[rkn]

You know, I have been thinking about how this probably went down and it's just a sad story all around. If it was me, I would have had the gun in my hand, but down at my side and cracked the door open to see who it was so that initially they wouldn't even know I had it. If/When he did that, the police probably forced the door open violently knocking him to the ground at which point he was probably very confused and disoriented. He may have pointed the gun at them at that point, which led to them opening fire......

Dude, the cops said he opened the door with the gun pointed at them. Are you doubting that fact*. *hearsay

[Forsaken82]

The bottom line is your a murderer and a piece of shit.

So, I have a gun pointed at you... You as the cop believe me to be wanted for attempted murder. You aren't going to pull the trigger to defend yourself from who you believe to be wanted for attempted murder?

Don't get me wrong... this is a total wrong place wrong time. I feel sorry for the guy who got killed, especially his family, but it is easy to talk shit about these cops given whats been released, but how do you know, in the heat of the moment, for fear of your life, you wouldn't have done the same thing.

I don't care who you are... if you point a gun at me, self preservation is going to kick in. I am going to do WHATEVER it takes to stay alive.

[Beerman462]

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...eriff-s-office

According to the Lake County Sheriff's Office, the Leesburg Police department requested assistance early this morning in tracking down a suspect in an attempted murder. The suspect and another man allegedly severely beat a man, possibly with a cinder block.

Deputies were led to Scott's door at the Blueberry Hill II apartment complex off County Road 44 after spotting a nearby motorcycle that one of the suspects was believed to have used to escape from the scene of the beating. Deputies knocked on the nearest door, but did not announce their presence because they felt it would have been more "tactically advantageous," sheriff's spokesman Lt. John Herrell said. Herrell said deputies showed up to the apartment in marked patrol cars but their sirens were not activated. He did not provide additional details — such as whether the area outside the apartment was lighted at the time of the shooting or whether deputies had their weapons drawn when they knocked — because the incident is under investigation by the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, as is standard with deputy-involved shootings

[Zeke]

To all the people yelling "look out the peep hole!" Let me share a story with you. I had a family member who had the cops show up at his door at night one time. Banged on the door, didn't announce who they were even after being asked "who is it?" Looked out the peep hole to see who it was, cops covered the peep hole. After he cracked the door to see who it was one cop wedged his foot in the door so he couldn't close it. Asked for his ID he turns around to get his wallet on the the table and as soon as his back was turned both cops busted thro and took him to the ground. Was placed under arrest, was never read his rights and cops never had a warrant. In the end the judge threw the case out because the cops fucked up. The reason they said they were there was because of a noise compliant.

[SUPREME1]

To all the people yelling "look out the peep hole!" Let me share a story with you. I had a family member who had the cops show up at his door at night one time. Banged on the door, didn't announce who they were even after being asked "who is it?" Looked out the peep hole to see who it was, cops covered the peep hole. After he cracked the door to see who it was one cop wedged his foot in the door so he couldn't close it. Asked for his ID he turns around to get his wallet on the the table and as soon as his back was turned both cops busted thro and took him to the ground. Was placed under arrest, was never read his rights and cops never had a warrant. In the end the judge threw the case out because the cops fucked up. The reason they said they were there was because of a noise compliant.

That doesnt matter in fantasyland where the cops are all good and they can do no wrong.

[Beerman462]

To all the people yelling "look out the peep hole!" Let me share a story with you. I had a family member who had the cops show up at his door at night one time. Banged on the door, didn't announce who they were even after being asked "who is it?" Looked out the peep hole to see who it was, cops covered the peep hole. After he cracked the door to see who it was one cop wedged his foot in the door so he couldn't close it. Asked for his ID he turns around to get his wallet on the the table and as soon as his back was turned both cops busted thro and took him to the ground. Was placed under arrest, was never read his rights and cops never had a warrant. In the end the judge threw the case out because the cops fucked up. The reason they said they were there was because of a noise compliant.

One time a cop knocked my door. I looked out the peephole and saw it was a cop. When answered the door he asked if I knew my garage was open. I said no and thanked him for the heads up.
Also this guys apartment had a window right by the door as well as a light. They were in uniform and marked patrol cars parked out front. This guy willingly answered the door blindly with a gun in his hand.

[Beerman462]

That doesnt matter in fantasyland where the cops are all good and they can do no wrong.

Cops do plenty wrong. The BART shooting, the beating to death of a homeless man, how the Treyvon Martin case was handled. Could they have handled this better? Yes. Is answering your door with a gun and not identifying who is there when the means are available make you stupid? Yes.

[Newline]

Cops: Announce yourself. Person who got shot: Don't answer the door pointing a gun.

Pretty decent summary of what and what not to do.

[The Adder]

Why not try to shoot the guy in the leg(s) or in the arm(s)? He'd probably drop the gun and would at least have a better chance of surviving.

Because as a cop you're trained not to fire unless you intend to kill. And if you intend to kill you won't be aiming to wound.

[Alligatorjandro]

He should have never had a gun pointed because the cops should have never knocked.

[Beerman462]

He should have never had a gun pointed because the cops should have never knocked.

He should have lived somewhere else. Hyperbole

Cops: Hey there's the motorcycle the suspect was riding. Lets knock on the door and see if he's there. Should we yell its the police? No he can look out the window we don't want to disturb his neighbors.

Scott: Somones banging on my door at 2am. I better get my gun and answer the door before finding out who it is.

[SpectreFire]

This whole mess would've been avoided if the guy just looked through his goddamn peephole.

[IISANDERII]

Not that I expect anything to come of it, but there should still be an investigation. The fact is we don't know exactly what happened but right about now the cops are circling the wagons around the officers involved, right or wrong. The officer that killed my sister was voted by his precinct as cop of the year. Talk about a kick in the gut...

Holy FS.

One day somebody's going to go on a cop killing rampage and it won't be some sick psycho. It'll just be somebody who snapped because of the abuses of a corrupt, immoral and depraved system that serves itself first and justice last.

[Dark Octave]

If he was smart he would have answered the door with the gun hidden behind his back.

Sounds like a rough area.

[Septimius]

A country where you give everyone the right to openly carry guns, and the police the right to kill people who touch the guns they rightfully carry, fucked up shit like this is bound to happen. I live in a country where neither cops nor people are allowed to carry guns, and virtually no one gets killed here. Strange stuff.

[The Technomancer]

Cops: Announce yourself. Person who got shot: Don't answer the door pointing a gun.

Basically. Shitty situation all around.

[alphaNoid]

A country where you give everyone the right to openly carry guns, and the police the right to kill people who touch the guns they rightfully carry, fucked up shit like this is bound to happen. I live in a country where neither cops nor people are allowed to carry guns, and virtually no one gets killed here. Strange stuff.

Nobody dies in your country?

[GungHo]

I don't own a gun, nor do I want one, but if someone is thrashing on your door at 1:30am demanding that you open it, would you not find it prudent to answer it wielding your gun?

I'm pretty sure I'd say "identify yourself/who are you" before I went anywhere near the door. And, whether their answer was "cops", "landshark", "pizza", or "crazy crack addict", I'd probably say "I am armed" and either "I'm opening the door slowly, I am not pointing the gun at the door" or "call my phone at ###-###-#### and lets talk".

I don't think that I'd just toss open the door and say "IT'S TIME TO GUNGHO" in any case. Honestly, I'd have let them keep knocking until their knuckles bled if they weren't going to identify themselves, and then call 911 if they started kicking.

The only consequences in question are in regard to them not announcing themselves. That's really gonna hinge on what their policies are. I don't know that there is a logical basis for requiring an officer to shout their identity when knocking, as opposed to when the person answers the door or asks who is there. What exactly is the problem with that, anyway? An officer not shouting their identity only presents a danger if the person in the home reacts in an irrational/illegal way. I really think it's a moot point though, because it does not justify pointing a gun at them either way.

Yeah, fuck that.

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

They don't have a reason to barge into my house with all that shit hanging off their rifle, a balaclava covering their face, and a piece of tape over their badge number and expect me to just comply because they're on Power Trip #77. They're officers of the law, not soldiers.

Furthermore, their safety isn't more important than mine. Actually, as a "civilian" (another term that pisses me off), my safety is what they're supposed to be concerned about. What about coming into my house in a civilized manner so as not to freak me the fuck out considering they're guests.

[Az987]

What if he answered the door holding a pitbull?

[Kinyou]

What if he answered the door holding a pitbull?

Everyone gets mauled to death, even the pitbull.

[GungHo]

Dale?

[SnakeswithLasers]

Title is misleading. I thought this was another fumbling police story. Fucker had a gun in his hand.

In an unquestionably tragic situation where an innocent person is killed in their own home by police under circumstances that are best described as ambiguous and debatable (i.e. blame could be reasonably argued to fall on either or both parties), you call him a 'fucker.'

[The Technomancer]

I'm pretty sure I'd say "identify yourself/who are you" before I went anywhere near the door. And, whether their answer was "cops", "landshark", "pizza", or "crazy crack addict", I'd probably say "I am armed" and either "I'm opening the door slowly, I am not pointing the gun at the door" or "call my phone at ###-###-#### and lets talk".

This. In almost all threads involving guns and what people perceive as "defense" it seems like no-one is particularly interested in actually playing it safe by doing everything possible to minimize risk.

[pigeon]

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...eriff-s-office

Well, that's interesting.

In the arrest affidavit for Brown and Rodriguez, Leesburg police said they went to 713 Marietta St. on a battery-in-progress call at 12:51 a.m. Sunday, where a witness told police he saw two subjects on top of another individual, repeatedly striking him. The witness told Leesburg police that he observed Brown holding the victim down and Rodriguez had picked up a cinder block and raised it over the victim's head, as if he were going to hit the victim. The witness called out the to victim, asking if he needed help. Brown and Rodriguez reportedly saw the witness, ran to their vehicles, and fled. Police department officials told patrol units the suspects' direction of travel over the main police radio channel. The victim told police he was walking up the steps of his home when he heard someone yell his name. He noticed a Chevy Silverado and motorcycle parked on the street. Brown and Rodriguez had walked towards him, asked about his girlfriend, and then Brown reportedly punched the victim and they all began to fight. Police officials said because of the severity of the victim's injuries of lacerations, swelling of both eyes and abrasions, Brown was charged with felony battery.

http://www.dailycommercial.com/News/...fficershooting

He was charged with attempted murder because it looked like he might hit the guy with a cinder block. He didn't actually do it, and when a witness -- not a cop, just a bystander -- called out, he fled. He didn't actually have a weapon during the event that led to the attempted murder charge. Tactically advantageous my ass. There's no reason to assume that this guy was a threat, and in fact, he wasn't -- they arrested him next door "without incident." The circumstances did not justify their "tactical" behavior.

[Wazzim]

"When we knocked on the door, the door opened and the occupant of that apartment was pointing a gun at deputies and that's when we opened fire and killed him," Lt. John Herrell said.

I'm not a police officer but I'm pretty sure that this is not how it is supposed to be done.

[Flo_Evans]

Gotta call bullshit on these cops story.

Unless the guy was a total spaz, he would of won the shootout if he had his gun drawn on them.

There is no way you can shoot someone before they shoot you with a gun already drawn on you.

Really I don't see how a right-handed person can smoothly open a door while keeping a gun pointed at people outside. If he opened the door with his left hand the door would of obscured the gun in his right unless he flung it open... highly unlikely if you feel the need to answer the door with a gun in hand.

[TheChewyWaffles]

Furthermore, one has no reason to even believe the police when they say he was pointing the gun at them.

Very good point, actually. Were there any witnesses? (besides the dead dude and the policeman, of course). Someone get Dexter to analyze the blood splatters!

[Dude Abides]

Cops should be required to knock and announce in all situations where a warrant would be required for a search.

If instead of a cop the shooter were just a guy in a concealed carry state I wonder if he'd be guilty of a crime - I.e. are you justified shooting someone who answers the door pointing a gun at you. My guess is he'd at least be charged.

[Ravensmash]

Title is misleading. I thought this was another fumbling police story. Fucker had a gun in his hand. Or maybe they should've tazed him or swung their buh-tons.

'Fucker'? He was holding his legally owned weapon in response to someone banging on his door at 1:30am.

I live in a country where guns are banned, but I don't think many people would respond to the situation differently - I'd be terrified if someone started knocking and definitely take means to defend myself against any threat.

Sounds like a terrible accident, but an awful mistake on behalf of the police - especially not making themselves known.

[faceless007]

Question: are police required to announce who they are when knocking? (Probably depends on the jurisdiction.)

If not, why the fuck would a citizen be expected to open the door just because someone's knocking?

[Ravensmash]

Officers should definitely have taken more precaution considering their assumption has resulted in an innocent guy being shot dead.

I wonder if they'll face disciplinary measures? (No idea how these things work) If not for the shooting, then for the decision to assume a suspect was indoors based on such flimsy evidence.

[DiscoJer]

Question: are police required to announce who they are when knocking? (Probably depends on the jurisdiction.) If not, why the fuck would a citizen be expected to open the door just because someone's knocking?

They're not even required to knock any more a lot of the time. No-knock raids which have resulted in quite a bit of carnage. They need a warrant for that, but a lot of time they go to the wrong address

[Aberrant]

Are there high levels of crime in Florida? Specifically where this happened?

In the last 6 months the police have come to my door late at night, later than 10pm, three times (there have been a few break ins / vandalisms in the neightbourhood and were doing door to door knocks). They damn near knock the door down but never announce that they are the police until I ask who it is.

In the US are the police suppose to announce that they are the police immediately after they knock? Or only if they are there to make an arrest?


Regardless of the official laws I feel like the cops fucked up here.