[BertramCooper]

This came out back in 2010, but I only became aware of it a few days ago. You can watch it online here.

It's a really well-done piece on how regional airlines often mistreat their employees (starting pilots often get paid less than $20,000 per year) and cut corners on safety, and how the mainline carriers who slap their names on regional planes do nothing to hold them accountable for it.

The doc focuses on Colgan Air, a regional airline with a long track record of mismanagement that led to the crash of Flight 3407 in Buffalo in 2009.

If you're like me and follow this sort of stuff, the documentary isn't exactly shocking or groundbreaking, but if you're one of the many people unaware that your United Express flight isn't really a United flight at all, it might open your eyes a bit.

There's also a follow-up called Flying Cheaper that focuses on how American airlines are outsourcing plane maintenance to foreign countries.

[gutshot]

I pretty much always fly Southwest. They are cheap, but don't seem to be run by idiots.

[BertramCooper]

I pretty much always fly Southwest. They are cheap, but don't seem to be run by idiots.

Same here.

You pretty much always know what you're going to get on Southwest - and you know it's not going to involve a shitty turboprop with an inexperienced crew.

[CrankyJay]

This came out back in 2010, but I only became aware of it a few days ago. You can watch it online here. It's a really well-done piece on how regional airlines often mistreat their employees (starting pilots often get paid less than $20,000 per year) and cut corners on safety, and how the mainline carriers who slap their names on regional planes do nothing to hold them accountable for it. The doc focuses on Colgan Air, a regional airline with a long track record of mismanagement that led to the crash of Flight 3407 in Buffalo in 2009. If you're like me and follow this sort of stuff, the documentary isn't exactly shocking or groundbreaking, but if you're one of the many people unaware that your United Express flight isn't really a United flight at all, it might open your eyes a bit. There's also a follow-up called Flying Cheaper that focuses on how American airlines are outsourcing plane maintenance to foreign countries.

4 of my co-workers died in that flight. =(

Would have been a 5th but he got a weird feeling or something and decided to rent a car and drive back from NJ.

[BertramCooper]

4 of my co-workers died in that flight. =( Would have been a 5th but he got a weird feeling or something and decided to rent a car and drive back from NJ.

That's awful.

I had a turboprop flight from Newark to Albany a couple of years ago (I'm pretty sure it was on Colgan) on a stormy day and it was terrifying. Since then, I refuse to fly on turboprop planes. It's the worst flying experience imaginable.

[BertramCooper]

Figured I'd give this one last bump before letting it die, just in case anyone else was interested in watching.

It's interesting stuff.

[DrForester]

As someone working on becoming an airline pilot, I'm fully expecting the first few years at Regionals to be horrible.

[BertramCooper]

As someone working on becoming an airline pilot, I'm fully expecting the first few years at Regionals to be horrible.

So I'm guessing it's standard for an up-and-coming pilot to work at a regional? Like playing in the minor leagues before getting called up to the majors?

[Stormwatch]

I've got a lot of friends that fly for regional airlines right now. They pretty much get paid nothing to start. I wish it wasn't like that. Imagine that a regional airline pilot makes less money than a taxi cab driver.

[DrForester]

So I'm guessing it's standard for an up-and-coming pilot to work at a regional? Like playing in the minor leagues before getting called up to the majors?

Pretty much. Very very few exceptions, but with the expected shortage in pilots over the next 10 years, it will probably be quick transitions. Demand will hopefully make regionals increase pay and treatment of pilots, as right now a LOT of US pilots are going overseas. I'm in a pretty good position, I just need to get more training under my belt. I'm a few months away from getting my Private license. Going a little slower than most so I don't have to take out $100,000+ in loans. I'm hoping to be in the $50-$60,000 range when all is said and done.

[BertramCooper]

Pretty much. Very very few exceptions, but with the expected shortage in pilots over the next 10 years, it will probably be quick transitions. Demand will hopefully make regionals increase pay and treatment of pilots, as right now a LOT of US pilots are going overseas. I'm in a pretty good position, I just need to get more training under my belt. I'm a few months away from getting my Private license. Going a little slower than most so I don't have to take out $100,000+ in loans. I'm hoping to be in the $50-$60,000 range when all is said and done.

Sorry, I'm going to keep picking your brain because I'm very interested in this topic.

If you had the choice of any American mainline, which one would you most like to work for?

[DrForester]

I've got a lot of friends that fly for regional airlines right now. They pretty much get paid nothing to start. I wish it wasn't like that. Imagine that a regional airline pilot makes less money than a taxi cab driver.

One reason is that regional have to rain pilots to fly the planes. Most pilots who go into these jobs have never flown a jet before. It's totally cost prohibitive for pilots to pay for jet training on their own. Some schools are using tiny jets to try and get a few hours of training in, but we're talking a few hours total time. Most pilots have flown mostly single engine prop planes, with some time in multi-engine planes. They essentially have to learn to fly all over again.

Sorry, I'm going to keep picking your brain because I'm very interested in this topic. If you had the choice of any American mainline, which one would you most like to work for?

Probably United, as I think they're the least likely to go under. And they have an international presence.

[jchap]

Growing up in a family that is into private aviation, I can hardly stand commercial airlines.

I'll take the turbo-prop all day long! Show up to air strip. Pre-flight inspections, drain fuel condensate, pull out airplane, load bags, and you are off. Also its great getting to land near whatever your destinations is. No restrictions to the mega airports. Out of all the regional air-lines I prefer southwest though.

[elrechazado]

One reason is that regional have to rain pilots to fly the planes. Most pilots who go into these jobs have never flown a jet before. It's totally cost prohibitive for pilots to pay for jet training on their own. Some schools are using tiny jets to try and get a few hours of training in, but we're talking a few hours total time. Most pilots have flown mostly single engine prop planes, with some time in multi-engine planes. They essentially have to learn to fly all over again. Probably United, as I think they're the least likely to go under.

southwest?

[DrForester]

southwest?

Forgot to mention that it's also because of their international presence.

[BertramCooper]

On a semi-related aviation topic, it sounds like the inevitable US Airways/American Airlines merger is getting interesting.

[Stormwatch]

One reason is that regional have to rain pilots to fly the planes. Most pilots who go into these jobs have never flown a jet before. It's totally cost prohibitive for pilots to pay for jet training on their own. Some schools are using tiny jets to try and get a few hours of training in, but we're talking a few hours total time. Most pilots have flown mostly single engine prop planes, with some time in multi-engine planes. They essentially have to learn to fly all over again. Probably United, as I think they're the least likely to go under. And they have an international presence.

Yeah, I've had the opportunity to sit in a full motion jet training simulator and it just doesn't compare to flying something like a Piper Seminole. Jets are FAST and require a lot of crew resource management training.

[DrForester]

Yeah, I've had the opportunity to sit in a full motion jet training simulator and it just doesn't compare to flying something like a Piper Seminole. Jets are FAST and require a lot of crew resource management training.

Outside of military fighter craft, there are only a small handful of jets certified for single pilot flight crew.

One such jet has been in development for over 5 years and is still in testing. The D-Jet (looks awesome)

[Nevasleep]

Isn't fatigue a major issue, but also that a lot of pilots decide to commute in (sometimes very long distances).

[BertramCooper]

Isn't fatigue a major issue, but also that a lot of pilots decide to commute in (sometimes very long distances).

Yup, that's mentioned in the doc.

Honestly, I wish it were a bit longer. It's still really well done, but some of the issues don't get as much time as they probably deserve.

[DrForester]

Isn't fatigue a major issue, but also that a lot of pilots decide to commute in (sometimes very long distances).

More a force to commute thing. The low wages mean that some regional pilot can't afford to live in their base city, and have to commute cross country to start their shifts. I think the co-pilot in that Buffalo crash a few years ago was living with her parents still.

[Stormwatch]

I supervise the Dispatch department of a business jet charter operator and we make our crews live within 2 hours of their "base" airport. We have all sorts of company safety rules in place that limit their flying during their first day of tour to account for that potential travel. That isn't required by law, though, so I'm sure there are a ton of operators out there that don't account for that.

[Vilam]

Interesting documentary, thanks for posting.

Looking forward to my regional carrier flight this Monday now! ... =(

[DrForester]

I supervise the Dispatch department of a business jet charter operator and we make our crews live within 2 hours of their "base" airport. We have all sorts of company safety rules in place that limit their flying during their first day of tour to account for that potential travel. That isn't required by law, though, so I'm sure there are a ton of operators out there that don't account for that.

That's the type of thing that should have been in the new regional laws passed after that buffalo crash. Instead they pass a law with a worthless 1500 hours rule. While experience is important, when you have tiny planes, so different from big planes, there comes a point when added experience in the small plane won't add much.

For my degree in Aviation Technology, I took an Airport management class where we did case studies with an awesome instructor who has written a few books on airport safety and management. Was pretty eye opening to see what changes were made after that accident and how it really didn't do anything but give the illusion of the government addressing the issue.

[gwarm01]

I have several regional flights coming up soon, one in Taiwan and a few in the States. I really didn't need something else to boost my flight paranoia.

[BertramCooper]

I have several regional flights coming up soon, one in Taiwan and a few in the States. I really didn't need something else to boost my flight paranoia.

It's worth repeating that you are extremely, extremely safe on any commercial air flight, be it on a regional or mainline carrier. The statistics speak for themselves.

But it doesn't excuse the fact that many regional carriers (and some mainlines, too) are trying to cut corners to lower their costs.