

Nothing will happen if they cite Holder for contempt of Congress. If they do it, then it will get referred to the Justice Department for a full investigation. What do you think the Justice Department will do? Same shit happened during Bush's admin with certain people.

That's what I mean - this investigation, citing Holder for contempt of Congress, will not actually change anything. It's being used for political purposes because everyone involved knows it will not change anything.

F&F is really idiotic. But it's also a consequence of the shitty policies that have arisen. We implement shit policies, bad stuff happens, we come up with shitty programs like F&F to investigate it. A far better use of Congress' time would be to examine how our shitty drug war policies have unleashed the power of the Mexican cartels, and our loose gun laws have given them an easy-to-access arsenal of weapons whenever they want. But that is real work.

[Gaborn]

Nothing will happen if they cite Holder for contempt of Congress. If they do it, then it will get referred to the Justice Department for a full investigation. What do you think the Justice Department will do? Same shit happened during Bush's admin with certain people. That's what I mean - this investigation, citing Holder for contempt of Congress, will not actually change anything. It's being used for political purposes because everyone involved knows it will not change anything. F&F is really idiotic. But it's also a consequence of the shitty policies that have arisen. We implement shit policies, bad stuff happens, we come up with shitty programs like F&F to examine it.

That's why there were calls for a special prosecutor and exactly why one should have been appointed. Personally I think Mukasey AND Holder should potentially be held responsible for Agent Terry's murder.

[Death Dealer]

The real issue is how involved was Holder with Fast and Furious? Who was overseeing the program? Who authorized it? Variants started under Bush, did Holder explicitly authorize it to continue or did it just continue without his notice?

Holder has got to be culpable in what happened with those weapons getting loose. Whether he signed off on it or what. I don't think the administration would have obstructed this much if they were just continuing a Bush administration policy without some ownership of that agent getting killed.


Holder is actually my most disliked figure in his entire cabinet, for this and other reasons. I wish Obama would give the guy his pink slip.

[diffusionx]

Holder has got to be culpable in what happened with those weapons getting loose. Whether he signed off on it or what. I don't think the administration would have obstructed this much if they were just continuing a Bush administration policy without some ownership of that agent getting killed. Holder is actually my most disliked figure in his entire cabinet. I wish he's give the guy his pink slip.

Holder's gone at the end of the year even if Obama wins, he said as much.

[Gaborn]

Holder has got to be culpable in what happened with those weapons getting loose. Whether he signed off on it or what. I don't think the administration would have obstructed this much if they were just continuing a Bush administration policy without some ownership of that agent getting killed. Holder is actually my most disliked figure in his entire cabinet. I wish he's give the guy his pink slip.

That's my read on the situation as well. I think Holder deserves all the heat he's getting and SO much more.

Diffusionx - I don't want him gone, I want him indited. Criminally negligent homicide. If not for Holder's gross negligence in continuing Fast and Furious Agent Terry would not have been killed by a Fast and Furious gun.

[Mgoblue201]

I can't believe it took until the 24th paragraph of the article to explain what Fast and Furious actually is. Unless you already know the details, the entire article is worthless without that missing context. I know that I'm diverging from the original intent of the topic, but I spent most of the time in this thread simply searching for an explanation. Judging by the first several replies, I don't think I'm alone.

[brucewaynegretzky]

That's why there were calls for a special prosecutor and exactly why one should have been appointed. Personally I think Mukasey AND Holder should potentially be held responsible for Agent Terry's murder.

Um, there's virtually no way that would stand up in court. Holder would be shielded from liability because his actions were within his official capacity and in the aim of furthering a specific policy. I mean it's a cute thought, but not very realistic. There doesn't seem to be any real criminal liability here. Certainly it was a dumb political move, but people have died due to stupid government management before. Doesn't make it criminal.

[Übermatik]

Every time I saw this in the news (with that guy Eric Holder testifying to Congress or whatever), I thought this had to do with something overseas. It's just about Mexico and guys >_< http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Fast_and_Furious TL;DR version: The government sold guns to bad guys, and would track those guns, hoping that they would end up in the hands of the REALLY bad guys...who would later be arrested. They lost track of most of the guns. Additionally, a U.S. Border Patrol Agent was killed with one of those guns.

I had no fucking idea what was going on till I read this, thanks.

Train of thought basically went:

Vin Diesel > Obama > Military > Vin Diesel > Obama > Vin Diesel > Failed Government Operation with unfortunate name > Vin Diesel

[theBishop]

I don't know if this Fast and Furious issue is real or trumped up. But it's not surprising to see the president claim executive privilege on this. Both Obama and Bush have been blocking any judicial inquiry into rendition, 'enhanced interrogation' (aka torture), 'extrajudicial killings', indefinite detention, and drones through a combination of executive privilege and states secrets.

Either we're a nation of laws, or we're not. For the last 12 years at least, we haven't been.

[ToxicAdam]

I can't believe it took until the 24th paragraph of the article to explain what Fast and Furious actually is. Unless you already know the details, the entire article is worthless without that missing context. I know that I'm diverging from the original intent of the topic, but I spent most of the time in this thread simply searching for an explanation.

You can't be mad at people because you are too lazy to use wikipedia. It been in the news for over 14 months now.

[bananas]

I don't think this is going to be a big negative towards Obama because nobody seems to know what exactly this means.

[brucewaynegretzky]

I don't know if this Fast and Furious issue is real or trumped up. But it's not surprising to see the president claim executive privilege on this. Both Obama and Bush have been blocking any judicial inquiry into rendition, indefinite detention, and drones through a combination of executive privilege and states secrets. Either we're a nation of laws, or we're not. For the last 12 years at least, we haven't been.

Yes, Executive Privilege is a creation of the last 12 years. Thank you.

[bananas]

Every time I saw this in the news (with that guy Eric Holder testifying to Congress or whatever), I thought this had to do with something overseas. It's just about Mexico and guys >_< http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Fast_and_Furious TL;DR version: The government sold guns to bad guys, and would track those guns, hoping that they would end up in the hands of the REALLY bad guys...who would later be arrested. They lost track of most of the guns. Additionally, a U.S. Border Patrol Agent was killed with one of those guns.

Wow. That's really fucking stupid. Why would they think that would work?

[Gaborn]

I don't know if this Fast and Furious issue is real or trumped up. But it's not surprising to see the president claim executive privilege on this. Both Obama and Bush have been blocking any judicial inquiry into rendition, 'enhanced interrogation' (aka torture), 'extrajudicial killings', indefinite detention, and drones through a combination of executive privilege and states secrets. Either we're a nation of laws, or we're not. For the last 12 years at least, we haven't been.

Ask Agent Terry's family.