[Valnen]

If you think that each and every front door is lit up. I got news for you.

If I was paranoid enough to feel I needed a gun to answer my door with not only would my front door be lit up, I'd have a security camera to see exactly who is on the other side.

[aggro crag]

1. Look up the definition of murder 2. What's the alternative reaction for an officer when someone opens a door aiming a gun at them? Serious question This is a shitty situation and the cops should have announced themselves, but a lot of you are sacrificing rationality for your hatred of police.

At 1:30 in the morning. The dude that got shot might have a good reason to be a little worried when a stranger knocks that early.

[LaserBuddha]

I guess I'm trying to analyze your position here. I'm not really interested in the question of what the officer should have done once the guy opened the door pointing the gun at him -- but you seem to be suggesting that the officer shouldn't face consequences for their actions here, and I think they absolutely should, because their choices were responsible for the entire situation.

Never said anything about that. I think the shooting was justified. It was unfortunate that it was necessary and I wish it hadn't happened, but I don't see any other options if police officers are expected to defend their own lives.

The only consequences in question are in regard to them not announcing themselves. That's really gonna hinge on what their policies are. I don't know that there is a logical basis for requiring an officer to shout their identity when knocking, as opposed to when the person answers the door or asks who is there. What exactly is the problem with that, anyway? An officer not shouting their identity only presents a danger if the person in the home reacts in an irrational/illegal way. I really think it's a moot point though, because it does not justify pointing a gun at them either way.

Like I said, I would like to know more about what exactly the officers were doing at the door, but unfortunately one of the primary witnesses to the event is dead now.

Since a lot of people in this thread assume that anything the police say is a lie until proven otherwise, there wont be a rational debate about it.

[BattleMonkey]

If I was paranoid enough to feel I needed a gun to answer my door with not only would my front door be lit up, I'd have a security camera to see exactly who is on the other side.

It's more reasonable to not open your door. Or if you are concerned, yell out or try to talk to the person outside without opening it. Opening a door with a gun out is beyond dumb and can get you arrested or worse, like what happens here.

If you feel scared that someone is banging on your door and they might try to come in, call 911. If they come into your home, then you are justified and allowed to shoot them.

[Wafflecakes]

Cops are a allowed to shoot people pointing guns at them, but you're not allowed to shoot a cop pointing a gun at you... kinda unfair when you think about it :P

Cops: Your are under arrest!

You: NO YOU ARE!

Cops: God damnit.....

Totally fair.


(aka your relationship with police is not supposed to be fair or equal)




Anyways my position on this. If he was actually pointing gun at cops when he opened the door its a sad story but cops not at fault. If he wasn't though still sad story and cops at fault. We will never know though.

[Hero_of_the_Day]

For me it boils down to whether or not he was really pointing the gun at them.

Same. If he opened the door and pointed a gun, this outcome is to be expected. You don't point a gun at something unless you intend to kill it. If he was simply holding a gun, the cops should have ordered him to drop it, not opened fire.

[Mudkips]

Cops: Your are under arrest! You: NO YOU ARE! Cops: God damnit..... Totally fair. (aka your relationship with police is not supposed to be fair or equal)

Until you're arrested, you're served a warrant, or you've exhibited probable cause, your relationship with police is definitely supposed to be fair and equal.

They are not above the law and they are not allowed to violate your rights.

[Kinyou]

Were they aiming guns at the guy or had them out? The story doesn't mention this, simply says they were knocking on the door.

I think what he means is that if they guy had actually had wanted to shot them, he would have done it. (and ironically, saved his live that way. well, until the death sentence)

[LaserBuddha]

Until you're arrested, you're served a warrant, or you've exhibited probable cause, your relationship with police is definitely supposed to be fair and equal. They are not above the law and they are not allowed to violate your rights.

They aren't above the law and they aren't allowed to violate your rights, but the relationship isn't and shouldn't be "fair and equal" in the context you are responding to: using guns. That's insane.

[randomrosso]

It was the officers' fault, if that article is accurate. A simple "Police, open up!" would've avoided the entire situation... instead of you know, banging on the door at 0130 (and you just know that if they were looking for someone accused of murder, they weren't being 'polite' about it)

Those involved should be disciplined for it.

[Wafflecakes]

Until you're arrested, you're served a warrant, or you've exhibited probable cause, your relationship with police is definitely supposed to be fair and equal. They are not above the law and they are not allowed to violate your rights.

Me thinks answering the door with a gun pointed is a fair exhibit of probable cause. Who does that?

[pigeon]

Never said anything about that. I think the shooting was justified. It was unfortunate that it was necessary and I wish it hadn't happened, but I don't see any other options if police officers are expected to defend their own lives. The only consequences in question are in regard to them not announcing themselves.

This is gratifying, since it is, indeed, the exact argument I attributed to you -- that officers shouldn't face charges or responsibility for shootings they committed in the line of duty, even if those shootings are directly traceable to bad or illegal decisions they made. It should be clear why I don't agree with that.

[LaserBuddha]

It was the officers' fault, if that article is accurate. A simple "Police, open up!" would've avoided the entire situation... instead of you know, banging on the door at 0130 (and you just know that if they were looking for someone accused of murder, they weren't being 'polite' about it) Those involved should be disciplined for it.

Do you understand the actions of the guy who was shot? Do you know what's considered acceptable for self defense?


Cops don't shout that they are cops: A debatable subject. Simply knocking by itself doesn't justify a violent reply or put anyone in danger, and it can be argued that identifying themselves and waiting just puts the police in more danger.

Aiming a gun at someone because they knocked on your door: Incredibly reckless, catalytic, and irrational. The actual cause of the shooting.


I don't understand what mental gymnastics it takes to place most or all of the blame for this situation on the police.

This is gratifying, since it is, indeed, the exact argument I attributed to you -- that officers shouldn't face charges or responsibility for shootings they committed in the line of duty, even if those shootings are directly traceable to bad or illegal decisions they made. It should be clear why I don't agree with that.

Did you read? I said that whether or not they should face consequences has to do with the legality/policy about knocking without shouting your identity. Which is exactly what you're saying, unless I guess it's a forgone conclusion that knocking in such a way is considered a bad or illegal choice? I really don't see where these made up analyses of my posts are coming from.

[BattleMonkey]

It was the officers' fault, if that article is accurate. A simple "Police, open up!" would've avoided the entire situation... instead of you know, banging on the door at 0130 (and you just know that if they were looking for someone accused of murder, they weren't being 'polite' about it) Those involved should be disciplined for it.

It's both parties fault. They should have announced themselves if they are just knocking. While also a person is not supposed to open the door with a gun a out under any circumstance. The officers though probably should be disciplined and announcing yourself should be standard especially at such an hour.

[Wafflecakes]

This is gratifying, since it is, indeed, the exact argument I attributed to you -- that officers shouldn't face charges or responsibility for shootings they committed in the line of duty, even if those shootings are directly traceable to bad or illegal decisions they made. It should be clear why I don't agree with that.

What BS is this? Thats not what he was saying at all.....

There is a difference between a justifiable shooting of a guy who answered the door with a gun pointing at you and police beating a suspect to death or shooting an unarmed person.

[SUPREME1]

Let's not lose track of the fact that the cops were at the wrong address.



Guy had no reason to believe the cops would be the ones banging on his door, especially since you know, they were unannounced.

If I'm asleep at 1:30am and someone starts banging on my door, I'm gonna be startled and really jumpy. If those people don;t identify themselves as the police, then I am assuming it could potentially be in danger on the other side.

I would indeed open the door, cautiously, but who's to say the police didn't just push their way in once it had been opened? Do you ever watch police shows, the police don't necessarily go in slow and politely. They swarm in and dominate a room as a tactic. What if the guy cracked the door a bit, they force their way in... see a gun and shoot him. They did afterall think it was an attempted murderer... because they were at the wrong address.

Cops fault 100%.


Cops don't go to teh wron address, nothing goes down. I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt to the victim here. The cops proved they were incompetent to begin with, why would I assume they did everything else correct?

Cops have a culture of priotecting themselves above everything and anything. It's a pack mentality and they protect themselves after mistakes. No way I'm buying into what they have to say afterwards. The guy didn't shoot. They shot.

They fucked up from get go and only made things worse.



A couple things they could have done that would have made it less likeyl that anything goes wrong:


1. Go to the right address
2. Identify yourself

[commish]

Let's not lose track of the fact that the cops were at the wrong address. Guy had no reason to believe the cops would be the ones banging on his door, especially since you know, they were unannounced. If I'm asleep at 1:30am and someone starts banging on my door, I'm gonna be startled and really jumpy. If those people don;t identify themselves as the police, then I am assuming it could potentially be in danger on the other side. I would indeed open the door, cautiously, but who's to say the police didn't just push their way in once it had been opened? Do you ever watch police shows, the police don't necessarily go in slow and politely. They swarm in and dominate a room as a tactic. What if the guy cracked the door a bit, they force their way in... see a gun and shoot him. They did afterall think it was an attempted murderer... because they were at the wrong address. Cops fault 100%. Cops don't go to teh wron address, nothing goes down. I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt to the victim here. The cops proved they were incompetent to begin with, why would I assume they did everything else correct? Cops have a culture of priotecting themselves above everything and anything. It's a pack mentality and they protect themselves after mistakes. No way I'm buying into what they have to say afterwards. The guy didn't shoot. They shot. They fucked up from get go and only made things worse. A couple things they could have done that would have made it less likeyl that anything goes wrong: 1. Go to the right address 2. Identify yourself

So, it's okay that the victim was pointing his gun at the cops?

[Sqorgar]

I don't own a gun, nor do I want one, but if someone is thrashing on your door at 1:30am demanding that you open it, would you not find it prudent to answer it wielding your gun?

I would probably make some sort of effort to find out who was on the other side of the door. Perhaps look through a peephole or window, or even say, "Who is it?" through the door. I would also use that effort as a way of determining whether they, too, were armed.

Guns are more likely to result in shooting a family member, so if you have a gun, you have a responsibility to identify who you intend to shoot before brandishing your weapon, and to make sure that doing so will not escalate a situation. Guns are a responsibility that one should take deadly serious.

[Mudkips]

Me thinks answering the door with a gun pointed is a fair exhibit of probable cause. Who does that?

1: There is no evidence that the gun was pointed at the cop.
2: Probable cause of what? There has to be a specific crime that things plainly visible to an officer cause to seem probable!
3: Lots of people answer with a gun, bat, etc. when someone unannounced bangs on their door at 1:30 AM.

They aren't above the law and they aren't allowed to violate your rights, but the relationship isn't and shouldn't be "fair and equal" in the context you are responding to: using guns. That's insane.

Why not? Why is it insane? Cops have no more legal rights to guns than anyone else.

[LCGeek]

Cops: Announce yourself. Person who got shot: Don't answer the door pointing a gun.

Stupid meets stupid basically.

[ultron87]

Let's not lose track of the fact that the cops were at the wrong address.

They weren't really "at the wrong address".

Deputies thought they were confronting Jonathan Brown, a man accused of attempted murder. Brown was spotted at the Blueberry Hills Apartment complex and his motorcycle was parked across from Andrew Scott's front door.

They were searching for an accused criminal and had a tip that he was at the apartment complex. They naturally tried the door that his bike suggested he might be behind.

[BattleMonkey]

Let's not lose track of the fact that the cops were at the wrong address. Guy had no reason to believe the cops would be the ones banging on his door, especially since you know, they were unannounced. If I'm asleep at 1:30am and someone starts banging on my door, I'm gonna be startled and really jumpy. If those people don;t identify themselves as the police, then I am assuming it could potentially be in danger on the other side. I would indeed open the door, cautiously, but who's to say the police didn't just push their way in once it had been opened? Do you ever watch police shows, the police don't necessarily go in slow and politely. They swarm in and dominate a room as a tactic. What if the guy cracked the door a bit, they force their way in... see a gun and shoot him. They did afterall think it was an attempted murderer... because they were at the wrong address. Cops fault 100%. Cops don't go to teh wron address, nothing goes down. I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt to the victim here. The cops proved they were incompetent to begin with, why would I assume they did everything else correct? Cops have a culture of priotecting themselves above everything and anything. It's a pack mentality and they protect themselves after mistakes. No way I'm buying into what they have to say afterwards. The guy didn't shoot. They shot. They fucked up from get go and only made things worse. A couple things they could have done that would have made it less likeyl that anything goes wrong: 1. Go to the right address 2. Identify yourself

Yes you got a fact to start with and underlined. But everything else is assumptions based off not trusting anything cops say and stuff you see on TV shows. We can only go with what we actually know though which is also fairly vague.

[echoshifting]

Guy had no reason to believe the cops would be the ones banging on his door, especially since you know, they were unannounced.

You sure about that?

I mean, I have been in practically the same situation - police banging on the wrong address (mine) just before midnight without announcing themselves - and while it scared the crap out of me, police were the first possibility to enter my mind. Who else is it going to be? Do burglars knock?

[Wafflecakes]

So, it's okay that the victim was pointing his gun at the cops?

Hell. If you answer the door with a gun pointed at ANYONE it is bound to end badly eventually.

[starchild excalibur]

Cops should have definitely announced themselves, but if the guy was so afraid of them that he felt compelled to hold (or point) a gun at them, why the fuck didn't he ask who it was before opening the door? If someone announces themselves with a knock, why not answer that act with a simple "Who is it?" Castle doctrine or not, if you point a gun at a cop they're only going to act with the same chord of self-defense that you're trying to act with.

It's an unfortunate set of circumstances that could have been avoided with a little common sense on both sides.

[Kinyou]

So, it's okay that the victim was pointing his gun at the cops?

No, but he didn't know that they were cops, so you can't really blame him that much I suppose.

[Mammoth Jones]

Identify yourself when knocking on someone's door. Not everyone lives in a safe neighborhood where nothing bad ever happens ever. Some people have to deal with multiple break ins and have prepared themselves for it.

While I'd NEVER open my door to a stranger pointing a gun, I have grabbed my 12ga when someone was kicking more door at 3am.

Fail by the police. Identifying themselves would have prevented this entire encounter.

[commish]

No, but he didn't know that they were cops, so you can't really blame him that much I suppose.

So it's okay to open the door and point your gun at people, as long as they aren't cops? What?

[LaserBuddha]

1: There is no evidence that the gun was pointed at the cop. 2: Probable cause of what? There has to be a specific crime that things plainly visible to an officer cause to seem probable! 3: Lots of people answer with a gun, bat, etc. when someone unannounced bangs on their door at 1:30 AM.

There is some evidence, the testimony of the police officers. That isn't a lot, but it's a whole more than the ZERO evidence that he wasn't pointing it at them.

Why not? Why is it insane? Cops have no more legal rights to guns than anyone else.

What world do you live in where being a police officer carries no legal authority? What you're saying isn't just illogical, it's factually wrong.

[Wafflecakes]

Identify yourself when knocking on someone's door. Not everyone lives in a safe neighborhood where nothing bad ever happens ever. Some people have to deal with multiple break ins and have prepared themselves for it. While I'd NEVER open my door to a stranger pointing a gun, I have grabbed my 12ga when someone was kicking more door at 3am. Fail by the police. Identifying themselves would have prevented this entire encounter.

Ya meh. If someone cares who is at their door they should ask. Sure its polite to announce yourself without prompt but I don't see how its a big deal.

[SnakeswithLasers]

I would probably make some sort of effort to find out who was on the other side of the door. Perhaps look through a peephole or window, or even say, "Who is it?" through the door. I would also use that effort as a way of determining whether they, too, were armed. Guns are more likely to result in shooting a family member, so if you have a gun, you have a responsibility to identify who you intend to shoot before brandishing your weapon, and to make sure that doing so will not escalate a situation. Guns are a responsibility that one should take deadly serious.

Yes, I too agree that cops should take their wielding of firearms more seriously.

I just had a thought, maybe this guy owned a dog and the police were merely trying to shoot through him, to stop the dog from charging?

[Emerson]

I would probably make some sort of effort to find out who was on the other side of the door. Perhaps look through a peephole or window, or even say, "Who is it?" through the door. I would also use that effort as a way of determining whether they, too, were armed. Guns are more likely to result in shooting a family member, so if you have a gun, you have a responsibility to identify who you intend to shoot before brandishing your weapon, and to make sure that doing so will not escalate a situation. Guns are a responsibility that one should take deadly serious.

This.

I don't see why it's some question of extremes where the two options are not having a gun or opening your door with your gun pointed at a person's head. If you're startled in the middle of the night, peek out your window, use a peephole, ask who it is. Have the gun in your hand. But you don't swing the door open with the gun aimed at the knocker. The comparisons in this thread with a baseball bat or whatever are similar. You have the bat in your hand, but you don't open the door swinging the bat at whoever is standing there.

The cops absolutely should have announced themselves, no question. And it's always possible it's not true that the victim was pointing the gun at them. But for the purpose of argument I'm assuming it's the truth.

[LaserBuddha]

Ya meh. If someone cares who is at their door they should ask. Sure its polite to announce yourself without prompt but I don't see how its a big deal.

Yep, and if you're claiming to feel threatened or defending yourself then opening the door in the first place throws out any argument you could make to that effect.

[Stinkles]

Cops: Announce yourself. Person who got shot: Don't answer the door pointing a gun.

It's 1:30am, you live ina bad neighborhood in a building that actually has felons living in it, you hear noises of more than one person at your door, then they pound on it. How do you answer the door?

[ultron87]

It's 1:30am, you live ina bad neighborhood in a building that actually has felons living in it, you hear noises of more than one person at your door, then they pound on it. How do you answer the door?

Well I certainly don't open it.

[LaserBuddha]

It's 1:30am, you live ina bad neighborhood in a building that actually has felons living in it, you hear noises of more than one person at your door, then they pound on it. How do you answer the door?

If you feel threatened enough to even pick up a gun, then you don't answer the door at all. Not at least without trying to find out who is there. You certainly under no circumstances point a gun at someone who is outside of your fucking home.

[Beerman462]

Deputies thought they were confronting Jonathan Brown, a man accused of attempted murder. Brown was spotted at the Blueberry Hills Apartment complex and his motorcycle was parked across from Andrew Scott's front door.

That's why they knocked on his door.

There was a video attached to the article Ryan Perry is a neighbor.

In the video you can see the appartmens are single story townhouse style with a window and a light right next to the door. Even if the light was out what happened to knock knock..who's there. We all learned this as kids.

The cops were looking for an attempted murder suspect are 1:30 in the morning not serving a warrent that leads me to believe that it was probably a recent crime.

[timetokill]

So it's okay to open the door and point your gun at people, as long as they aren't cops? What?

If you're pounding on people's doors in the early morning hours then you have to expect you're going to have a weapon shown frequently enough.

You know that... just holding a gun doesn't kill anyone, right?

[ultron87]

If you're pounding on people's doors in the early morning hours then you have to expect you're going to have a weapon shown frequently enough. You know that... just holding a gun doesn't kill anyone, right?

You know that there is no way to tell whether someone pointing a gun at you isn't going to immediately shoot you, right?

[Kinyou]

So it's okay to open the door and point your gun at people, as long as they aren't cops? What?

Is pointing the gun at them an overreaction? Yeah, probably. But I assume he was scared and had no reason to assume that there were nice guys standing behind that door. I can't really blame someone for a reaction like that.

[abuC]

If there's no video I don't believe a word police say when it comes to "He pointed a gun at us".

[LaserBuddha]

You know that there is no way to tell whether someone pointing a gun at you isn't going to immediately shoot you, right?

Don't bother. Just challenge them to explain what the officers should have done when they knock on a door and someone opens it and points a gun at them. Then sit back and enjoy the deafening silence since they have nothing.

Is pointing the gun at them an overreaction? Yeah, probably. But I assume he was scared and had no reason to assume that there were nice guys standing behind that door. I can't really blame someone for a reaction like that.

You should. No one that stupid and reckless should own a firearm. This "fear" b.s. excuse goes out the window as soon as we get to the point where he opens the door without even trying to find out who is on the other side of it.

[SnakeswithLasers]

What if the guy asked, "Who is it?" and the cops just demanded that he open the door?

[BattleMonkey]

It's 1:30am, you live ina bad neighborhood in a building that actually has felons living in it, you hear noises of more than one person at your door, then they pound on it. How do you answer the door?

You don't open it? I had a person couple months ago knocking at my door in 9:30 at night and I live in a nice neighborhood, but I didn't know him and it was late, so yea I didn't open that door. If I live in a bad neighborhood? If someone meant me harm, opening the door to them is pretty stupid even if you have a weapon.

What if the guy asked, "Who is it?" and the cops just demanded that he open the door?

Then he shouldn't open the door? Call 911 if you are afraid. If they try to bust in and still didn't announce themselves? Yea shoot em.

[pigeon]

Did you read? I said that whether or not they should face consequences has to do with the legality/policy about knocking without shouting your identity.

Ah, I misunderstood your position. Sorry.

Which is exactly what you're saying, unless I guess it's a forgone conclusion that knocking in such a way is considered a bad or illegal choice?

They knocked on the door because they saw Brown's motorcycle parked near the apartment. The charge is attempted murder, but as part of a fistfight, where the two men charged inflicted apparently no serious injuries and ran off when a bystander yelled. This isn't to forgive them, but they're clearly not the kind of hardened criminals that will respond to the police announcing themselves by shooting through the door or destroying evidence or whatever, and the police knew that. Brown, the guy they were actually after, wasn't a drug lord, he was just an asshole. He wasn't even armed! There's no reason they shouldn't have identified themselves right away, and they should know that doing so as quickly and loudly as possible reduces the chance that innocents will be injured or killed -- this isn't exactly a new idea. I don't personally think they should be let off the hook too easily.

Ya meh. If someone cares who is at their door they should ask. Sure its polite to announce yourself without prompt but I don't see how its a big deal.

Well, it does happen to be the law. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knock-and-announce

[commish]

If you're pounding on people's doors in the early morning hours then you have to expect you're going to have a weapon shown frequently enough. You know that... just holding a gun doesn't kill anyone, right?

He was pointing it at them (if we believe the cops). I guess pointing it at them doesn't kill anyone, either. Cops should have just stood there until he started shooting them, I guess.

[rkn]

"Now here's the story guys, he was pointing the gun at us."

[Htown]

So, it's okay that the victim was pointing his gun at the cops?

And how was he supposed to know they were cops?

[Beerman462]

What if the guy asked, "Who is it?" and the cops just demanded that he open the door?

I'm guessing his neighbor would have mentioned that.

[Sqorgar]

What if the guy asked, "Who is it?" and the cops just demanded that he open the door?

What if the guy was a drug dealer, knew that they were cops, and just didn't know that they weren't actually after him (this time)?

What if is a fun game. Let's play some more.