[danwarb]

I don't get it. I've eaten it twice and I still don't get it. It's not even really good or anything.

There nothing quite like being harpooned in the guts. It's tradition, money and ignorance of the enormous cruelty involved. There's no cheap kind way to kill a whale.

[Dynamite Shikoku]

Still trying to be like Japan, Korea?

[kame-sennin]

It's pretty disgusting that people are even considering the idea that killing whales is ok.

Whale is delicious and as long as the quotas aren't top big, I see nothing wrong with this.

From what I understand, countries like Japan only hunt whale species that reproduce at high rates and are not in danger of dieing out. If SK is doing the same, then who gives a shit? It's just killing an animal for food.

Whales and humans (and other ape species) are the most intelligent animals on the planet. It's completely unethical to kill them for pleasure.

[Al-ibn Kermit]

For the same reason we find it morally reprehensible to eat apes:

Because they're intelligent? They do eat monkey meat in African countries though. What would you say if a pig is smarter than a whale?

One of the arguments if that they often bycatch endangered species, isn't it?

I don't know, but I only heard of that happening with tuna nets. Can you even use a net to catch a whale?

you don't need whale meat to survive.

You don't need to eat any meat to survive.

[kottila]

Whales and humans (and other ape species) are the most intelligent animals on the planet. It's completely unethical to kill them for pleasure.

Can you source the intellegence ratings of whales?. Searching just gives biased non-scientific sources mostly about orcas or dolphins which are different from the ones we eat. (i don't doubt their intelligence, pigs are higgly intelligent, I just want to catch up on the latest science). Found this article interesting, but it asked more questions than it answered: http://www.scientificamerican.com/bl...er-than-we-are

No one kills the animals for pleasure.

[kswiston]

Can you source the intellegence ratings of all animals. Searching just gives biased and/or non-scientific sources. No one kills the animals for pleasure.

Whales and dolphins are hard to test because they are alien to us. We evolved intelligence as a means to survive. I am not sure why whales evolved high intelligence. They are big enough to not worry that much about predation, and their food is plentiful and easy to find. They also are aural while we are visual, so communicating is hard. Communicating (and testing) is a lot easier with apes because we share more in common. Traditional animal intelligence tests are also biased towards the great apes (and humans) and probably underestimate other mammals (including elephants).

Traditionally the Great Apes, Elephants and cetaceans were considered the smartest non-human animals. However, recent evidence suggests that some birds (corvids) are a lot more intelligent than previously thought, and in some ways more intelligent than the great apes.

[kame-sennin]

http://www.livescience.com/18611-mar...an-rights.html

Another similar article:

Dolphins should be treated as non-human "persons", with their rights to life and liberty respected, scientists meeting in Canada have been told.

Experts in philosophy, conservation and animal behaviour want support for a Declaration of Rights for Cetaceans.

They believe dolphins and whales are sufficiently intelligent to justify the same ethical considerations as humans.

Recognising their rights would mean an end to whaling and their captivity, or their use in entertainment.

The move was made at the annual meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) in Vancouver, Canada, the world's biggest science conference.

It is based on years of research that has shown dolphins and whales have large, complex brains and a human-like level of self-awareness.

This has led the experts to conclude that although non-human, dolphins and whales are "people" in a philosophical sense, which has far-reaching implications.
'Self-aware'

Ethics expert Prof Tom White, from Loyola Marymount University, Los Angeles, author of In Defence of Dolphins: The New Moral Frontier, said dolphins were "non-human persons".

"A person needs to be an individual. If individuals count, then the deliberate killing of individuals of this sort is ethically the equivalent of deliberately killing a human being.

Intelligent cetacean behaviour

* A member of a group of orcas, or killer whales, in Patagonia had a damaged jaw and could not feed. The elderly whale was fed and kept alive by its companions.
* Dolphins taking part in an experiment had to press one of two levers to distinguish between sounds, some of which were very similar. By pressing a third lever, they were able to tell the researchers they wanted to "pass" on a particular test because it was too hard. "When you place dolphins in a situation like that they respond in exactly the same way humans do," said Dr Lori Marino. "They are accessing their own minds and thinking their own thoughts."
* A number of captive dolphins were rewarded with fish in return for tidying up their tank. One of them ripped up a large paper bag, hid away the pieces, and presented them one at a time to get multiple rewards.
* In Iceland, killer whales and fishermen have been known to work together. The whales show the fishermen where to lay their nets, and in return are allowed to feed on part of the catch. Then they lead the fleet to the next fishing ground.

"We're saying the science has shown that individuality - consciousness, self-awareness - is no longer a unique human property. That poses all kinds of challenges."

The declaration, originally agreed in May 2010, contains the statements "every individual cetacean has the right to life", "no cetacean should be held in captivity or servitude, be subject to cruel treatment, or be removed from their natural environment", and "no cetacean is the property of any state, corporation, human group or individual".

It adds: "The rights, freedoms and norms set forth in this declaration should be protected under international and domestic law."

Psychologist Dr Lori Marino, from Emory University in Atlanta, told how scientific advances had changed the view of the cetacean brain.

She said: "We went from seeing the dolphin/whale brain as being a giant amorphous blob that doesn't carry a lot of intelligence and complexity to not only being an enormous brain but an enormous brain with an enormous amount of complexity, and a complexity that rivals our own."

Dolphins had a sense of self which could be tested by the way they recognise themselves in mirrors, she added.

"When you get up in the morning and look in the mirror and know that's you, you have a sense of 'you'," said Dr Marino.

"They have a similar sense. They can look in a mirror and say, 'Hey, that's me'."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-17116882

Wanting sustainable whaling, just like for any other species we eat, is not anywhere close to "fuck anything that isn't a human". I'm sure animals would rather prefer to live in the wild and then be killed quickly, than having to live in an industrian farm setting

What an absurd choice. I imagine these whales would prefer being left alone, rather then being killed in the wild or being farmed for their meat.

Can you source the intellegence ratings of whales?. Searching just gives biased non-scientific sources mostly about orcas or dolphins which are different from the ones we eat. (i don't doubt their intelligence, pigs are higgly intelligent, I just want to read up on it) No one kills the animals for pleasure.

Killing another animal because it "tastes good" is killing for pleasure. No one in an industrialized nation needs to eat whales for survival. As for your question, see the above articles.

[SquiddyCracker]

Because they're intelligent? They do eat monkey meat in African countries though. What would you say if a pig is smarter than a whale?

I'd say that it would be morally reprehensible to eat them.

Then again, I'm a vegetarian so I find eating all animals to be morally reprehensible in most cases, but I understand that most people find it okay to eat animals. With that said, even amongst meat eaters you'll find very few who think it's okay to eat humans and human-like animals and as whales are very similar to humans I think it's reasonable to ask of them to not them either.

If you don't eat apes or support the eating of apes, then I implore of you to not eat whales or support the eating of whales as well.

[kottila]

I specifically asked for science about the type of whales we eat, not orcas or dolphins, which have a different type of brain (active hunters vs passive eaters http://www.scientificamerican.com/bl...er-than-we-are) and in relation to other species such as the pig.

Are you against hunting and/or meat consumption as well? Because if so then we would just have to disagree.

[out0v0rder]

you think thats cool south korea? here is what north korea does...

i love their faces

[danwarb]

Can you source the intellegence ratings of whales?. Searching just gives biased non-scientific sources mostly about orcas or dolphins which are different from the ones we eat. (i don't doubt their intelligence, pigs are higgly intelligent, I just want to catch up on the latest science). Found this article interesting, but it asked more questions than it answered: http://www.scientificamerican.com/bl...er-than-we-are No one kills the animals for pleasure.

I wouldn't eat a pig either, but I'm sure there'd be outrage if pigs were being dispatched with harpoon guns. It's less about intelligence and more the suffering of the individual for me. If these whales were super intelligent social animals, then the potential misery inflicted on others in the social group should be considered.

[ChiTownBuffalo]

For some reason, when I see Alaskan Native go out in the boats to kill their one or two whales they are allowed to. It doen't bother me.

When an industrialized country like Korea does it. I have a problem.

[Kurtofan]

anyway the earth will be destroyed eventually.

[Rommel]

[HolyCheck]

I think it is a bit hypocritical of the australian prime minister to be condemning other nations for the animals they eat. In Australia, the harvesting of koalas just to eat their testicles to make our national dish of koala ball soup and similarly the harvesting of wombats to make wombat stew is just not acceptable. Those poor nutless gumtree inhabitants of the bushland. Australia should be ahsamed. Bloody tasty though, like really upmarket chicken nuggets, stuffed with lobster. Kujira tastes good, gojira not so good. Please stop shark finning instead. At least we use 100% of the whale.

Given the rate these chlymedia infested rodents are spreading around the country, chopping off their balls is a good move!

[SquiddyCracker]

I specifically asked for science about the type of whales we eat, not orcas or dolphins, which have a different type of brain (active hunters vs passive eaters http://www.scientificamerican.com/bl...er-than-we-are) and in relation to other species such as the pig. Are you against hunting and/or meat consumption as well? Because if so then we would just have to disagree.

That is a pretty good article, and as for your question they do bring up the Minke whale as one of the ceteacans with such a complex brain that their intelligence might be equal to our own - but still be completely different in a way that makes it hard for us to draw direct comparisons.

The frontal lobes of the dolphin brain are comparatively smaller than in other mammals, but the researchers found that the neocortex of the Minke whale was surprisingly thick. The whale neocortex is thicker than that of other mammals and roughly equal to that of humans (2.63 mm).

The researchers' cellular census revealed that the total number of neocortical neurons in the Minke whale was 12.8 billion. This is 13 times that of the rhesus monkey and 500 times more than rats, but only 2/3 that of the human neocortex. What can account for the fact that whales have bigger brains -- and similarly thick neocortexes -- but fewer neurons? Eriksen and Pakkenberg found that there were 98.2 billion non-neuronal cells, called glia, in the Minke whale neocortex. This is the highest number of glial cells in neocortex seen in any mammal studied to date. The ratio of neocortical glial cells to neocortical neurons is 7.7 to 1 in Minke whales and only 1.4 to 1 in humans.

They have fewer neurons but more glia, and in traditional views of the glia, the neurons count for much more. But if glia process information too, does the different ratio in Minke whales mean they think not more weakly but just much differently?

According to wikipedia, the minke whale is the one we commonly eat.

[Kaako]

This is fucked. Damn all the sons of bitches doing disgusting shit like this.

[Dice]

sustainable whaling

prove it

http://www.scientificamerican.com/bl...er-than-we-are

Tangent...

Dramatic transformations in physiology and body structure were required to realize the hippo's dream of roaming supreme in the ocean. Jettisoning legs, transforming forelimbs into flippers, moving the nostril to the top of the head, developing sonar, underwater vision and hearing -- these evolutionary advances raise the question of whether the process of becoming fully aquatic might have been related to the very large brain of whales.

Talking like this isn't doing the scientific community any favors. They need to assume people know jack shit about how and why evolutionary changes happen.

[DonMigs85]

The minke whale is the smallest and most common of the rorquals. Bryde's, Sei, Fin and Blue whales have all become much rarer.

[jett]

hahahaha

[kottila]

prove it

Norways whale quota is 1286 out of an estimated population of 108 000. That is more than sustainable. Even the scientific committee in the whaling commision has suggested opening for a limited commercial whaling.

There would have to be some sort of strict oversight, as fishermen never have been the best at upholding legal quotas.

[kswiston]

The minke whale is the smallest and most common of the rorquals. Bryde's, Sei, Fin and Blue whales have all become much rarer.

We killed 95-99% of the blue whale population before whaling was banned.

Norways whale quota is 1286 out of an estimated population of 108 000. That is more than sustainable. Even the scientific committee in the whaling commision has suggested opening for a limited commercial whaling. There would have to be some sort of strict oversight, as fishermen never have been the best at upholding legal quotas.

Before we continue, they suggested that we could open a limited, sustainable commercial harvest. Not that we should. These are subtly different, but I don't want people to think that we need to harvest whales because there are too many of them in certain regions. Wildlife management groups DO do that for other animals like deer, but it is not the case with whales.

That said, I agree that a highly controlled, and conservative hunting quota could be sustainable. It would have to be reduced and raised depending on external population dynamics, and that would require sufficient population monitoring. This is done in some areas (like the Norway Minke Whale population) but not everywhere.

[awm8604]

Terrible. Whaling needs to stop. Hiding behind the 'scientific research' excuse doesn't work.

Cue 3+ more seasons of Whale Wars.

[surrealist]

Admiral T.O.P will destroy them.

[SquiddyCracker]

I get what people are saying by at least having whale hunts be sustainable, but it's pretty much like saying that it's okay to hunt for Gorillas or Bonobos so long as it is sustainable and doesn't threaten the species.

I am saddened by the people for whale hunts seemingly lacking the ability to extend their empathy to include whales.

[kottila]

I get what people are saying by at least having whale hunts be sustainable, but it's pretty much like saying that it's okay to hunt for Gorillas or Bonobos so long as it is sustainable and doesn't threaten the species. I am saddened by the people for whale hunts seemingly lacking the ability to extend their empathy to include whales.

I have plenty of empathy for all animals, even the animals I've eaten, fished/hunted or performed scientific research on. But whales aren't human, no more than pigs or dogs are. But I still do not want to see any of them going extinct or to suffer more than the absolute minimum.

[SquiddyCracker]

I have plenty of empathy for all animals, even the animals I've eaten and hunted. But whales aren't human, no more than pigs or dogs are. But I do not want to see any of them going extinct or to suffer more than the absolute minimum.

But they are potentially as intelligent as humans, does that not matter?
Would you also extend your rule to the other great apes, or do they possess some quality that make them worthy of better treatment that whales lack?

[blame space]

subquestion: which great ape probably tastes the best?

[SquiddyCracker]

subquestion: which great ape probably tastes the best?

Probably orangutans.
They wouldn't be too lean, as they are kinda lazy.

[blame space]

julia roberts was almost assaulted by an orangutan.

[kottila]

But they are potentially as intelligent as humans, does that not matter? Would you also extend your rule to the other great apes, or do they possess some quality that make them worthy of better treatment that whales lack?

There are many types of intelligence and methods of measuring it, but I haven't sern anything that suggests that the whales would hunt are on a different level than other animals (not sure about dolphins/orcas which are the animals usually referred to when people say that "whales are smart"). First of all, I don't equate hunting with bad treatment as long as it's performed correctly, but I would allow apes more rights than other animals, becaude not only of their intellect or also the similarities and close reation to us.

Edit: elephants are also thought to be intelligent, but I have no problem with controlled hunting, so that may answer your questions. I draw a line between humans and non-human. If they were able to communicate with us, i might reconsider

[blame space]

yeah but that's not fair at all, they live in the ocean. you can't expect them to be as similar to us as apes are.

[DonMigs85]

If they only had hands instead of flippers, just think of the great things they could do

[kottila]

yeah but that's not fair at all, they live in the ocean. you can't expect them to be as similar to us as apes are.

They did live on land and chose to enter the water again, so it's their own fault

[Ithil]

Wanting sustainable whaling, just like for any other species we eat, is not anywhere close to "fuck anything that isn't a human". I'm sure animals would rather prefer to live in the wild and then be killed quickly, than having to live in an industrian farm setting Throughout history and even today, people have done far worse things towards eachother than the relatively quick kill that happens in hunting

I'm gonna make wild, crazy guess here, and guess that they would rather not be killed at all. It's impossible to justify killing a whale beyond "they're tasty". Populations don't depend on whale meat to survive, there's no herd of whales on a farm. If you stopped all whaling tomorrow, there aren't vast populations that would go hungry.

Given the nature of the whale, "they're tasty" is a fairly weak excuse for harpooning them.

[SquiddyCracker]

There are many types of intelligence and methods of measuring it, but I haven't sern anything that suggests that the whales would hunt are on a different level than other animals (not sure about dolphins/orcas which are the animals usually referred to when people say that "whales are smart"). First of all, I don't equate hunting with bad treatment as long as it's performed correctly, but I would allow apes more rights than other animals, becaude not only of their intellect or also the similarities and close reation to us. Edit: elephants are also thought to be intelligent, but I have no problem with controlled hunting, so that may answer your questions. I draw a line between humans and non-human. If they were able to communicate with us, i might reconsider

The article you posted showed that purely based on number of neurons, neuron/body-mass ratio, number of folds, that the most commonly hunted whale (the minke whale) was very much like a human in terms of complexity. That, too me, suggest that it is intelligent in its own way, and combined with the observed social behaviors it exhibits, it might even be more worthy of the rights than dolphins and orcas.

But I won't draw out this discussion, everyone have their own lines drawn. It just seems like a tremendous mistake to keep on killing whales when uncertain about them, until the day we get conclusive evidence of them being as intelligent as us or able to communicate meaningfully with us.

Especially when we eat them pretty much as a delicacy as others have pointed out.

[LM4sure]

Well whales are not an endangered species, are they? I don't have a problem with them whaling. In fact, I'd like to try some whale meat. Maybe if I'm ever in Korea or Japan.

[DonMigs85]

Well whales are not an endangered species, are they? I don't have a problem with them whaling. In fact, I'd like to try some whale meat. Maybe if I'm ever in Korea or Japan.

Such madness

[blame space]

i think it's about time for the uprising to begin. someone teach me dolphin.

[kottila]

The article you posted showed that purely based on number of neurons, neuron/body-mass ratio, number of folds, that the most commonly hunted whale (the minke whale) was very much like a human in terms of complexity. That, too me, suggest that it is intelligent in its own way, and combined with the observed social behaviors it exhibits, it might even be more worthy of the rights than dolphins and orcas. But I won't draw out this discussion, everyone have their own lines drawn. It just seems like a tremendous mistake to keep on killing whales when uncertain about them, until the day we get conclusive evidence of them being as intelligent as us or able to communicate meaningfully with us. Especially when we eat them pretty much as a delicacy as others have pointed out.

Brain size and neuron counts does not imply that they think like us, which is something completely different.
If you were to say that intelligrnt animals were not to be killed how do we decide what types og intelligence to measure and where the lines are drawn? We all have to set our personal boundries and I separate humans (maybe great apes) from non humans. If we somehow learned how to communiate with animals, I might have to re-assess my choice.

Edit: sorry for the spelling and grammar, but I'm writing everything on my ipod touch (at 3am)

[Volimar]

If we could get Lucy Lawless to shift her ecological focus a bit....

[Ithil]

Well whales are not an endangered species, are they? I don't have a problem with them whaling. In fact, I'd like to try some whale meat. Maybe if I'm ever in Korea or Japan.

Actually, many whales are endangered, due to excessive whaling.

[kottila]

Actually, many whales are endangered, due to excessive whaling.

And some are not. Noone (in this thread) have said they are in favor of killing endangered species

[Ratrat]

They say it's more like beef actually, or horse if you've tried that.

But much worse than either.

[shanshan310]

From what I understand, countries like Japan only hunt whale species that reproduce at high rates and are not in danger of dieing out. If SK is doing the same, then who gives a shit? It's just killing an animal for food.

This is kinda my take. If the hunting is sustainable, its none of my business. If its hurting the whale populations, it should stop.

[thesoapster]

Oh wow, another ChiTownBuffalo thread about Korea. Why don't you start a live Starcraft video feed on battle.net, ChiTown? Show me your Galbi. Do they have teeth marks on them from all the Asians who've nibbled on those ribs? WE GET IT.

Holy shit :lol

[shanshan310]

Im not a animal nut or anything but it pretty stupid that Japanese whalers got 30 million from the disaster relief, and now all their ships are registered to the Japanese government. also the thing about taking 3 captured Australian citizens out of Australian waters, and no big deal was made about it internationally. Sea Shepherd is equally stupid though.

They weren't captured, they snuck up on the ship, jumped aboard illegally and demanded the fishermen stop everything and take them back to Australia. Which they eventually did. I have no sympathy for those idiots.

[Jake.]

'sustainable' whaling doesn't even exist in 2012, especially in the oceans/species where south korea want to hunt. i think sea shepherd are mostly ridiculous but at least they are trying to do something whilst everyone twiddles their thumbs.

[shanshan310]

'sustainable' whaling doesn't even exist in 2012, especially in the oceans/species where south korea want to hunt. i think sea shepherd are mostly ridiculous but at least they are trying to do something whilst everyone twiddles their thumbs.

Legal and diplomatic ports > Throwing acid at fishermen. In terms of solving the problem at large, as well as not being douchebags.

[Smiles and Cries]

watching the first episode of Whale Wars

All of these people who are whaling feel very strongly about it. They see them as cows and chickens, what do you say to people like this?