[HP_Wuvcraft]

Why is rape the go-to punchy character building exercise anyway? It doesn't matter what medium it is, rape as the activator for female or male inner-strength is lazy & antiquated writing of gender period.

I though Alpha Protocol did an awesome job of twisting the concept of gender security by having one of the sex scenes actually be one of the mercs raping your character.

It went to blackout but that's exactly what happened.

[.la1n]

I'm sorry for derailing the thread. Please forgive me all.

Look what you did you little jerk.

[ShipTheCheese]

Who the fuck is Felicia Day?

*googles*

Seriously, who the fuck is this person?

[Emitan]

So f*** them before they even try, right?

Are you suggesting that an industry that can hardly treat female characters as human beings is capable of writing a story dealing with rape?

[Margalis]

When it's done right in any form of media, it's great. When it's done poorly, it's not. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt before I dictate what they can and can't produce.

Pretty much this.

Anyone who wants hard and fast rules about what shouldn't be allowed in fiction is veering very close to fundamentalists who ban books. The reasoning is essentially the same - no I didn't read the book but the very concept offends my sensibilities.

Is rape in video games or fiction overdone? I don't know. But even if it is an old or overdone idea can still be executed well and turn into a great final product.

I suspect that this won't be done well but to say a priori that the root concept should just never be used is extremely reactionary.

[Corto]

Who the fuck is Felicia Day? *googles* Seriously, who the fuck is this person?

Google didn't work? Bing it then.

[Marcel]

It's hardly a gaming trope. If it were I'd be able to name a dozen games with the same storyline. It's compelling to me. When it's done right in any form of media, it's great. When it's done poorly, it's not. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt before I dictate what they can and can't produce.

You can't apologize for your own flimsy reasoning AND give yourself a convenient out at the same time. Rape as an inner-strength activator has been a trite thing for years and some media is at the point where they parody such kinds of hammy writing because it's legitimately embarrassing. Games don't get a pass just because they haven't had a triple-A studio developed 'rape origin story' game yet.

[Chacranajxy]

It's not compelling unless you're new to the "rape/attempted sexual assault makes women into heroines" trope.

You haven't played the game, so you don't know that. Not that a niggling problem like that would stop you from complaining about it.

[ViewtifulJC]

Who the fuck is Felicia Day? *googles* Seriously, who the fuck is this person?

I think she's that one chick from Dr. Who

[HP_Wuvcraft]

I think she's that one chick from Dr. Who

No, FarScape.

[Yagharek]

So f*** them before they even try, right? And you talk about how the gaming industry is perceived by the rest of the world. What message does it send that you're willing to self-censor all content because it may not be to your liking? And we really are way off topic now. Apologies to all. I'm out unless more tweets from the mad tweeter ignite a larger fire.

Games can't (or haven't) really done any subject tastefully. So it stands to reason that some of the more touchy subjects should be given a wide berth in the medium until there are actually some competent writers in the industry.

Hell, for well written female characters alone you have to go back 7/8 years to get to Jade and Alyx Vance before you find any good examples. As if they are going to be able to develop well written characters who go through a particular trauma.

[Devolution]

You haven't played the game, so you don't know that. Not that a niggling problem like that would stop you from complaining about it.

Yeah how dare I speak up about these issues, if you have some real issues with me maybe you should PM me instead of being passive aggressive about it.

[Cursed Frogurt]

You can't apologize for your own flimsy reasoning AND give yourself a convenient out at the same time.

It's a damn good thing I didn't apologize for my reasoning then, isn't it?

Games can't (or haven't) really done any subject tastefully. So it stands to reason that some of the more touchy subjects should be given a wide berth in the medium until there are actually some competent writers in the industry.

So the answer is 'never try'?

[Dan Yo]

Yeah excuse me if I'm doubtful given how females are represented as characters in general that they can tackle such a complicated and sensitive topic. You haven't encountered Rape Revenge plot lines in films or fiction?

Not very often. The only one that immediately comes to mind is the Girl With The Dragon Tattoo. I have not seen it, but I thought it sounded pretty controversial and shocking that they went there. I don't recall thinking "oh, that old story".

Aside from that, and I know there are at least a couple others whose names escape me, I wouldn't call it a tired or overused story element. And in the case of gaming, it most certainly isn't.

[Margalis]

You haven't encountered Rape Revenge plot lines in films or fiction?

You mean like Ingmar Bergman's "The Virgin Spring"?

Why don't you create a list of concepts that just should never be used in fiction and I'll create a list of great works that use those concepts?

Sounds like fun.

[saltywalrus]

Wow, I just looked at Adam Baldwin's twitter. I never knew he was a right wing nutjob :(

[Zeitgeister]

This isn't your workplace or profession, but certainly civility is appreciated, yes.

I should have phrased it differently, since this exit remark shows that my view wasn't clear.
(not surprisingly though)

To me, the disconnected discourse of professionalism has nothing to do with the function role of the professional (which is neatly defined, and so on). Rather, it is one of or several strands of discourse that permeates all other forms of discourse and (real-world) communication.

which is to say that all forms of discussion and debate are influenced, regardless of whether or not we are "in uniform." The reason I frame it in terms of labor and not 'civil sensibilities', is because they are specifically being reinforced and exploited by managerial capitalism, not just 'neutral' changes in our sense of what civility means.

Just to rephrase that a little. Hopefully clearer. It doesn't matter much to the discussion though.

[MuseManMike]

I'm taking Opiate's contribution to this discussion as tacit approval for this tangent.

It's tacky and overused. It's not empowering in the way they seem to think it is. I want escapism and adventuring not their heavy handed emotional appeals that are exploitative with terrible writing to boot. Can't have male gamers project themselves onto a female protagonist? Just show her in a compromising position to force sympathy. It's shitty.

1. That's just, like, your opinion, man. It wasn't tacky when I saw it in Sons of Anarchy. I consume a fair amount of media: movies, books, television, games. And that SoA scene along with a certain movie/book released recently (Dragon Tattoo) were both excellently done. Both the episode and the film were well-received, iirc.

2. That's a different matter. I, too, agree that the focus is on the wrong thing.

3. Too many assumptions here.

[Devolution]

You mean like Ingmar Bergman's "The Virgin Spring"? Why don't you create a list of concepts that just should never be used in fiction and I'll create a list of great works that use those concepts? Sounds like fun.

Oh hark another strawman about a tired and overused trope when it comes to female subplots and story lines. God forbid fiction of any type ever undergo criticism for trite and shitty writing.

[Chacranajxy]

Yeah how dare I speak up about these issues, if you have some real issues with me maybe you should PM me instead of being passive aggressive about it.

[atheistium]

Just because people create things you don't personality enjoy doesn't mean they don't contribute anything. I'm not a massive fan of The Guild either but it's got a HUGE following so it must be doing something right. There are people who enjoy it.

Whether you like Felicia Day, Jessica Chobot, or Veronica Belmont or not doesn't matter. They're entertaining people in their own way. Just as Jeff Gerstmann, Geoff Keighley, or Angry Joe do.

I do think it's unfair to value someone's knowledge based off of their gender though. Chobot gets a lot of flack but she actually knows what she's on about. Same with Belmont and Day. Geoff Keighley has never had to prove himself to you so why does Chobot have to?

[cutmeamango]

Sure, but that's not really an answer. I think most people would say that the likely answer is no. Nathan Drake is a powerful character because of his strength and his depth. Showing a male rape scene would by perception make him lose much of his power with the way our culture is socialized to think about male rape. In the case of Lara Croft it seems that this is more about exploiting the fact that she's a female character and it's "ok" for them to face being raped.

If it played out like Lara's video (he kicks the shit out of the gay and shoots him in the face, after his advance), even if Drake didn't killed the guy, it would work.
I can't list from the top my head but I do remember a few Villain-Hero sexual tension (and cues to "rape") in movies, even if unwarranted by the hero.
If anything I believe that an actual attempt of rape in Uncharted, if Nathan Drake as the victim, it would be played out with humor. Maybe as an attempt to make that villain tension work, or just a crazed thug that felt he had the time to humiliate/enjoy Drake.

A serious tone rape (or attempt), as seen on American History X and other movies, would be assumedly more complicated. Generally, sad or not, male to male rape is taken lightly. So how to fit it in the narrative style from Uncharted (if not a reread)? This emotional trauma would have what type of leverage to the character or influence in his journey? I honestly can't think in a worthy construction right now, but will try.

Lara's event is actually (exploitative or not) well placed. Rape is a common occurance in those situations. Having her kill her first person and deciding she cannot weaken at challenges (as she doesn't in the video of that scene) is not actually a character building event, but a character demonstration one. Her friend is still kidnapped, this alone sets fear and determination, because again, they could kill/torture/rape her friend. They are not being willingly fictious there. The necessity or choice can be questioned and/or objected. But it is not far-fetched or "played out" as many try to paint it.
Again, we have to wait and see. The concerns may prove real when you actually play the game, and the event ends up feeling loose to the rest of the narrative.
But no one knows, assuming things based on the backpedalling is naive at best.

[Cursed Frogurt]

Not very often. The only one that immediately comes to mind is the Girl With The Dragon Tattoo. I have not seen it, but I thought it sounded pretty controversial and shocking that they went there. I don't recall thinking "oh, that old story". Aside from that, and I know there are at least a couple others whose names escape me, I wouldn't call it a tired or overused story element. And in the case of gaming, it most certainly isn't.

One of the most famous rape-revenge stories involves a man being raped. Deliverance. Great movie.

[outunderthestars]

I'm confused. How did this thread go from a Twitter insult to rape?

[CambriaRising]

I'm confused. How did this thread go from a Twitter insult to rape?

[PrinceOfApathy]

Not very often. The only one that immediately comes to mind is the Girl With The Dragon Tattoo. I have not seen it, but I thought it sounded pretty controversial and shocking that they went there. I don't recall thinking "oh, that old story". Aside from that, and I know there are at least a couple others whose names escape me, I wouldn't call it a tired or overused story element. And in the case of gaming, it most certainly isn't.

I spoke about The Girl with Dragon Tattoo in a previous Lara Croft thread. Its a beautiful film and if you haven't seen it, get on it.

In addition if Nathan Drake was raped in the style that Edward Norton was raped in American History X that I mentioned on the previous page. I don't think that would disempower him at all. Especially if its something savage and barbaric. I don't think he would be looked at, as "less of a man". He would be sympathised with, especially his female demographic, and the player would be out to kill someone. That is because rape doesn't disempower you, it is what you do afterwards that shows if you are strong or if you have been broken. That is where the loss of power comes from, not from the act, because anyone can be a victim. Its how you get back up and deal with life after that makes you a hero.

[Harlock]

The funny thing is that I don´t knew Felicia Day before. Looked today at all that discussion thinking "what, who are Felicia and why she have a day for her?" :)

[Margalis]

Oh hark another strawman about a tired and overused trope when it comes to female subplots and story lines. God forbid fiction of any type ever undergo criticism for trite and shitty writing.

So...I assume you haven't seen the Virgin Spring, but you're willing to dismiss it as trite and poorly written because according to me it's rape-revenge story and those must be bad just by definition? Or are you saying that Tomb Raider has trite and shitty writing - despite having not played it?

There is no strawman here, it's a real movie, and a good movie, that uses as a central concept the very thing you are arguing simply cannot work.

It's fair to say that some concepts are hard to pull off and may be overused, sure. But you can't go from that generality to claiming that a specific work that uses that concept, and that you are not even familiar with, is automatically bad for using it. Or that it's wrong to even attempt to broach certain material.

God forbid fiction of any type ever undergo criticism for trite and shitty writing.

You are not producing criticism. Criticism is examining a specific work, not throwing out vague statements about how you find some constructs inherently offensive.

[Akainu]

Everyone knows who Felicia Day is. I don't understand why people pretend not to. Is it to convince GAF that you're cooly detached and above such things?

I don't know who most game journalists (hell game developers even) are what would make her any different?

[Yagharek]

So the answer is 'never try'?

Based on the available evidence, there is a very very very small group of people who should even entertain the thought.

Pretty much any serious attempt at discussing something serious in games comes across as crass, shallow or amateur. (eg the morality of war in pretty much every game from Metal Gear, to CoD, to Splinter Cell etc).

[HP_Wuvcraft]

You mean like Ingmar Bergman's "The Virgin Spring"? Why don't you create a list of concepts that just should never be used in fiction and I'll create a list of great works that use those concepts? Sounds like fun.

Buh.

Good one.

[Count Dookkake]

You are not producing criticism. Criticism is examining a specific work, not throwing out vague statements about how you find some constructs inherently offensive.

lol.

Words have colloquial use.

[MuseManMike]

Based on the available evidence, there is a very very very small group of people who should even entertain the thought. Pretty much any serious attempt at discussing something serious in games comes across as crass, shallow or amateur. (eg the morality of war in pretty much every game from Metal Gear, to CoD, to Splinter Cell etc).

So, you would preempt any chance of that happening? Look, I agree. I would remove 90% of video game plots after the fact. But I would never suggest or consider those things to cease before they begin. And, besides, you and I may find those games/topics to be shallow, but there are a few people out there who appreciate some MSG4 themes. I may not care for that group, but I wouldn't take it away from them.

[Kinyou]

I though Alpha Protocol did an awesome job of twisting the concept of gender security by having one of the sex scenes actually be one of the mercs raping your character. It went to blackout but that's exactly what happened.

Wait what?

I guess I made the right choices because I don't remember that part.

Is that the chick who jiggles her cans in that gif?

It's kind of sad that I subconsciously questioned Belmont's journalistic skills for a second when I discovered that she's attractive.
That stuff is pretty rooted in our society I guess.

[Cursed Frogurt]

Is there a story behind the Belmont gif? Sounds like she's not the type to bounce her tits for attention.

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Wait what? I guess I made the right choices because I don't remember that part.

Well, it's not "really rape" because it's not violent (you're tied down), and you have the option to be into it, I guess. It's the Russian Merc romance scene.

[cutmeamango]

lol. Words have improper use.

There you go.

[MuseManMike]

There you go.

Haha! Too bad this isn't off-topic.

[Slayven]

In dealing with them, he's become one.

Sometimes to fight monsters, you must become one.

[Yagharek]

So, you would preempt any chance of that happening? Look, I agree. I would remove 90% of video game plots after the fact. But I would never suggest or consider those things to cease before they begin. And, besides, you and I may find those games/topics to be shallow, but there are a few people out there who appreciate some MSG4 themes. I may not care for that group, but I wouldn't take it away from them.

I wouldn't pre-empt it from happening. I'd just prefer that if they were going to do it then they get writers from outside the industry who have already demonstrated they can do a good job. And don't compromise on their work.

[Sunflower]

Well, it's not "really rape" because it's not violent (you're tied down), and you have the option to be into it, I guess. It's the Russian Merc romance scene.

Would it be considered really rape if the genders were switched?

EDIT: I want to know why people automatically dismiss a nearly voluntary actual rape scene. Why even I mentally wanted it, playing the game as well. I sought that out. Why? I don't know. Hands down it is actual rape, and I went for it, and I'm curious why, and why there's a more dismissive attitude around it.

[JokerOfSpades]

Up until one minute ago I had no idea a Felicia Day even existed.

I only knew about her because she was playing those shitty games based off of smartphone games at one E3. Like irl? Trying to eat foods quickly or something... looked like it belonged on a game show. Ah, watching E3 on G4...

[MuseManMike]

I wouldn't pre-empt it from happening. I'd just prefer that if they were going to do it then they get writers from outside the industry who have already demonstrated they can do a good job. And don't compromise on their work.

I'm going to make another tangent. That strategy doesn't work and I wish people would get that out of their heads. Writing for games is exceedingly difficult. You aren't just juggling themes and character, you are directly combating gameplay most of the time. It's a different beast that most authors underestimate. Look at Richard Morgan and R.A. Salvatore. In my eyes, they both failed to write/create something compelling; they are both highly respected in their genre. Game writers need to "get good" on their own. Bleh.

[JokerOfSpades]

She's a real life fruit ninja.

There we go.

[Sean]

See, this is exactly why I hate this whole thing. Everything you listed, ALL OF IT... none of it has been beneficial to gaming. Yet here you are saying she's done something for gaming, and when someone disagrees with you, you go on a tangent about sexism, because she's an attractive female. I'm not jealous of her popularity, but I feel like there's no reason she can't be criticized, which seems to be almost offensive to some folk.

Claiming that Felicia Day hasn't contributed a single thing to this industry is factually incorrect. She's been an active part of the gaming industry for years now and has an extremely large fanbase.

Why does she need to do anything more than simply being an entertainer/personality like everyone else in this industry? It feels like you (and some others) are holding her to some ridiculously high standard that can't possibly be met. Where she has to single-handedly make a huge contribution in order to prove her worth and gain acceptance. I can't think of any other gaming personality/journalist who's made a massive contribution to the industry, so why demand that out of her?

People are certainly free to criticize Felicia Day (I've done so myself), but I feel this particular complaint is silly.

[Flying_Phoenix]

So essentially:

- Stupid intern insults semi-attractive woman, who's job is to be a figurehead spokesperson, on her Twitter fanpage

- Followers on the site get pissed and start assaulting him

- Stupid intern accuses them of white knighting, even though they are likely defending her due to the fact of well they are her twitter followers so they must care about her to some degree.

- Stupid intern gets fired.

- Stupid intern not only says more things but he attracts a bastion of anti-feminist blowhards who act as if they are fighting for freedom against the evil feminist oppressors enslaving the natural order of the human race.

- Internet goes crazy.

- People forget that this is linked to fucking Destructoid. A site that is so irrelevant that when one hears it they think to themselves "Oh THAT site...who goes their anyway?"

Vidya Gayme Journalism!!!

[Cursed Frogurt]

- Stupid intern accuses them of white knighting, even though they are likely defending her due to the fact of well they are her twitter followers so they must care about her to some degree.

That's pretty much the definition of white knighting. Why do they feel the need to defend her? As Jaffe pointed out, she doesn't want them to or need them to. She handled it in a very classy way. Much respect to her.

[cutmeamango]

I'm going to make another tangent. That strategy doesn't work and I wish people would get that out of their heads. Writing for games is exceedingly difficult. You aren't just juggling themes and character, you are directly combating gameplay most of the time. It's a different beast that most authors underestimate. Look at Richard Morgan and R.A. Salvatore. In my eyes, they both failed to write/create something compelling; they are both highly respected in their genre. Game writers need to "get good" on their own. Bleh.

I agree, it concerns other mechanisms to reach an efficiency in storytelling and overall experience/entertainment (in games). And these attempts to produce a material that can be as efficient as good (Good, not materpieces. At least not yet.) books or film, are needed in my opinion.
Not to forget or move past the idea that games are well, games. They can be simple, they do not need complex stories or stories at all.
There is room for everything and those who create games are as capable or even more (due interest) of quality writing. They just need time to develop it.

[Kinyou]

Well, it's not "really rape" because it's not violent (you're tied down), and you have the option to be into it, I guess. It's the Russian Merc romance scene.

Ah found it, she definitely pressures you into it, but if you give a clear no, she'll still stop.

Still pretty interesting though, don't think this ever happened in a game before.

[Zefah]

moving to the next page.