[Reg]

How's software programing doing? Applications and games. Is a lot of that being outsourced too?

[jorma]

Yes. You can find them at companies that are pulling their IT departments back in house after realizing what a mistake they made in attempting to outsource. That's where I've found a lot of great work.

Yep, this happened to us when we were american owned, they were giving exec bonuses for reducing the "head count" in the EU region so they outsorced everything IT to IBM at huge cost, took their reduced head count-bonuses and fucked off and managed to put the american mother company in so much shit that they had to sell off their entire presence in the EU markets. And then the new owners hired back everyone and we are now profitable again.

And as i work a lot with integrating our products with other companies internal systems i have plenty of experience on how much of a fucking pain in the ass it is to work with Swedish IT departments based in India. Sure it's always a pain when dealing with really large companies but sometimes i wonder how they ever get shit done. There is nothing "agile" about working like that :P

This outsorcing business is such a load of bullshit, but i guess someone is profiting from it. But it's not the shareholders, and it's not the employees.

[norinrad]

Interesting that this was posted today on the dailymail UK site

A junior technician in India caused the RBS computer meltdown which froze millions of British bank accounts, it was claimed last night. The ‘inexperienced operative’ erased a massive swathe of information during a routine software upgrade for the Royal Bank of Scotland and its subsidiaries NatWest and Ulster Bank, according to reports. The worker was understood to have been part of a team recruited in Hyderabad after the bank laid off more than 20,000 UK staff and outsourced work abroad.

[RJT]

I'm not American nor do i live in America, but will the people in Uruguay being using that money to shop in America or will they be spending it in America? Americans losing their jobs would mean local businesses are also going out of business unless you are Apple.

Why do you care about that? I'm sorry, but you can't go complain on the internet about americans losing jobs and not hear the reaction from non-americans calling bullshit. People need to get some perspective.

Regarding the broader topic, jobs are going away, and it isn't to third world countries, it's to highly productive companies that simply won't hire like old companies. Watson wins at Jeopardy, guys. You are not smarter than a machine. Lots of sources here.

Edit: link fixed

[Flying_Phoenix]

While its good that these third world nations get a real chance to develop, this could potentially take a stab at the middle class, just like the outsourcing of industry did.

Though I have to admit that all side of the argument of this thread are amusing.

[Aselith]

Why do you care about that? I'm sorry, but you can't go complain on the internet about americans losing jobs and not hear the reaction from non-americans calling bullshit. People need to get some perspective. Regarding the broader topic, jobs are going away, and it isn't to third world countries, it's to highly productive companies that simply won't hire like old companies. Watson wins at Jeopardy, guys. You are not smarter than a machine. Lots of sources here. Edit: link fixed

Depends what you mean by smarter. Machines are very good at straight-line calculation and very specific roles but they're not nearly as adaptable as humans. Humans will win for anything outside the norm for a very long time.

[RJT]

Depends what you mean by smarter. Machines are very good at straight-line calculation and very specific roles but they're not nearly as adaptable as humans. Humans will win for anything outside the norm for a very long time.

No, the only thing machines aren't better at is creative stuff. Not adaptable? The language barrier is nearly gone, you have functional virtual assistants and software winning game shows now. The cloud gives you access to supercomputers on your cellphone. And don't forget: with software, once you build it, you can replicate it for free.

[Puddles]

Why are american jobs more important than uruguayans?

The company is American.

Edit: Drek basically nailed it on the last page.

[JoeTheBlow]

Unless you are raising a family who cannot do without your benefits, you may do well to entertain the idea of embracing the contract worker economy. I've known quite a few guys in various areas of I.T. and development who can command an outrageous rate for what they do.

Quoted for truth.
READ, practise in VM's constantly, take exams, get certs and you can get jobs that pay an insane amount of cash per day.
There will always be work for smart IT guys with a willingness to learn new things. India is where the grunt work goes now. If you are a IT grunt, you're nothing, you have to keep up with the latest shit, and then you can earn lots trying to teach Indian fuckwits how to use the latest microsoft stuff.

Look for IT support jobs in the medical field. On site support, maybe even remote support for traveling employees, etc.

Best goddamn idea i've seen in a while. You have given me something to think about, good sir.

[Puddles]

Why do you care about that? I'm sorry, but you can't go complain on the internet about americans losing jobs and not hear the reaction from non-americans calling bullshit. People need to get some perspective.

How is anyone complaining about job losses bullshit?

[RJT]

The company is American. Edit: Drek basically nailed it on the last page.

Companies have no nationality these days. Welcome to the 21st century! (they aren't people either, in case you're wondering)

How is anyone complaining about job losses bullshit?

Because jobs aren't being lost, they are being moved. I would sympathize with the OP if he didn't make it sounds as he was more important than the people that are getting his job.

[Puddles]

Companies have no nationality these days. Welcome to the 21st century! (they aren't people either, in case you're wondering)

Your condescension is cute, but it doesn't make your argument any more worthwhile. Drek has already destroyed this line of argument pretty thoroughly, so I won't bother rehashing his post.

Because jobs aren't being lost, they are being moved. I would sympathize with the OP if he didn't make it sounds as he was more important than the people that are getting his job.

Are the majority of people in the OP's department losing their jobs?
Is there going to be a net loss of jobs in the country where the OP's company was founded when this move goes through?

[RJT]

Your condescension is cute, but it doesn't make your argument any more worthwhile. Drek has already destroyed this line of argument pretty thoroughly, so I won't bother rehashing his post.

I apologize for the condescension, I was being a bit of a dick there. Regarding Drek's argument, I absolutely agree. The U.S. government is not behaving in its citizens best interest. I fail to realize though what does that have to do with:

1. The company's decision (which is rational)

2. The people that are getting the jobs (which I'm sure are as deserving of that job as the OP).

Now, if the thread was about the US Government, I would stay away from it and Drek's point would stand.

Are the majority of people in the OP's department losing their jobs? Is there going to be a net loss of jobs in the country where the OP's company was founded when this move goes through?

This is a much more interesting topic, and I addressed that before. I believe that we are hitting an efficiency point which makes a lot of jobs obsolete, and due to the scalable nature of software (marginal costs are close to zero) the transition will be much more quick than previous agricultural and industrial revolutions.

That is a huge problem, and we need to address it. I don't think stopping progress is the solution, though...

[Tideas]

Because an American based company is taking advantage of all the massive benefits the U.S. offers and doesn't need to help pick up any of the slack when they outsource. Benefits America gives that almost no other nation can: 1. The largest talent pool of highly skilled workers (bachelors and post-graduate degrees) in the world. 2. The most skilled and versatile contracting market in the world. 3. The most dilligent IP/trade mark/etc. protection of any country in the world. 4. The market in which the vast majority of your product or your client's product will be sold (i.e. your customers for most products are almost always American). Those alone are why it's massively beneficial to be a U.S. based company. Add that the majority of U.S. based companies were (obviously) founded by U.S. citizens and almost all of them at some point in their transition from small business to medium/large sized business involved some form of government subsidy or growth initiative. Then once that company is established in the U.S. it then takes advantage of the best infrastructure (physical, legal, and technological) in the world, the vast majority of which is in some way funded by U.S. tax payers. If those companies were to have started in India or Singapore with the same ideas and the same products they wouldn't have grown nearly as fast. Take Apple for example. If the iPod had been an idea from a small tech company in India it would have: 1. had a built in language barrier that needed to be overcome for it's core market. 2. would have had a much harder time even making the right marketing contacts to find the right marketing strategy. 3. would have seen many of it's best ideas lifted much more readily by other tech companies (hence Apple's ability to legislate Samsung repeatedly over incredibly vague patents). 4. would have had a much harder time constructing a distribution channel. Those are just a few differences right off the top. So why should the U.S. gov't. extend all this privilege to U.S. companies when they fail to return the favor by employing U.S. citizens?

they are employing US citizens...in other areas. If you can do something for cheaper, why should you not?

It makes you more competitive, gives the company more money, and in turn creates more growth down the road.

Seriously...outsourcing is not the "evil" here. Btw, those Indians that are being hired in India? Guess what they're buying with their money? American products.

[MarkMclovin]

Yeah we have another department the same as us, over in Bangalore and slowly but surely our company is selling a cheaper service by porting our clients over.

Yes, they are cheaper (for now, but they are catching up with us pretty quickly) but boy are they terrible at their job. So bad infact that even though certain clients are paying for overseas support, we now have to support them over the Olympic period incase the shit hits the fan and they need a quicker response.

Our company is being taken over by a Canadian one in the next few months, so God only knows what things will change after that.

[jersoc]

my job out sourced stuff 2 years ago. it's been a head ache ever since. we have complained loudly and often how shitty the people in india are. i work for a company that does data processing for many banks. while the stuff is fairly unique, isn't not hard. these guys can't do the same shit they do every day w/o fucking up. it's mind boggling. the company even halted outsourcing more.

they also have terrible work ethics. constantly late, constantly calling in. 1 of them has called in more than anyone state side combined. they basically get free roam because no one has a spine to stop them. it pisses me off what they get away with that i never could. taking vacation is a pain in the ass because those retards can't cover for anyone because they can't even do their simple job as it is. plus ya know, they aren't state side. we're basically fucked if anyone calls in who works state side.

fuck dealing with those people. can't understand them for shit. i have no clue how companies think this is a great idea. it's nothing but a head ache for the rest of us state side. i won't cry a tear of something bad happened to them.

oh, but our company posted record profits for last year. so i guess there's that! good thing we got an amazing 1% match.

[Puddles]

I apologize for the condescension, I was being a bit of a dick there. Regarding Drek's argument, I absolutely agree. The U.S. government is not behaving in its citizens best interest. I fail to realize though what does that have to do with: 1. The company's decision (which is rational) 2. The people that are getting the jobs (which I'm sure are as deserving of that job as the OP). Now, if the thread was about the US Government, I would stay away from it and Drek's point would stand.

The idea is that even privately-owned companies should still have a civic duty to their countries of origin. They reap extensive benefits by virtue of having been founded here.

I suppose I wouldn't have an issue if they chose to expand into new countries, but current jobs, especially skilled jobs, should be kept in-house and should not be moved.

[RJT]

The idea is that even privately-owned companies should still have a civic duty to their countries of origin. They reap extensive benefits by virtue of having been founded here. I suppose I wouldn't have an issue if they chose to expand into new countries, but current jobs, especially skilled jobs, should be kept in-house and should not be moved.

Well, I don't have a nationalistic view of things, so i disagree. I don't think companies think in terms of countries either. It's government's job to do that.

Let's agree to disagree.

[Puddles]

Well, I don't have a nationalistic view of things, so i disagree. I don't think companies think in terms of countries either. It's government's job to do that. Let's agree to disagree.

It isn't even necessarily a nationalistic view. It's just a view that takes a lot more factors into account and looks at the aggregate results of trends like this.

The counter to my argument is a fairly simplistic worldview that basically consists of two points:
1) It's the owners' company; they can do what they want.
2) The people who currently have these jobs aren't more deserving than anyone else.

Whereas my view is based on a much more nuanced understanding of the relationship between a single company and society at large and is also concerned with economic growth over several decades.

[RJT]

Whereas my view is based on a much more nuanced understanding of the relationship between a single company and society at large

I don't deny the relationships between companies and societies. But is the origin nation the best definition for the societies to which companies owe their success?

Apple has been mentioned as an example for the "only in America" argument. But Steve Jobs himself said that he couldn't produce the iPhone in America and makes a ton of cash oversees that is now distributing to its shareholders (mostly american). Why isn't Apple giving back to those countries that are buying iPhones like crazy and get zero in return?

Besides, we don't even know the company the OP is talking about...

and is also concerned with economic growth over several decades.

Economic growth comes only from productivity gains (mostly from technological advances, but some also from organizational advances - like outsourcing). Everything else is a zero sum game between individuals/companies/countries.

[BigWeather]

Well, I don't have a nationalistic view of things, so i disagree. I don't think companies think in terms of countries either. It's government's job to do that.

That would be fine, if governments focused only on the country and companies only on the business. The problem is that governments do a ton for businesses and, increasingly, the recipients of that focus do nothing in return -- hire less, evade taxes as much as possible, etc.

It is a two-way street. Companies need to understand that. Yes, government does benefit from companies. But companies also benefit from government, as pointed out on the prior page.

[LM4sure]

Loss in efficiency, loss in quality, loss of knowledge, communication problems, workflow problems are all common problems in out-sourcing. Basically the people that think like you... are the same people that are not equipped to do outsourcing properly. It can benefit a few companies if they're in the correct positions and have prepared correctly for the issue, but in general - you're going to spend more in the short term to achieve that, then you would by retaining existing staff. I mean, to do it effectively, you'd essentially need a transition period where you're hiring both sets of staff to do the one job.

IT is the perfect area to outsource though. The areas they are outsourcing to are experts in this field and will probably be more efficient than their American counterparts were, all while saving the company millions of dollars. Win/win.

[RJT]

That would be fine, if governments focused only on the country and companies only on the business. The problem is that governments do a ton for businesses and, increasingly, the recipients of that focus do nothing in return -- hire less, evade taxes as much as possible, etc. It is a two-way street. Companies need to understand that. Yes, government does benefit from companies. But companies also benefit from government, as pointed out on the prior page.

My point is that they should.

[Jackpot]

Remember, the smart people leave first.

[BigWeather]

My point is that they should.

That's cool. I would love to see the gnashing of teeth if the government pulled all support for many of these companies that are so eagerly waving the "but we're a multinational!" flag (and those that aren't, too, fair is fair).

[Zaptruder]

IT is the perfect area to outsource though. The areas they are outsourcing to are experts in this field and will probably be more efficient than their American counterparts were, all while saving the company millions of dollars. Win/win.

oh stfu you trolling turd brain.

[rpmurphy]

A question to Ronito and other gaffers who know their stuff about IT : What's the outlook outsourcing wise regarding SAN admin jobs? Knowing I come from supervision/front desk and the the company is willing to train me from not knowing much in terms of the tech I'm pretty pumped anyway.

Like others said, cloud infrastructure is on the up and up. If the company's true interest does not lie in building and maintaining their own data center, then moving towards renting servers from Amazon for example could be a real possibility, depending on the cost of scale and other factors.

[RibbedHero]

I don't get it. Americans, and to a lesser extent us Brits, live and die by capitalism. Yet offshoring is seen as an affront to the economy?

[Riggs]

Companies have no nationality these days. Welcome to the 21st century! (they aren't people either, in case you're wondering) Because jobs aren't being lost, they are being moved. I would sympathize with the OP if he didn't make it sounds as he was more important than the people that are getting his job.

Bullshit. My mom and me both lost our jobs due to outsourcing. You don't know what you're talking about man.

[Joni]

You're job has been offshored and outsourced. Wow, that sucks. Anyway, IT consultancy is always a safe bet if you're competent.

[RJT]

Bullshit. My mom and me both lost our jobs due to outsourcing. You don't know what you're talking about man.

I know a lot of people that gained a job due to outsourcing. Should I go tell them that they are worth less han you?

[Infinity]

Considering all this, have any of you made the transition to a consulting role that focuses primarily on teaching?

[TxdoHawk]

I also began searching for new employment, but being in the tech support/IT industry, it seems like everything is going into contracting for short term employment, 3-12 months, or being farmed out to other vendors in the US or abroad.

Pretty much. Full-time employment for bog-standard onsite tech support is going the way of the dodo. I work for a retail company that is one of the last few that recognize the value of keeping internal techs...someday that is going to change, though, and I'll be replaced with yet another slob willing to do my job benefits-free for half the pay on a 1099.

I'm currently trying to figure out what my next career is going to be...unless you want to spend time and money on certifications and specializations in a desperate life-long struggle to stay relevant in the field, you may want to start considering the same thing.

Edit: Everyone and their mother is a "consultant" now, so I hardly think that is a safe long-term bet either.

[onken]

Some mod please change the title to more accurately reflect the OPs job, which is not to outsource. Coming in here I thought I was going to read the confessions of a cold-hearted manager outsourcing branches and raising profits and shit; when in reality :((((((((

Hahah me too.

[HarryHengst]

I don't get it. Americans, and to a lesser extent us Brits, live and die by capitalism. Yet offshoring is seen as an affront to the economy?

Capitalism for other people, socialism for us.

[Riggs]

I know a lot of people that gained a job due to outsourcing. Should I go tell them that they are worth less han you?

No don't tell them that. But when they lose their job due to them being outsourced, prepare to hear the same shit that I said.

Read back a page, some guy got a job via outsourcing. Then they outsourced him and his crew.

Also try watching Outsourced.



Awesome movie w/ super cute chick to boot.

And the ending .... so relevant to this topic.

[666]

This will all end badly.

[Puddles]

I know a lot of people that gained a job due to outsourcing. Should I go tell them that they are worth less than you?

WTF is this shit?

This has nothing to do with intrinsic personal worth. You and FieryBalrog are both starting to get pretty damn offensive with this crap.

I don't get it. Americans, and to a lesser extent us Brits, live and die by capitalism. Yet offshoring is seen as an affront to the economy?

Yes. Capitalism is dependent on a consumer base with jobs who can buy your products.

[params7]

I'm a programmer, and the company I contract for has an onshore and offshore team in India. It basically boils down to this: US programmers are about 3-5 times more productive than their Indian counterpart. We are also an order of magnitude more expensive.

I just wanted to add, I barely see any Indian names in the credits of video games when I beat them.

I think only jobs/IT stuff which is highly automated and set on fully documented procedures are not safe and will be outsourced to lower costs.

[kagete]

Wow a lot of people are flat out racist against indians here...

Anyway, Outsourcing is inevitable in this global economy, much like manufacturing moved to China decades ago, IT grunt work has moved to countries like India in the past dozen years. A lot of smaller companies approach it the wrong way, thinking that they should only do this to reduce cost, when they should only outsource to fill in the gaps in their company infrastructure and talent pool. There's also an immense gap in quality of contractors with companies like IBM, HP, Accenture, wipro, cognizant, tata providing grade A talent that cost almost 2-3x more than typical US employees and small indian companies that will provide you resumes/interviews with their best 5-10 employees but will actually only farm the work out to 20-50 college grads with zero experiences or business knowledge. It can definitely work for some companies if properly managed, but unfortunately the mismanaged projects get more press and gives outsourcing a bad rep. One key fact that may not have been mentioned earlier is that these same companies also employ a lot of US citizens either way since they need that onsite presence and domain knowledge that their fledgeling programmers won't usually have.

[Riggs]

Wow a lot of people are flat out racist against indians here... Anyway, Outsourcing is inevitable in this global economy, much like manufacturing moved to China decades ago, IT grunt work has moved to countries like India in the past dozen years. A lot of smaller companies approach it the wrong way, thinking that they should only do this to reduce cost, when they should only outsource to fill in the gaps in their company infrastructure and talent pool. There's also an immense gap in quality of contractors with companies like IBM, HP, Accenture, wipro, cognizant, tata providing grade A talent that cost almost 2-3x more than typical US employees and small indian companies that will provide you resumes/interviews with their best 5-10 employees but will actually only farm the work out to 20-50 college grads with zero experiences or business knowledge. It can definitely work for some companies if properly managed, but unfortunately the mismanaged projects get more press and gives outsourcing a bad rep. One key fact that may not have been mentioned earlier is that these same companies also employ a lot of US citizens either way since they need that onsite presence and domain knowledge that their fledgeling programmers won't usually have.

Quote me one post were people were disrespectful to Indians. Even I specifically stated I have nothing against Indians or the country. Would like to know who you are talking about.

[kagete]

Quote me one post were people were disrespectful to Indians. Even I specifically stated I have nothing against Indians or the country. Would like to know who you are talking about.

Just search this page for "fuck" and "indian" and you'll see at least 3!

Actually just search for "fuck" and skip the one about IBM and you're golden. No need to quote anyone.

[Lord Error]

when they should only outsource to fill in the gaps in their company infrastructure and talent pool.

That's precisely what my company does, and even that is not working out well 99% of the time. I suppose you are right about some of the small companies cheating with their resumes, because that would explain a lot.

[kagete]

That's precisely what my company does, and even that is not working out well 99% of the time. I suppose you are right about some of the small companies cheating with their resumes, because that would explain a lot.

We actually saw a guy's resume and interviewed him on the phone, but lo and behold once "he" got on US soil it was a woman now with wildly different skills.

[HarryHengst]

Just search this page for "fuck" and "indian" and you'll see at least 3! Actually just search for "fuck" and skip the one about IBM and you're golden. No need to quote anyone.

Not really, its just people complaining that the Indians hired to do the job are incompetent. But hey, have fun being outraged about nothing.

[kagete]

Well they are blanket statements about indian IT staff. I've had years and years of bad experience with them but I don't talk or post about them in the same way. I've also positioned myself competitively by comparing favorably against them with my employers.

[Riggs]

Just search this page for "fuck" and "indian" and you'll see at least 3! Actually just search for "fuck" and skip the one about IBM and you're golden. No need to quote anyone.

Oh wow, not cool. My mistake : (

[Ponn01]

I know a lot of people that gained a job due to outsourcing. Should I go tell them that they are worth less han you?

Well, the companies outsouring are already telling them that by paying them less then minimum wage.

[RJT]

No don't tell them that. But when they lose their job due to them being outsourced, prepare to hear the same shit that I said. Read back a page, some guy got a job via outsourcing. Then they outsourced him and his crew.

I get that a lot too. My answer is simple: you didn't complain when you got that job from American/British/whatever people, so don't complain now.

Well, the companies outsouring are already telling them that by paying them less then minimum wage.

They're not paid less than minimum wage.

WTF is this shit? This has nothing to do with intrinsic personal worth. You and FieryBalrog are both starting to get pretty damn offensive with this crap.

Since I'm being offended and also offending people, I'll get out of this thread. I know that this is a sensitive subject, and don't want to cause any harm. I'll just ask to think about the borderline racist arguments some people are using in this thread.

[Riggs]

I get that a lot too. My answer is simple: you didn't complain when you got that job from American/British/whatever people, so don't complain now. Since I'm being offended and also offending people, I'll get out of this thread. I know that this is a sensitive subject, and don't want to cause any harm. I'll just ask to think about the borderline racist arguments some people are using in this thread.

Heh RJT it's a lot different because the American company benefits from certain things within the state and federal government. Depending on the business.

My biggest problem is that companies just do not give a fuck anymore. I don't care if they give our jobs to people in China, Brazil, Thailand, etc. It's just messed up, if your country (assuming you are not a US citizen here I do not know) was outsourcing to America you should be pissed to. It does nothing to help the country, or their current workers. It's just about paying employee's less, and I mean a lot less. Shit is wrong.