[HyperBitHero]

The Last of Us and Tangibility

A few days ago I did a video about the sense of tangibility that Naughty Dog's latest game, The Last of Us, was able to create.

I was wondering what you guys thought about the topic, or if you're looking foreward to The Last of Us at all. A lot of people seem to be afraid that the game will turn out too scripted, because of ND's track record, but I'm hoping it will be more like Uncharted 2, instead of 3.

[Zabuza]

Yeah it's tangible. It's got that nice Naughty Dog feel going on.

[Kinyou]

It's a nice improvement of Uncharted 3's wall touching, which already had the right idea, but lacked in the execution.

[Neiteio]

I don't think the game looks particularly -fun- at the moment, and I actually think UC2 looked more compelling visually (variety of colors in Nepal, setpieces in general, even though TLoU isn't going for that). The gameplay in TLoU doesn't look special -- just more variety in context-sensitive animations, and better blending thereof. I suspect this will lead to immersion-breaking moments when I go to punch someone expecting them to topple backwards into a bathtub, and instead I grab the shower rod and smack them. Eh. But hopefully they'll pace the game nicely enough that there's a progressive sense of discovery, one post-apocalyptic vista opening onto another. And as you said, hopefully the game isn't massively scripted.

The standout FUN games at E3 were Metal Gear Rising, Dishonored, NSMBU and P-100, imo. You just see them and want to pick up and play. I think RE6 shows promise where basic traversal and combat is concerned, too.

[Fancy Corndog]

I think the game is going to be incredible but I also think it will probably be pushed back to late 2013 and that talking about it right now will only be painful.

Highlights of the game for me include the AI interaction, health bar, scarcity of supplies (bullets), crafting system, and the live backpack inventory. Oh and of course the animations and visual stuff.

[Derrick01]

To me the game will live or die on how unscripted it is. If it's like Uncharted then I'll likely finish it and get rid of it as fast as possible. But if I can go through areas in a variety of ways, and for example if the enemies don't always make the same quote when I run out of ammo and charge at me, then it will be a truly special game.

[HyperBitHero]

It's a nice improvement of Uncharted 3's wall touching, which already had the right idea, but lacked in the execution.

I was going to put an annotation of the video, acknowledging U3's inclusion of the wall touching thing, but no one brought it up.

When it works, it looks good, but when it's 2 feet off, it's just dumb looking.

[benny_a]

The contrast between The Last of Us and Mass Effect is insane.

Also I just noticed when Joel was struggling with his back on the floor that blood ran down his cheek. Nice touch.

[Kinyou]

I was going to put an annotation of the video, acknowledging U3's inclusion of the wall touching thing, but no one brought it up. When it works, it looks good, but when it's 2 feet off, it's just dumb looking.

Yeah, really hope that this wont happen in The Last Of Us. E3 demos always have the advantage of being played "the right way" so we don't know yet if the system might have flaws.

btw. good point with the animations and how the characters interact with each other. In Uncharted 3 that always felt a little off as well. Like that it felt like there's some little cut between Drake who's standing there and the Drake who's hitting someone with a wrench. In the Last of us all this seems just super smooth

[Neiteio]

Yeah, really hope that this wont happen in The Last Of Us. E3 demos always have the advantage of being played "the right way" so we don't know yet if the system might have flaws.

I saw the developer-controlled walkthrough, but have people outside ND played TLoU yet? Part of me thinks nonplayable games should be ineligible for Best of E3 awards, but what I know. :)

[jett]

I didn't notice how he picked up ammo, that's pretty great.

[jett]

I saw the developer-controlled walkthrough, but have people outside ND played TLoU yet? Part of me thinks nonplayable games should be ineligible for Best of E3 awards, but what I know. :)

Geoff Keighley said that the E3 judges played the game, including himself.

[HyperBitHero]

I didn't notice how he picked up ammo, that's pretty great.

Really? That was a big highlight for me. The sound effect of the bullet shells hitting each other is also really good, so I can see picking up ammo being really satisfying.

[Neiteio]

Geoff Keighley said that the E3 judges played the game, including himself.

Hmm, I wonder why they didn't make it available to the press at large then. It'd be quite illuminating to have some detailed hands-on. As it stands, it's hard to tell how organically this game will play in the chaotics hands of the sweaty unwashed masses.

Ditto for Watch_Dogs, which iirc was also just shown, not played (and which also doesn't look special, nor does 1313 aka Uncharted in Reactor Cores).

[HyperBitHero]

The contrast between The Last of Us and Mass Effect is insane. Also I just noticed when Joel was struggling with his back on the floor that blood ran down his cheek. Nice touch.

In that comparison I wanted to use the ME2 version of that scene, but the footage glitched up on me, so I had to do the first game.

I thought it was kind of an unfair comparison.

[benny_a]

Hmm, I wonder why they didn't make it available to the press at large then.

To be fair, to be eligible for game of E3, the games need to be playable which in reality just means that a judge takes the controller for a moment and jumps to check if it's interactive or a video. (Source: Jeff Gerstmann)

If that is the case in this specific instance I don't know, but that's what he usually describes it as.

I thought it was kind of an unfair comparison.

It's an unfair comparison not just because one game is so much older, but one is an animation tied to gameplay and the other is an animation running in a Mass Effect style dialog-scene.

[HyperBitHero]

I think the game is going to be incredible but I also think it will probably be pushed back to late 2013 and that talking about it right now will only be painful. Highlights of the game for me include the AI interaction, health bar, scarcity of supplies (bullets), crafting system, and the live backpack inventory. Oh and of course the animations and visual stuff.

I was going to bring up the backpack inventory to go along with the point that it feels tangible because the characters interact with items in non-abstract ways. But I thought it was a bit redundant because I already brought up the gethering ammo animation.

[cameron]

ND knows how to animate character interaction. Uncharted 2 had a gameplay section where a dude leans over Drake's shoulder, and they both walk through the level. It was weighty and believable. At the bottom of barrel, Mass Effect 3 had a sparring cutscene that looked super goofy and ruined the moment the devs were going for.

[mysticwhip]

nice video man.

[HyperBitHero]

ND knows how to animate character interaction. Uncharted 2 had a gameplay section where a dude leans over Drake's shoulder, and they both walk through the level. It was weighty and believable. At the bottom of barrel, Mass Effect 3 had a sparring cutscene that looked super goofy and ruined the moment the devs were going for.

Ah, yes, that scene was great. Uncharted animates really well, and credit goes to the animation blending system they use.

[armv]

I didn't notice how he picked up ammo, that's pretty great.

I love that Joel picks up the ammo, but I hate that the ammo is automatically placed into the gun. He goes from 4 bullets to 6 bullets without actually putting them into the gun.

[HyperBitHero]

nice video man.

Ah, thanks man.

I love that Joel picks up the ammo, but I hate that the ammo is automatically placed into the gun. He goes from 4 bullets to 6 bullets without actually putting them into the gun.

Well, he at least puts it into his pocket, or whatever. That's good enough for me.

[B.O.O.M]

Excellent video. I actually noticed some stuff I hadn't before. Thanks

[HyperBitHero]

Excellent video. I actually noticed some stuff I hadn't before. Thanks

Like what? You have to pay attention to appreciate everything.

[RamzaIsCool]

Really looking forward to this game. I really fuckin hope they aren't selling us smokes and mirrors with that contextual laser AI thing. I know they said it isn't scipted, but watching this video kinda makes me iffy regarding that statement. Hope they aren't bullshitting us.

[Stallion Free]

Also I just noticed when Joel was struggling with his back on the floor that blood ran down his cheek. Nice touch.

I'm surprised more devs haven't really bothered with implementing that sort of effect.

[HyperBitHero]

I'm surprised more devs haven't really bothered with implementing that sort of effect.

Jesus christ, what am I watching?!

[Tricky I Shadow]

Naughty Dog is the best in the business at the moment. This will be incredible and is a game of the gen contender. That is all.

I'm surprised more devs haven't really bothered with implementing that sort of effect.

WAT.

[Dark Octave]

To me the game will live or die on how unscripted it is. If it's like Uncharted then I'll likely finish it and get rid of it as fast as possible. But if I can go through areas in a variety of ways, and for example if the enemies don't always make the same quote when I run out of ammo and charge at me, then it will be a truly special game.

I can pretty much assure you that it won't be a Deus Ex or Hitman type of game. It'll be pretty linear I'm sure. Not a bad thing for me, but maybe for others.

[HyperBitHero]

I can pretty much assure you that it won't be a Deus Ex or Hitman type of game. It'll be pretty linear I'm sure. Not a bad thing for me, but maybe for others.

I'm hoping the linear nature will be handled more like Uncharted 2 than 3. In U2, you always had control over Drake, and you played around in dynamic environments, and stuff. But in 3, the game took control way from you to put you into mini cutscenes with invisible QTEs.

[jett]

I can pretty much assure you that it won't be a Deus Ex or Hitman type of game. It'll be pretty linear I'm sure. Not a bad thing for me, but maybe for others.

I expect it to be more like a Metal Gear.

[SolidSnakex]

I can pretty much assure you that it won't be a Deus Ex or Hitman type of game. It'll be pretty linear I'm sure. Not a bad thing for me, but maybe for others.

They've described it as being "wide linear". So, they're going to have a specific location that they want you to get to but they're going to give you many ways of getting to that point.

[Sean]

Naughty Dog nailed all of the small details, the graphics and animation, sound design, characters, etc. My only worry with The Last of Us at this point is whether the game will be overly scripted.

I can picture the mission designers going "We want all players to notice Elle throwing the brick at this enemy, so even if the player has been conserving ammo and has a full pistol, we'll script it so that Joel's gun jams at this precise moment" or something like that. Where no matter how you play it's always the same result.

I want to feel like I'm actually in control of Joel and making all of these survival decisions for myself rather than the game scripting everything for me. I'm looking forward to seeing the behind closed doors "stealth playthrough" demo to see if there's really freedom in the ways you can approach situations.

[HyperBitHero]

I expect it to be more like a Metal Gear.

Hopefully, it will have much more open environments than the ones shown so far.

I can see the Metal Gear influences. Joel has that cover lean that Snake has in MGS4.

[Derrick01]

I can pretty much assure you that it won't be a Deus Ex or Hitman type of game. It'll be pretty linear I'm sure. Not a bad thing for me, but maybe for others.

Well yeah I wasn't expecting it to go quite that far. Those games have options out the ass. But if I can enter every area in 2-3 different ways and choose to go stealthy or mix it up then I think I'll be happy.

Basically all I want from this game in terms of unscripted is that AI stuff and animation stuff they've been talking about. Like I don't want him to take the same cover animation every time, or have the enemies react the same way and patrol the same routes all of the time or die the same ways every time. These guys are the masters at that kind of stuff so I'd like to see them take it further to the point where we rarely see the same thing twice in combat.

[Ploid 3.0]

The Last of Us and Tangibility A few days ago I did a video about the sense of tangibility that Naughty Dog's latest game, The Last of Us, was able to create. I was wondering what you guys thought about the topic, or if you're looking foreward to The Last of Us at all. A lot of people seem to be afraid that the game will turn out too scripted, because of ND's track record, but I'm hoping it will be more like Uncharted 2, instead of 3.

Wow you're the guy that did the diablo 3 videos. I'm glad you're a gaffer.

[Callibretto]

Naughty Dog nailed all of the small details, the graphics and animation, sound design, characters, etc. My only worry with The Last of Us at this point is whether the game will be overly scripted. I can picture the mission designers going "We want all players to notice Elle throwing the brick at this enemy, so even if the player has been conserving ammo and has a full pistol, we'll script it so that Joel's gun jams at this precise moment" or something like that. Where no matter how you play it's always the same result. I want to feel like I'm actually in control of Joel and making all of these survival decisions for myself rather than the game scripting everything for me. I'm looking forward to seeing the behind closed doors "stealth playthrough" demo to see if there's really freedom in the ways you can approach situations.

well, Ellie throwing a brick is not a one off moment that will only happened in that specific time, you'll be encountering a lot of those over the course of the game. it's part of Ellie AI behavior.

so the dev really have no need to force a gun jammed on you just so you see Ellie throwing a brick because unless you play the game perfectly ,you'll bound to see that action sooner or later. actually, some of us are worried if Ellie throwing bricks will get old after you see it for so many times, of if it will become your cheap free get away card where every time you run out of ammo, Ellie will always come to your rescue.

[HyperBitHero]

Well yeah I wasn't expecting it to go quite that far. Those games have options out the ass. But if I can enter every area in 2-3 different ways and choose to go stealthy or mix it up then I think I'll be happy. Basically all I want from this game in terms of unscripted is that AI stuff and animation stuff they've been talking about. Like I don't want him to take the same cover animation every time, or have the enemies react the same way and patrol the same routes all of the time or die the same ways every time. These guys are the masters at that kind of stuff so I'd like to see them take it further to the point where we rarely see the same thing twice in combat.

There is this very impressive cover animation in U3, when you take cover without a gun, and are not in combat. Drake with touch his hands and stuff. So I think they'll have a lot of variety in terms of cover animations. We still haven't seen with cover looks like with other weapons.

[Chuck Norris]

Naughty Dog nailed all of the small details, the graphics and animation, sound design, characters, etc. My only worry with The Last of Us at this point is whether the game will be overly scripted. I can picture the mission designers going "We want all players to notice Elle throwing the brick at this enemy, so even if the player has been conserving ammo and has a full pistol, we'll script it so that Joel's gun jams at this precise moment" or something like that. Where no matter how you play it's always the same result. I want to feel like I'm actually in control of Joel and making all of these survival decisions for myself rather than the game scripting everything for me. I'm looking forward to seeing the behind closed doors "stealth playthrough" demo to see if there's really freedom in the ways you can approach situations.

Why would they do that? Nothing they've shown indicates they'll be doing that

[HyperBitHero]

Wow you're the guy that did the diablo 3 videos. I'm glad you're a gaffer.

Oh no, that's VidyaGaymeLive. We both work on GatherYourParty, a non-profit site. I'm glad you know of our site, but I don't want to take credit from him.

[cyborg009]

Great video, To be honest at times I feel like if I were to be playing the game that those small little details would make me enjoy it less (like the time to take out a enemy or picking up ammo).

I also saw your Infamous video......... damn it

[HyperBitHero]

I also saw your Infamous video......... damn it

Was it bad or something? Did I spoil the game, or are you just saying you've seen my stuff before?

[PokéKong]

Oh dear heaven no, please do not let "tangibility" become the new buzzword to fill "immersion"s role of being repeated ad nauseum to bolster up every single big budget title.

[cyborg009]

Was it bad or something? Did I spoil the game, or are you just saying you've seen my stuff before?

I got Infamous 2 from PSN+ so after playing the first game I was expecting to see Alden.....

[HyperBitHero]

Oh dear heaven no, please do not let "tangibility" become the new buzzword to fill "immersion"s role of being repeated ad nauseum to bolster up every single big budget title.

I used tangibility for a reason. Things feel solid, like they're making contact. Not that it was immersive, though that is an effect of it.

I got Infamous 2 from PSN+ so after playing the first game I was expecting to see Alden.....

Well, now you won't be as disappointed as I was.

[Mikey Jr.]

Wow, never noticed the nose bleeding. Great video.

[Sean]

Why would they do that? Nothing they've shown indicates they'll be doing that

Simply because it's a lot easier for a developer to script things a certain way, especially when they're going for a "cinematic gaming" experience. Uncharted 3 for example had all these forced hand-to-hand combat scenarios where you're usually fighting a dude twice your size and I thought to myself, why can't I just shoot him? It'd make much more sense to shoot a gigantic guy than engaging him in physical combat. Kind of takes you out of the experience a bit.

well, Ellie throwing a brick is not a one off moment that will only happened in that specific time, you'll be encountering a lot of those over the course of the game. it's part of Ellie AI behavior. so the dev really have no need to force a gun jammed on you just so you see Ellie throwing a brick because unless you play the game perfectly ,you'll bound to see that action sooner or later. actually, some of us are worried if Ellie throwing bricks will get old after you see it for so many times, of if it will become your cheap free get away card where every time you run out of ammo, Ellie will always come to your rescue.

If it's truly an AI behavior and doesn't necessarily happen at that specific moment every time, I'll be impressed.

From the E3 demo it had a very scripted vibe - Ellie picks up the brick before they even enter that room (and when the player still had half a clip of ammo left). It didn't really feel like a spur of the moment AI decision of "oh shit, Joel is out of ammo so let me quickly find an object to throw and help him!", it came across as pre-baked.

Though I admit an E3 demo is not the best way to judge as it was obviously played through in a very specific way for demo purposes. That's why I'm looking forward to seeing the alternate playthrough.

[HyperBitHero]

Wow, never noticed the nose bleeding. Great video.

It also happens to the guy he beats up and then takes hostage. He get's blood all over his face.

[Chuck Norris]

Simply because it's a lot easier for a developer to script things a certain way, especially when they're going for a "cinematic gaming" experience. Uncharted 3 for example had all these forced hand-to-hand combat scenarios where you're usually fighting a dude twice your size and I thought to myself, why can't I just shoot him? It'd make much more sense to shoot a gigantic guy than engaging him in physical combat. Kind of takes you out of the experience a bit.

The whole scene was AI driven

[Callibretto]

If it's truly an AI behavior and doesn't necessarily happen at that specific moment every time, I'll be impressed. From the E3 demo it had a very scripted vibe - Ellie picks up the brick before they even enter that room (and when the player still had half a clip of ammo left). It didn't really feel like a spur of the moment AI decision of "oh shit, Joel is out of ammo so let me quickly find an object to throw and help him!", it came across as pre-baked. Though I admit an E3 demo is not the best way to judge as it was obviously played through in a very specific way for demo purposes. That's why I'm looking forward to seeing the alternate playthrough.

there's interview with ND about the AI behavior, they work really hard on the AI, Ellie will pick up object like bottle or brick if she sees any, and she will not always follow you from behind, instead she will see you and the enemy position and find favorable position to hide etc.

I forgot who did the interview, could be gametrailers or gamepot I'm not sure.