[Marleyman]

http://www.wesh.com/news/central-flo...g/-/index.html

In the early morning hours, deputies knocked on 26-year-old Andrew Lee Scott's door without identifying themselves as law enforcement officers. Scott answered the door with a gun in his hand. "When we knocked on the door, the door opened and the occupant of that apartment was pointing a gun at deputies and that's when we opened fire and killed him," Lt. John Herrell said. Deputies thought they were confronting Jonathan Brown, a man accused of attempted murder. Brown was spotted at the Blueberry Hills Apartment complex and his motorcycle was parked across from Andrew Scott's front door. "It's just a bizarre set of circumstances. The bottom line is, you point a gun at a deputy sheriff or police office, you're going to get shot," Herrell said. Residents said the unannounced knock at the door at 1:30 a.m. may be the reason why the tragedy happened. "He was the wrong guy and he got shot and killed anyway. There's fault on both sides. I think more so on the county," Ryan Perry said. "I can understand why he [the deputy] did it, but it should have never gone down like that," Perry said. Brown was arrested near the same building where Scott was shot. Brown and another suspect in the same case, Anthony Rodriguez, were booked into the Lake County Jail over the weekend.

Wow; that sucks to be the guy shot and killed. How do you not announce yourself if you are the police? What a mess.

[Deadly Cyclone]

Cops: Announce yourself.
Person who got shot: Don't answer the door pointing a gun.

[Magnus]

Cops: Announce yourself. Person who got shot: Don't answer the door pointing a gun.

Yeah, that's about it right there. Wow.

[WeAreStarStuff]

Cops: Announce yourself. Person who got shot: Don't answer the door pointing a gun.

Far too rational.

[Canis lupus]

That is manslaughter.

[Kinitari]

Cops: Announce yourself. Person who got shot: Don't answer the door pointing a gun.

Pretty much. The idea the dude would answer the door for non-cops with a gun pointed at them aint right, and was bound to fuck him eventually.

Cops should always announce themselves though.

[Eschaton]

did my man not use a peephole?

Shame, but this was handled terribly. Answering the door with a gun doesnt make that much sense to me, because in my mind an assailant would just sneak or barrel his way into my house I guess.

Im sure the police only instigated it after seeing the handgun though

[RubxQub]

Cops: Announce yourself. Person who got shot: Don't answer the door pointing a gun.

...and we're done here.

[Moral Panic]

Are peoples lives not worth anything at all? The idea that this sort of stuff can go on with no recompense is depressing.

[Marleyman]

The cops could have prevented a murder just by stating who they were though.

[pigeon]

"He was the wrong guy and he got shot and killed anyway. There's fault on both sides. I think more so on the county," Ryan Perry said. "I can understand why he [the deputy] did it, but it should have never gone down like that," Perry said.

Unbelievable. I'm not exactly an NRA member, but the guy was holding a gun in his own home. There's no way this should've happened.

Also, why does that article quote a guy named Ryan Perry without explaining in any way who the hell he is and why they were interviewing him?

[LaserBuddha]

Do you guys really think this thread will be settled so easily and reasonably?

Prepare yourselves. CHAOS REIGNS




EDIT: I see the circus has already started in the post above mine

[Mariolee]

You should probably bold that the guy was pointing a gun at the police officers before some eager beaver GAF member talks about how terrible the police are.

[neptunes]

Pretty much. The idea the dude would answer the door for non-cops with a gun pointed at them aint right, and was bound to fuck him eventually. Cops should always announce themselves though.

I can only assume they were knocking pretty hard (and shouting at him to open the door), so he got scared a got a gun.

Not to mention it was 1:30 in the morning.

I don't think he usually answers the door with a gun in hand.

[Moral Panic]

Furthermore, one has no reason to even believe the police when they say he was pointing the gun at them.

[echoshifting]

Cops: Announce yourself. Person who got shot: Don't answer the door pointing a gun.

It really is that simple.

[2San]

You should probably bold that the guy was pointing a gun at the police officers before some eager beaver GAF member talks about how terrible the police are.

Obviously the guy at home is at fault too, but the police officers in this case are terrible.

edit:

I can only assume they were knocking pretty hard (and shouting at him to open the door), so he got scared a got a gun. Not to mention it was 1:30 in the morning. I don't think he usually answers the door with a gun in hand.

This is a good point, I didn't notice.

[alphaNoid]

Baiting thread title. Not that the guy who was killed is to blame really and I feel terrible but he was shot only because he answered the door and pointed a gun at officers.

A tragic set of circumstances that should never have happened.

[Kinitari]

I can only assume they were knocking pretty hard (and shouting at him to open the door), so he got scared a got a gun. Not to mention it's weird to get strange visitors 1:30 in the morning. I don't think he always answers the door with a gun in hand.

That makes sense, if the cops were just banging on the door screaming "OPEN UP MR. BLANK, WE KNOW YOU'RE INSIDE"

Dude might have been reasonable for grabbing a gun.

[Kinyou]

Unbelievable. I'm not exactly an NRA member, but the guy was holding a gun in his own home. There's no way this should've happened. Also, why does that article quote a guy named Ryan Perry without explaining in any way who the hell he is and why they were interviewing him?

Yeah, it might be somewhat drastic etc. but seems to me like the guy didn't do actually anything wrong.

[Marleyman]

Furthermore, one has no reason to even believe the police when they say he was pointing the gun at them.

That is another problem I have with this; to cover their own asses they could have said he had the gun pointed at them. We just don't know however bottom line is that someone who was minding their own business and their property was shot and murdered by a cop.

[nny]

[Beerman462]

Who answers the door without looking out a peep hole or window especially at 1:30 am or if that's not possible wouldn't you say "Who is it?
I had a cop knock on my door at midnight once, just to tell me my garage was open. He didn't announce himself that's just stupid. Should cops always knock and yell "Its the police"

[Ezalc]

Why not try to shoot the guy in the leg(s) or in the arm(s)? He'd probably drop the gun and would at least have a better chance of surviving.

[BattleMonkey]

Unbelievable. I'm not exactly an NRA member, but the guy was holding a gun in his own home. There's no way this should've happened. Also, why does that article quote a guy named Ryan Perry without explaining in any way who the hell he is and why they were interviewing him?

Even if it's your home, the law doesn't allow you to open your door or point guns at people to threaten them.

[LaserBuddha]

Why not try to shoot the guy in the leg(s) or in the arm(s)? He'd probably drop the gun and would at least have a better chance of surviving.

Don't do this. We've got enough crazies crying murder and cover up right out of the gate without you starting on this meme. :/

[Stumpokapow]

Cops: Announce yourself. Person who got shot: Don't answer the door pointing a gun.

People aren't allowed to answer the door in the middle of the night while holding their gun? It kinda feels like a natural consequence of allowing private gun ownership for self defence is that people are going to hold their guns in situations where they feel they might need to defend themselves.

If the cops kicked his door in, would it have been okay for him to come downstairs with his gun? The consequence (dude getting shot) would have been the same, but his part in his own demise would have been lessened or theirs greater?

I basically feel like if you legally allow people to have guns for self defence, you need to recognize it's possible that two people might both have guns for self defence, and so the other person merely having a gun is not threat enough to fire yours. You know what I mean?

[Ninja Scooter]

If he lives in the kind of neighborhoods where the cops dispatch swat teams at 1 in the morning to try and take out criminals, he probably has some good cause to answer the door with a gun in his hand. Not the smartest thing in the world but it doesn't justify him being dead.

[echoshifting]

Why not try to shoot the guy in the leg(s) or in the arm(s)? He'd probably drop the gun and would at least have a better chance of surviving.

There's a reasonably high chance he would not drop the gun or would be able to recover it and shoot them before they were able to restrain them. They never shoot to disable/disarm.

[R2D4]

Even if it's your home, the law doesn't allow you to open your door or point guns at people to threaten them.

If that really happened. While I have nothing to back it up it is totally believable that the cops just assumed it was the suspect and they saw the gun so they shot him. Either that or the guy was really an idiot and pointed a gun at cops. Hopefully the cops were uniformed cops and not plain clothes officers. The article doesn't say.

[pigeon]

You should probably bold that the guy was pointing a gun at the police officers before some eager beaver GAF member talks about how terrible the police are.

In case we've all mysteriously forgotten our positions from last time, Florida has both the castle doctrine and a stand-your-ground law.

776.013 Home protection; use of deadly force; presumption of fear of death or great bodily harm.— (1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if: (a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person’s will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and (b) The person who uses defensive force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry or unlawful and forcible act was occurring or had occurred.

So, what exactly were the cops doing? Because if he thought that somebody was trying to break down his door or otherwise do something illegal, he's not only within his rights to point the gun at them, he's within his rights to SHOOT them according to Florida. I am a little incredulous that I am defending gun rights here, but there you go.

[Kinyou]

Why not try to shoot the guy in the leg(s) or in the arm(s)? He'd probably drop the gun and would at least have a better chance of surviving.

Guy should have shot the cops in the leg before they shoot him

[Shamrock7r]

Why not try to shoot the guy in the leg(s) or in the arm(s)? He'd probably drop the gun and would at least have a better chance of surviving.

Nice attempt

[FStop7]

No-knock warrants or unannounced warrants should be banned. I get serving warrants is probably the most dangerous part of the job, but this is not an uncommon thing.

A few years ago some cops in Atlanta paid an informant to swear that a certain house was a drug house (it wasn't). The detectives then went in shooting, and the owner - a 92 year old woman, shot two of the cops in self defense before they killed her.

A lot of heads rolled in Atlanta PD after this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathryn_Johnston_shooting

[neptunes]

None of you have at least picked up a baseball bat when you hear your door knocking at some ungodly hour in the morning?

[LaserBuddha]

People aren't allowed to answer the door in the middle of the night while holding their gun?

I think you meant to phrase this as "answer the door while pointing a gun at them". But that kind of invalidates the rest of the post.

The detectives then went in shooting, and the owner - a 92 year old woman, shot two of the cops in self defense before they killed her.

HOLY CRAP

[Valnen]

Are peoples lives not worth anything at all? The idea that this sort of stuff can go on with no recompense is depressing.

He was armed. They had to defend themselves. The cops were in the wrong for not announcing themselves but they really had no choice in how they reacted after the maniac answered the door.

[Jarmel]

If he lives in the kind of neighborhoods where the cops dispatch swat teams at 1 in the morning to try and take out criminals, he probably has some good cause to answer the door with a gun in his hand. Not the smartest thing in the world but it doesn't justify him being dead.

This. The cops fucked up pretty clearly in that they didn't announce themselves and thus led to these tragic circumstances.

[danwarb]

Guns for all seems like a pretty bad idea, unless you're okay with lots of accidental deaths by misunderstanding.

He was armed. They had to defend themselves. The cops were in the wrong for not announcing themselves but they really had no choice in how they reacted after the maniac answered the door.

They were armed and banging on his door in the middle of the night, he had to defend himself.

[echoshifting]

I basically feel like if you legally allow people to have guns for self defence, you need to recognize it's possible that two people might both have guns for self defence, and so the other person merely having a gun is not threat enough to fire yours. You know what I mean?

Holding a gun, sure. Aiming a gun, though? Whoever he's aiming the gun at is a finger twitch away from death, there simply isn't enough time between him deciding to shoot the gun and actually shooting it for the officer to do anything about it.

If he was merely holding it I retract the point, but I don't think it's reasonable to open your door and immediately point your gun at the person on the other side of it unless the potential threat is quite extreme.

So, what exactly were the cops doing? Because if he thought that somebody was trying to break down his door or otherwise do something illegal, he's not only within his rights to point the gun at them, he's within his rights to SHOOT them according to Florida. I am a little incredulous that I am defending gun rights here, but there you go.

Oh, I missed that this happened in Florida. Well, that's going to make it more or less impossible to discuss. Love that SYG :P

[Eschaton]

None of you have at least picked up a baseball bat when you hear your door knocking at some ungodly hour in the morning?

When someone has the courtesy to knock... Then odds are they arent trying to run up on you.

Either way scoping it out before you open the door using windows is the right answer

[BattleMonkey]

People aren't allowed to answer the door in the middle of the night while holding their gun? It kinda feels like a natural consequence of allowing private gun ownership for self defence is that people are going to hold their guns in situations where they feel they might need to defend themselves. If the cops kicked his door in, would it have been okay for him to come downstairs with his gun? The consequence (dude getting shot) would have been the same, but his part in his own demise would have been lessened or theirs greater? I basically feel like if you legally allow people to have guns for self defence, you need to recognize it's possible that two people might both have guns for self defence, and so the other person merely having a gun is not threat enough to fire yours. You know what I mean?

Legally no you are not even with the castle doctrine laws. Answering the door with pointing a gun at someone does not fall under the castle doctrine either as no one entered your home or broke into it.

Self defense laws (well maybe not in TX since anything goes) don't allow you either to have your gun in possession or used in a threatning manner, the only time a gun is supposed to be out is for the use of actually shooting someone in defense, otherwise the gun is supposed to be kept out of site. You can't aim a gun at someone as a deterrent, as that will get you in trouble.

In case we've all mysteriously forgotten our positions from last time, Florida has both the castle doctrine and a stand-your-ground law. So, what exactly were the cops doing? Because if he thought that somebody was trying to break down his door or otherwise do something illegal, he's not only within his rights to point the gun at them, he's within his rights to SHOOT them according to Florida. I am a little incredulous that I am defending gun rights here, but there you go.

Uh no even the FL laws don't allow this. FL law does not allow you to AIM a gun at someone in a threatning manner. This is drilled into you when taking CW permit courses in the state as pointing a weapon at someone will get you arrested as you are potentially making a situation escalate. A gun in FL is never supposed to be visible, only time a weapon is to be removed is to shoot to defend.

Someone knocking at your door has nothing to do with standing your ground laws or the castle doctrine unless the officers tried to force themselves in without announcing themselves as cops.

[R2D4]

Guns for all seems like a pretty bad idea, unless you're okay with lots of accidental deaths by misunderstanding.

This case has nothing to do with gun laws. Don't try to derail the thread.

[MidgarBlowedUp]

["The bottom line is, you point a gun at a deputy sheriff or police office, you're going to get shot," Herrell said.

The bottom line is your a murderer and a piece of shit.

[2San]

In case we've all mysteriously forgotten our positions from last time, Florida has both the castle doctrine and a stand-your-ground law. So, what exactly were the cops doing? Because if he thought that somebody was trying to break down his door or otherwise do something illegal, he's not only within his rights to point the gun at them, he's within his rights to SHOOT them according to Florida. I am a little incredulous that I am defending gun rights here, but there you go.

Damn, so what happens in this case? Or are cops basically allowed to do anything?

[Deadly Cyclone]

People aren't allowed to answer the door in the middle of the night while holding their gun? It kinda feels like a natural consequence of allowing private gun ownership for self defence is that people are going to hold their guns in situations where they feel they might need to defend themselves. If the cops kicked his door in, would it have been okay for him to come downstairs with his gun? The consequence (dude getting shot) would have been the same, but his part in his own demise would have been lessened or theirs greater? I basically feel like if you legally allow people to have guns for self defence, you need to recognize it's possible that two people might both have guns for self defence, and so the other person merely having a gun is not threat enough to fire yours. You know what I mean?

Agreed. I think the whole thing hinges on the fact that the dude was pointing the gun when he opened the door more than the fact that he was carrying it though. If he had it in his hands when he opened the door in a visual attempt to thwart an attempted burglar or whoever he thought was there, it may have ended differently.

Cops should have shouted or something, but I wonder if they were trying to surprise the murder and just had false info.

[Copernicus]

Don't they train cops to shoot the guns out of people's hands anymore? Jeez.

At the very least they should have aimed for the barrel so they can lodge a bullet in there and incapacitate the weapon.

[Hero_of_the_Day]

Why the fuck would they not announce themselves as they entered? I thought they were supposed to? Also, unless there was someone in a seperate part of the house to protect, I would think the wise thing to do would be to get into a bedroom or something with a door closed and call the cops. Now, if that door opens you start shooting.

[Valnen]

The bottom line is your a murderer and a piece of shit.

If a cop shoots someone who is potentially going to shoot them it isn't murder, sorry.

[Beerman462]

None of you have at least picked up a baseball bat when you hear your door knocking at some ungodly hour in the morning?

Yes then I look or ask to see who's there I don't answer the door blindly with it cocked back.