[NervousXtian]

Pretty great article on this entire thing, this thing has been portrayed incorrectly since the start.

http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.co...uth/?hpt=hp_t2

Quite simply, there's a fundamental misconception at the heart of the Fast and Furious scandal. Nobody disputes that suspected straw purchasers under surveillance by the ATF repeatedly bought guns that eventually fell into criminal hands. Issa and others charge that the ATF intentionally allowed guns to walk as an operational tactic. But five law-enforcement agents directly involved in Fast and Furious tell Fortune that the ATF had no such tactic. They insist they never purposefully allowed guns to be illegally trafficked. Just the opposite: They say they seized weapons whenever they could but were hamstrung by prosecutors and weak laws, which stymied them at every turn.

[razielim]

Pretty great article on this entire thing, this thing has been portrayed incorrectly since the start. http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.co...uth/?hpt=hp_t2

Just finished reading that and was going to post it. Thing reads like some self sabotaging spy movie. But how it's been portrayed doesn't surprise me one bit given the how politics are today. It's pretty sickening.

[NervousXtian]

Just finished reading that and was going to post it. Thing reads like some self sabotaging spy movie. But how it's been portrayed doesn't surprise me one bit given the how politics are today. It's pretty sickening.

Basically to summarize for those who don't want to spend 20mins reading it:

Shit gun laws basically made them unable to prosecute what were essentially by law legal gun sales, or not illegal enough according to prosecutors.

[Gaborn]

Basically to summarize for those who don't want to spend 20mins reading it: Shit gun laws basically made them unable to prosecute what were essentially by law legal gun sales, or not illegal enough according to prosecutors.

It's the gun laws fault they couldn't track the weapons they sold to the cartels in the first place.

Seriously, this all comes off as excuses and there is still no good reason for the government to not co-operate with a congressional investigation. This is not about the public's right to know, this is about the right of congress to provide oversight of a federal program that went badly wrong and it's frustrating that everyone is trying to pass the buck. Well fine, let's all stop passing the buck and let an independent special prosecutor look at the evidence and determine if a crime has been committed.

And the fact that there is STILL confusion on what exactly happened with fast and furious just supports the idea we need an independent investigation that is not handpicked by the people being investigated.

[NervousXtian]

Well, there's ongoing investigations and probably names of agents undercover they don't want people to see.

Brian Terry's death wasn't because of F&F... if not these guns, another gun. It's a tragedy, but F&F isn't the cause, it's a much bigger issue.

At some point you just should not be able to walk in with $20k and walk out with 20 assault rifles.

I support the 2nd amendment, but again it's a legal transaction technically.

[brucewaynegretzky]

And the fact that there is STILL confusion on what exactly happened with fast and furious just supports the idea we need an independent investigation that is not handpicked by the people being investigated.

Yeah and not Issa either....

[Gaborn]

Well, there's ongoing investigations and probably names of agents undercover they don't want people to see.

By people are you referring to Congress which has not only oversight authority but security clearance well above average people? When you say "people" it sounds like you're talking about you or me, but in reality this is about CONGRESS. Stop obfuscating.

Brian Terry's death wasn't because of F&F... if not these guns, another gun. It's a tragedy, but F&F isn't the cause, it's a much bigger issue.

It's possible it could have been another gun... but in this case it WASN'T another gun. It WAS a F&F gun. So there is certainly a linkage.

At some point you just should not be able to walk in with $20k and walk out with 20 assault rifles. I support the 2nd amendment, but again it's a legal transaction technically.

This really isn't about gun laws, I mean, really really isn't. That Fortune article though read like it was written solely to muddy the waters and shield the administration.

[brucewaynegretzky]

By people are you referring to Congress which has not only oversight authority but security clearance well above average people? When you say "people" it sounds like you're talking about you or me, but in reality this is about CONGRESS. Stop obfuscating.

And Congress leaks like a sieve. There are PLENTY of reasons that gov't organizations keep information from Congress, particularly when members have been pretty obvious in their intent to make as much of this public knowledge as they can for political purposes.

And even WITH oversight authority you're ignoring the assertion of executive privilege, which in this case is wholly unremarkable in the context of executive privilege generally.

[Gaborn]

And Congress leaks like a sieve. There are PLENTY of reasons that gov't organizations keep information from Congress, particularly when members have been pretty obvious in their intent to make as much of this public knowledge as they can for political purposes. And even WITH oversight authority you're ignoring the assertion of executive privilege, which in this case is wholly unremarkable in the context of executive privilege generally.

Actually I'm pretty sure the White House has been doing most of the leaking lately.

and yes, I'm ignoring the assertion of executive privilege because 9 times in 10 it's bullshit.

[brucewaynegretzky]

and yes, I'm ignoring the assertion of executive privilege because 9 times in 10 it's bullshit.

Yay, for completely subjective statements completely ignoring well established policy considerations for its existence.

[NervousXtian]

By people are you referring to Congress which has not only oversight authority but security clearance well above average people? When you say "people" it sounds like you're talking about you or me, but in reality this is about CONGRESS. Stop obfuscating.

I'm sure they will hand them over at some point. To be honest the ATF played this wrong, they should have been honest from the start instead of trying to figure away to brush this away. Not sure what can be in them that could make this worse to be honest, the speculation is already worst case scenerio.

It's possible it could have been another gun... but in this case it WASN'T another gun. It WAS a F&F gun. So there is certainly a linkage.

It's just a coincidence, a tragic one, but a coincidence. The cartels have guns, lots of them. If F&F didn't happen, it wouldn't mean Terry would instantly still be alive.

This really isn't about gun laws, I mean, really really isn't. That Fortune article though read like it was written solely to muddy the waters and shield the administration.

It is about gun laws though, in essence. The guns were legally purchased. Private parties can legally sell guns. Having to prove that the guns were purchased with the express purpose of delivering to Mexico isn't as easy to prove as it would seem from the outside.

The ATF didn't have a law to go back on to prosecute these "gun walkers".

[Gaborn]

Yay, for completely subjective statements completely ignoring well established policy considerations for its existence.

lol, well established. There is a good reason that assertions of executive privilege are generally reviled, because they're usually made to protect an administration from embarrassing information. See: Nixon, Clinton.

I'm sure they will hand them over at some point. To be honest the ATF played this wrong, they should have been honest from the start instead of trying to figure away to brush this away. Not sure what can be in them that could make this worse to be honest, the speculation is already worst case scenerio.

I agree, the initial claim in 2010 that this program never existed was wrong. Lying to congress is wrong.

It's just a coincidence, a tragic one, but a coincidence. The cartels have guns, lots of them. If F&F didn't happen, it wouldn't mean Terry would instantly still be alive.

You can see alternate futures now? You're making an assumption that might well be true... or it might not. We can't know that.

It is about gun laws though, in essence. The guns were legally purchased. Private parties can legally sell guns. Having to prove that the guns were purchased with the express purpose of delivering to Mexico isn't as easy to prove as it would seem from the outside. The ATF didn't have a law to go back on to prosecute these "gun walkers".

Yeah, the poor innocent ATF that lied to congress and doesn't want an independent special prosecutor.

[Farooq]

Actually I'm pretty sure the White House has been doing most of the leaking lately. and yes, I'm ignoring the assertion of executive privilege because 9 times in 10 it's bullshit.

Yea, the way Obama admin has been cracking down on whistle blowers, and the way the information is leaked to portray Obama in a very positive light has lead several journalists to postulate the same thing.

[Chichikov]

There are PLENTY of reasons that gov't organizations keep information from Congress, particularly when members have been pretty obvious in their intent to make as much of this public knowledge as they can for political purposes.

I ask this in every thread where leaks come up, can you give me one example in history when it was a good idea to keep information from the public after the fact?
(I'm not even talking about congress).
Just one.
Because I can give you countless examples when it was a terrible idea.

p.s.
I'm always shocked to see so many people willing to take politicians at their word.

[razielim]

This really isn't about gun laws, I mean, really really isn't. That Fortune article though read like it was written solely to muddy the waters and shield the administration.

I didn't think it shielded the administration as it showed the ATF group wasn't getting any support that they needed and were constantly getting the run around. Provide information to prosecutors but constantly be told that it's not enough due to technicalities in the state's law. Eventually go to wire tapping to get proof but a 24 process turns into months. Once it's approved have the number be obsolete and need approval to tap another number, gee I wonder how quick that will get approved. Shit goes down with the Terry getting shot and all of a sudden it's a priority for this team to start getting some support. Eventually the team gets so frustrated by how they're handcuffed by everyone that a rift is created and now the team can't function properly due to petty issues. Then afterwards they find a couple guys they're tracking are FBI informants which may or may not explain some feet dragging, but would have been nice to know at some point.

Rather than shielding the administration it pretty much told me that everyone is at fault. Shows this team can't function and is doomed to fail from the get go because everyone has some stupid political benefit from this group failing or succeeding so they're constantly fighting our own government to get support to do what they're tasked with.

[mre]

This really isn't about gun laws, I mean, really really isn't. That Fortune article though read like it was written solely to muddy the waters and shield the administration.

It was actually pretty damning towards the USAO.