[Opiate]

Aren't most Playgirl readers male?

If true, this would be an interesting explanation. Perhaps men are the driving force behind both stereotypes of women and of themselves? However, it sounds like these conclusions are based off multiple sources and not just their centerfold study (several other concurrent studies are cited in the article). I'm not sure if this explanation would apply to all examples or not.

Scientifically, women like men who are larger because it means the male can protect them. In reverse, I would think men would like women whom they can protect. It's also a social status thing. Heavier women used to be richer. Now it's the opposite. Standards of beauty are entirely a societal concept.

I think this is the obvious explanation (although that doesn't make it right). The question then is why we're moving towards distinct gender roles in this case, rather than away from them.

Put differently, there are lots of ways for women to be dependant upon or "protected" by men. They can be protected/dependent economically (i.e. the man provides the money / resources), they can be dependent intellectually (i.e. the man makes the large, important household decisions), they can be dependent politically (i.e. women do not have the right to vote or customarily vote however their man does), they can be dependent emotionally, or in any other number of ways.

And in almost all these ways, we have made significant strides towards equality between men and women, where women are no longer protected by / dependent on men. They are much more independent financially (wages for women have gone up over time, there are more jobs for women in general), more independent intellectually (women are advancing much further in high education), politically (obviously women can vote today), and so forth. While we aren't perfectly equal yet by any means, we can see ourselves moving in that direction over time. So why are we moving away from men as the stereotypical protectors/providers economically, emotionally, politically, and intellectually, but moving towards this stereotype physically?

[Masoria]

No clue. I've always been attracted to "pretty boys" with little muscle definition, myself.

[Inanna]

Not everyone likes huge guys, I like athletic build men with handsome or cute faces. I hate the term pretty boy though, I'm not exactly sure why, I guess because sometimes when people say a guy is a "pretty boy" they usually means they're not manly enough.

I think girls, especially the upcoming generation like skinnier guys more. Have you seen how many pre-teens and early teens love Bieber? Or the Twilight guy?

[FallingEdge]

I've always thought that the typical '6 pack abs and ripped look' (within reason) was something that was desirable to all women (and men for that matter). However, as I have read in various posts/forums from GAF and other places, there is a lot more variety in body types that I originally thought. I admit that it is quite ignorant of me to assume one thing but it has opened my eye on that subject.

[Devolution]

Using Playgirl as a frame of reference seems dubious. Especially now that they essentially cater to gay men.

[Opiate]

Not everyone likes huge guys, I like athletic build men with handsome or cute faces. I hate the term pretty boy though, I'm not exactly sure why, I guess because sometimes when people say a guy is a "pretty boy" they usually means they're not manly enough. I think girls, especially the upcoming generation like skinnier guys more. Have you seen how many pre-teens and early teens love Bieber? Or the Twilight guy?

Yes, it's entirely possible that the trend will reverse itself.

Using Playgirl as a frame of reference seems dubious. Especially now that they essentially cater to gay men.

I do find this argument fairly compelling, although as stated the article does point to similar studies using other methods which find the same basic result.

Regardless, generally, it does seem entirely possible that both sides of the inequality are being pushed by men, rather than women. This doesn't mean some women don't like it, just that the overall cultural trend -- if it exists -- may be majoratively or primarily catalyzed by men.

Am I incorrect in saying that other cultures have moved away from these traditional gender roles on a physical level? That is, I am under the impression that some cultures have moved more towards physical androgyny, or more towards an acceptance of taller women, and shorter men, and so forth -- am I making that up? I've not researched these attitudes at all, and my cultural knowledge is fairly limited outside the U.S.

[Devolution]

Yes, it's entirely possible that the trend will reverse itself. I do find this argument fairly compelling, although as stated the article does point to similar studies using other methods which find the same basic result. Regardless, generally, it does seem entirely possible that both sides of the inequality are being pushed by men, rather than women. This doesn't mean some women don't like it, just that the overall cultural trend -- if it exists -- may be majoratively or primarily catalyzed by men. Am I incorrect in saying that other cultures have moved away from these traditional gender roles on a physical level? That is, I am under the impression that some cultures have moved more towards physical androgyny, or more towards an acceptance of taller women, and shorter men, and so forth -- am I making that up? I've not researched these attitudes at all, and my cultural knowledge is fairly limited outside the U.S.

Among my friends slender men are much more appealing than hulking dudes. The hunks in Asia reflect this as well.

[Zoe]

I do find this argument fairly compelling, although as stated the article does point to similar studies using other methods which find the same basic result. Regardless, generally, it does seem entirely possible that both sides of the inequality are being pushed by men, rather than women. This doesn't mean some women don't like it, just that the overall cultural trend -- if it exists -- may be majoratively or primarily catalyzed by men.

I think it's fair to say that images portrayed are going to be largely influenced by 1) the people producing them and 2) the target audience.

I have absolutely nothing to back this up, but back when stick-thin, flat-breasted actresses were all the rage (early 00's maybe?) a lot of women in different communities were blaming gay stylists and designers for trying to make women more boyish.

[Satch]

i havent posted in here in a while

hay gurls~

[Devolution]

Having a certain preference for a certain body type isn't sexist. You can go all semantics and say "this root word with this suffix means yadda yadda" and divorce the word from context it's usually used in, but doing so only helps to confuse the discussion, especially since then you would also have to say that having a sexual preference at all is sexist.

I think it's fair to say that images portrayed are going to be largely influenced by 1) the people producing them and 2) the target audience. I have absolutely nothing to back this up, but back when stick-thin, flat-breasted actresses were all the rage (early 00's maybe?) a lot of women in different communities were blaming gay stylists and designers for trying to make women more boyish.

There is some data and information out there that points to models being made into the ideal form of beauty because they're more masculine. Basically we can't win.

[The Anti-Monitor]

Scientifically, women like men who are larger because it means the male can protect them.

I dunno, I think it's because you imagine you'll ride better with a stronger steed.

[Platy]

Scientifically, women like men who are larger because it means the male can protect them. In reverse, I would think men would like women whom they can protect.

Sorry, but this sounds SO WRONG

"women like the color pink more because they colected berries" WRONG

People like others because of MATING.
it is all about SEX, not protection or anything like that
Guys are biologicaly focused on getting girls wth huge hips and breasts because they will create babies more and girls are biological atracted to health dudeds (usualy means a more symmetrical face) and fertile.

You can be a Nomura and Amano design rejected and still be perfectly heath and fertile =P

[Masoria]

Meh, it all blends together. A strong man gives strong, healthy children, and can help protect the family.

I'm not saying it's true for every person, it's just what I remember reading.

[Masoria]

I dunno, I think it's because you imagine you'll ride better with a stronger steed.

Apparently:
Men's masculinity and attractiveness predict their female partners' reported orgasm frequency and timing

[The Anti-Monitor]

Apparently: Men's masculinity and attractiveness predict their female partners' reported orgasm frequency and timing

Not to say it's not true but...

[cloudwalking]

i havent posted in here in a while hay gurls~

hey satch!



my two cents:

i think women are biologically inclined to seek out "strong" men (that's not to say all of them do this though). the thing that varies is the definition of strong. do abs and a six-pack make a man strong? does confidence? what about wealth or power? and of course, intelligence? etc, etc. this tends to vary across women and definitely also across cultures.

i personally think of a strong man as one who is confident and intelligent and not necessarily physically strong.

[lexi]

i personally think of a strong man as one who is confident and intelligent and not necessarily physically strong.

Dat confidence. Intelligence would be a bonus but there is nothing hotter and stronger in my eyes than a confident man.

[shanshan310]

People like others because of MATING. it is all about SEX, not protection or anything like that Guys are biologicaly focused on getting girls wth huge hips and breasts because they will create babies more and girls are biological atracted to health dudeds (usualy means a more symmetrical face) and fertile. You can be a Nomura and Amano design rejected and still be perfectly heath and fertile =P

After seeing that study where women on the pill are attracted to less masculine men, I'm kind of inclined to agree.

Completely anecdotal, but in my experience gay men tend to be attracted to more muscular men than a lot of women.

[Inanna]

hey satch! my two cents: i think women are biologically inclined to seek out "strong" men (that's not to say all of them do this though). the thing that varies is the definition of strong. do abs and a six-pack make a man strong? does confidence? what about wealth or power? and of course, intelligence? etc, etc. this tends to vary across women and definitely also across cultures. i personally think of a strong man as one who is confident and intelligent and not necessarily physically strong.

Well, by that definition men seek out strong women too then, because that's everything most men want in the women they want to go out with. Also, a lot of guys go gaga over women that work out and have awesome abs!

[Sheik]

If you guys are talking about the primal biological imperative to reproduce in relation to attraction and coupling, then what attributes do same-sex couples seek in each other and why?

[Devolution]

If you guys are talking about the primal biological imperative to reproduce in relation to attraction and coupling, then what attributes do same-sex couples seek in each other and why?

No one cares.

I kid of course but that's the problem in a nutshell. We focus so much on only the propagation of the species we forget that we've had sex just for bonding and social strengthening since the beginning as well. Companionship is much more complicated among our species than we give ourselves credit for.

[Prax]

My two cents:

We just like what we like.
And that is shaped by culture and fads.
Whatever we think will lead to a better more valuable mate will be what we want.

Perhaps we are trending towards preference for slim women and buff men.
But that's just the nature of things. People trend toward extremes because they like "pinnacles" of stuff. Biggest this, smallest that. Not that the majority of people would prefer the very extreme poles, but they will gravitate to whatever they believe has "more value", but these values are mostly arbitrary (though these days, I think people will try to justify their values with science or health facts--how many guys do I hear/read saying stuff like "I hate fat chicks because they clearly don't take care of their health and I only want to care about someone who cares about themselves!". Always sounds a little.. disingenuous?). At some point, it'll just swing in the other direction or find some new focus.

I think the idea of males and females becoming more equal socially/economically, leading to a trend of defining these genders in terms of physicality makes sense. People are still going to try to categorize, so if they can't do it with one area, they'll do it in another.

[Gaborn]

If you guys are talking about the primal biological imperative to reproduce in relation to attraction and coupling, then what attributes do same-sex couples seek in each other and why?

Dev's answer is good but let me also add that it's entirely possible for a gay person to look for a good mate in terms of child rearing. It doesn't actually matter that a particular couple cannot reproduce together anymore than it matters in a heterosexual couple. Such considerations may still very well inform the qualities we seek at a biological level when evaluating the fitness of a partner even if they're not always actuated on a physical level. Remember too that things like temperment, personality, and an interest in raising kids are ALSO desirable attributes in biological terms.

I think when people think of same sex couples and reproduction it's usually in terms of the physical act being impossible, that is, a gay couple are currently unable to have biological children directly related to both people as parents. I think this is a misunderstanding of the current landscape with regards to many gay couples. Many gay couples have children, many gay couples WANT to have children. They just go through other routes that are also available to straight couples. From adoption to a simple sperm bank to surrogacy there are many options available to gay couples to have their progeny continue on either in biological form or through an adopted bundle of joy.

[leadbelly]

Also, a lot of guys go gaga over women that work out and have awesome abs!

I would say a lot of men don't like muscular women. There is a big difference between a woman keeping herself fit and healthy and a woman developing muscle mass. It just makes a woman look very masculine - and that is a big turn off.

[The Anti-Monitor]

A woman with abs is fucking awesome. I managed to have semi defined abs for a while, I miss that.

Then again I also love abs on guys so....

[leadbelly]

A woman with abs is fucking awesome. I managed to have semi defined abs for a while, I miss that. Then again I also love abs on guys so....

A toned body isn't so bad. It is when a woman starts to develop a quite distinctive muscular frame that it becomes a turn off.

This is okay.


This is a little too much.

Speaking for myself, I love a woman's natural curves. The female form is so beautiful. I think part of the reason it is so attractive to me may be because of the contrast between masculine and feminine. There is a distinct difference in form. A muscular woman appears less feminine and more masculine.

[The Anti-Monitor]

I can't see the second picture. And I don't understand how abs are inherently masculine, a man has to work for them just like a woman.

[Zoe]

For me the turn-off about visible abs on a woman is that it most likely means her BF% is at an unhealthily low point.

[leadbelly]

I can't see the second picture. And I don't understand how abs are inherently masculine, a man has to work for them just like a woman.

Not so much abs in themselves, but a woman having a muscular frame. There is a point where they look less feminine and more masculine.

[FallingEdge]

A woman with abs is fucking awesome. I managed to have semi defined abs for a while, I miss that. Then again I also love abs on guys so....

more squats!

[ClassyPenguin]

Not so much abs in themselves, but a woman having a muscular frame. There is a point where they look less feminine and more masculine.

I dislike this whole toned-for-aesthetics look.

If it's a byproduct of a sport or something, it's alright. It shows the person is active and loves to do physical stuff. But as an aesthetic it's pointless for me.

Doing massive workouts without being interested in doing anything with it is a waste. At least if the person is into a diverse range of physical hobbies (mountain biking, hiking, kayaking, etc) they are using their body for something.

[leadbelly]

I dislike this whole toned-for-aesthetics look.

Well, whether people do it simply for the aesthetics or not, the benefit is you're keeping yourself in shape.

What I don't like is a woman who looks distinctively muscular. There is nothing wrong with a toned midriff though. It is all about moderation.

[SaskBoy]

more squats!

Are squats the answer to everything in life? Yeah, I think so.

[Sheik]

No one cares. I kid of course but that's the problem in a nutshell. We focus so much on only the propagation of the species we forget that we've had sex just for bonding and social strengthening since the beginning as well. Companionship is much more complicated among our species than we give ourselves credit for.

Dev's answer is good but let me also add that it's entirely possible for a gay person to look for a good mate in terms of child rearing. It doesn't actually matter that a particular couple cannot reproduce together anymore than it matters in a heterosexual couple. Such considerations may still very well inform the qualities we seek at a biological level when evaluating the fitness of a partner even if they're not always actuated on a physical level. Remember too that things like temperment, personality, and an interest in raising kids are ALSO desirable attributes in biological terms.

Ah, you both come from interesting perspectives! I've always thought the whole concept of looking for a good mate to produce offspring was really archaic and no longer valid in modern society so I was really surprised to see people talking about the size of a woman's hips and the virility of men. I guess I was mistaken! Granted, I've never wanted children so maybe that's why. And of course there are same-sex couples who do want children and look for attributes in their partners that would suggest they'd be good parents, but I was thinking more along the lines of physical/biological traits. I tend to agree with the latter of your guys' argument, that attraction is based on subjective qualities such as aesthetics, personality, social status, professional success, etc. and varies from individual to individual. That companionship, as Devolution put it, trumps breeding.

On a side note, I just found out that Pink had a baby. She's so cute!

[Devolution]

Ah, you both come from interesting perspectives! I've always thought the whole concept of looking for a good mate to produce offspring was really archaic and no longer valid in modern society so I was really surprised to see people talking about the size of a woman's hips and the virility of men. I guess I was mistaken! Granted, I've never wanted children so maybe that's why. And of course there are same-sex couples who do want children and look for attributes in their partners that would suggest they'd be good parents, but I was thinking more along the lines of physical/biological traits. I tend to agree with the latter of your guys' argument, that attraction is based on subjective qualities such as aesthetics, personality, social status, professional success, etc. and varies from individual to individual. That companionship, as Devolution put it, trumps breeding. On a side note, I just found out that Pink had a baby. She's so cute!

Companionship among people who don't want kids or gays could have positively impacted cultures as well. A virile couple has a lot of kids? Those without kids pick up the slack.

[Kazerei]

A toned body isn't so bad. It is when a woman starts to develop a quite distinctive muscular frame that it becomes a turn off. This is okay. http://i.imgur.com/wIbYT.jpg This is a little too much. http://i.imgur.com/QTqZR.jpg Speaking for myself, I love a woman's natural curves. The female form is so beautiful. I think part of the reason it is so attractive to me may be because of the contrast between masculine and feminine. There is a distinct difference in form. A muscular woman appears less feminine and more masculine.

Similarly, I like guys who are lean and a bit muscular. Too muscular is a turn off.

This is okay.


This is too much.

[Sheik]

Companionship among people who don't want kids or gays could have positively impacted cultures as well. A virile couple has a lot of kids? Those without kids pick up the slack.

For sure. I firmly believe that the world is overpopulated. Adults that don't have to deal with child rearing have much more time to be productive. There is also an inverse correlation between level of income/education and number of children per household.

[Opiate]

I would just like to point out that the current discussion (with pictures) is totally acceptable. If anyone wants to know how to have pictures of attractive people in a thread, this is how you do it: in moderation, and with reason.

I'll add one last note on the topic; as Devolution (and others) have noted, some "hot chick" threads manage to survive for quite some time. This isn't because we don't care; it's because there are an enormous amount of them, and they often slowly "evolve" in to hot-chick threads over time, so we don't always close them down immediately upon inception.

If we allowed "hot chick" threads to come back, we would likely be right back to where we were two years ago: there were 1-2 threads on the front page of off topic exclusively devoted to "hot chicks with amazing butts" and "hot chicks with great boobs" at essentially all times, with 2-3 sub-threads that float around page 3 or 4 for the more specialized tastes for "only black chicks" or "amazing feet" or something like that. This is not just because boys are often obsessed with sex, but also because they overwhelmingly outnumber women on this forum.

We would rather not have the off topic look like that, so we do our best to nip those threads in the bud. If we allow the women on the forum to gossip about cute boys, we'd have to allow the same for the men on the forum, and that has proven to be a problem.

Again, if you have any questions, please feel free to PM me. Also Justin Timberlake is attractive.

[Professor Beef]

Also Justin Timberlake is attractive.

Oh good, I knew I wasn't the only one who thought so.

[The Anti-Monitor]

It's amazing some threads manage to sneak by moderation after they hit 5+ pages. Damn those ninjas and their subtle titles such as "GAF's Top 100, because Maxim was wrong!"

So Shanshan, tell us about the Australian swimming team plz.

[Opiate]

It's amazing some threads manage to sneak by moderation after they hit 5+ pages. Damn those ninjas and their subtle titles such as "GAF's Top 100, because Maxim was wrong!" So Shanshan, tell us about the Australian swimming team plz.

I already explained this three times. If you won't read or are incapable of doing so, I can't help you. I'll ask again since you also apparently didn't read this either: if you have any further questions or comments, please PM me or another moderator. Thanks.

[Devolution]

The Wire has some fantastically cut people.

[shanshan310]

So Shanshan, tell us about the Australian swimming team plz.

The male team or the female team? :p

But actually that reminds me of something I wanted to bring up. This particular swimmer copped a whole lot of shit from the media/public for being 'too fat to compete'. To me she looks bulky, but clearly pretty muscular. I thought it was weird how much people were obsessing over it, I've never seen this happen with male athletes, but its become rather common place for females.

Also Justin Timberlake is attractive.

This made me laugh.

[Opiate]

A related topic: what sport do you feel produces (or facilitates) the most attractive body type? Gymnasts, for example, tend to be well muscled and flexible, but quite short. Swimmers tend to be tall with lean muscles and broad shoulders. Cyclists tend to have very muscular lower bodies. American football players tend to be very large and muscular, and so forth.

Any opinions?

[Satch]

gymnasts

[Inanna]

Also Justin Timberlake is attractive.

My guy kind of looks like him. I don't find Justine Timberlake attractive but I find my guy attractive! Weird how that works. :D

[Femmeworth]

Swimmers have such odd looking bodies, at least the men do.

[Zoe]

Swimmers have such odd looking bodies, at least the men do.

Yeah, this was posted to the Phelps thread, and it does nothing for me. (for Phelps in particular, his neck is too weird)

I think I'd have to say tennis players would have to be the ideal since they look the most "normal" :lol

[kisaya]

Soccer players.

[Devolution]

Soccer players.

Ditto.