[Woorloog]

While i can understand people loving his books and the universe he created with the lotr saga i will never understand why some people try so hard to elevate Tolkien books to anything more than well done fantasy stuff. Well, i can understand his son saying that, but Jackson's adaptations are to cinema exactly what tolkien books are to literature. Jackson may not be Kieślowski, but Tolkien certainly isn't fucking Tolstoj, quit trying to make his books sound deeper than they really are.

Me, i think Tolkien's greatest achievement is how detailled his world is. As far as worldbuilding goes, he is the master.

Oddly, only thing getting close is, in my opinion, the Elder Scrolls. At least in feeling real, there is probably fiction that has more worldbuilding but i cannot say any others that have the feel Tolkien's world and the Elder Scrolls series have.

[Deified Data]

He's not allowed to say he approves. He'll be in theaters for The Hobbit like the rest of us.

[bengraven]

He's not allowed to say he approves. He'll be in theaters for The Hobbit like the rest of us.

Uh...

[krioto]

I've never seen so many stupid opinions on both the LOTR and Christopher Tolkien gathered in the one place before.

I agree with him - the movies whilst watchable, have so much unnecessary hollywood-style crap in them

[mantidor]

Haha, Tolkien Jr trying to pass off his Dad's stuff as better than it is Lord of the Rings was the shitty action movie of early 20th century literature Real Talk: In Search of Lost Time >> Lord of the Rings The Sound and the Fury >> Lord of the Rings Hell, Don Quixote >> Lord of the Rings /controversialliteraryopinions

How is that controversial? Don Quixote is actually an entertaining work of literature, and is the more impressive since is almost 500 years old.

I know that Tolkien's work is very loved by many people, and I guess there are some good things about it, but is in no way the top of literature, as some people treat them. When someone tells me that the best books they've ever read are Tolkiens books, I can't help but wonder that they really haven't read that many books in their lives. Are people really putting this work at the level of Wilde, Poe, Camus? I mean, really? how can you read any book from any of those authors and go back to Tolkien an not get bored to death?

this may be a revolutionary idea, but what if it i might be possible to enjoy both the books and movies? holy fuck i think i'm onto something here

Or maybe they are both bad? The movies have an amazing production, the thing is beautiful to look and listen to, but beyond that the movies feel as much of a chore as the books.

I can look at this over and over though, it just gives me goosebumps. But you know, I just can't care at all about what happens afterwards. At least until there's another battle.

[Valhelm]

Did the movie need Liv Tyler or her character? Why was the focus on small people doing small things scrapped for LOL Hero's journey? Elves and Helm's Deep? Why? Wizard duel. Warg Battle.

Actually, the expansion of Arwen was the most logically change. Lord of the Rings has so, so few female players that Liv Tyler's character was quite well-needed. The inclusion of a female lead and a love interest for Aragorn allowed for the more development of his characters, new conflict, and a somewhat more diverse cast.

The other four were all needed because Peter Jackson was making a film. In the two-hour format, more action is generally needed for the pacing. I really doubt the audience would care for a conversation between Pippin and a boy from Gondor, or want to hear a soliloquy by a member of the Rohirrim of what he saw in the White Mountains. The wizard duel was really stupid, yeah, and one of the lowest points of the series, and the warg battle added little in terms of plot, but both still bettered the pacing of their respective films and the trilogy overall.

Sometimes it makes sense for changes to be made in an adaption, in the same way that direct, word-by-word translations are usually inferior to more pragmatic localizations.

[worldrevolution]

This thread is fuckin weird.. Next thing people will say the Game of Thrones show is better than the books.. lol.

Elves coming to Helm's Deep.. I mean wtf..

[The Real Abed]

It's a terrible thing that the movies helped ignite interest in the books within people that never would have bothered to read them in the first place. Jackson is such a dick.

If anything seeing the movies has made me want to read the books.

[Help Me!]

Paging China Mieville

LOL. I wish.

[Woorloog]

This thread is fuckin weird.. Next thing people will say the Game of Thrones show is better than the books.. lol.

I actually do say that.

Oh i like the books but i find the show somehow more interesting.
But that might be because i'm utterly bored on GRRM slow pace and 5th book being... well, boring. Nothing happens.

I normally prefer reading over watching TV/films, LOTR films and Game of Thrones are the only exceptions i can think of. Oh and Star Wars.

[danwarb]

That cheap TV movie slow-motion effect put me off the LoTR. The movies didn't look great. The story seemed quite daft too, taking the movies on their own.

[Combichristoffersen]

If anything seeing the movies has made me want to read the books.

You really should. I love the movies, they're among my all-time fave movies (well, at least Fellowship and RotK are), but they are undeniably very simplified compared to the book, as a 1:1 movie adaption of the book would be pretty much unfilmable. Give The Hobbit a go too!

[Jake Tower]

I have deep respect for C. R. Tolkien.

However, he is wholly wrong about the Jackson's film versions. I'm saddened that the Tolkien Estate (aside from a black sheep grandson, IIRC) is so... 'close-minded' about adaptations of The Professor's works.

["God's Beard!"]

Still worse than Game of Thrones.

[Freshmaker]

Jackson may not be Kieślowski, but Tolkien certainly isn't fucking Tolstoj, quit trying to make his books sound deeper than they really are.

Meh. You're trying too hard. 1/10

Actually, the expansion of Arwen was the most logically change. Lord of the Rings has so, so few female players that Liv Tyler's character was quite well-needed. The inclusion of a female lead and a love interest for Aragorn allowed for the more development of his characters, new conflict, and a somewhat more diverse cast.

He wasn't supposed to be the focus.

The other four were all needed because Peter Jackson was making a film. In the two-hour format, more action is generally needed for the pacing. I really doubt the audience would care for a conversation between Pippin and a boy from Gondor, or want to hear a soliloquy by a member of the Rohirrim of what he saw in the White Mountains.

I don't recall asking for that. Developing Gimili and Legolas' friendship would've been nice however. How they developed respect for the other's culture and so on.

The wizard duel was really stupid, yeah, and one of the lowest points of the series, and the warg battle added little in terms of plot, but both still bettered the pacing of their respective films and the trilogy overall.

They bloated the movies and didn't add anything useful. I'd rather see the barrow wight fight than either of those messes. Just have Strider step in instead of Bombadil.

Also could've saved a ton of time if they stopped cutting to the bowels of Isengard every few minutes. Oh look annoying shots featuring snarling monsters that are completely pointless since they're all going to be drowned. Yup. Good call PJ! Cram a few more of those in!

Sometimes it makes sense for changes to be made in an adaption, in the same way that direct, word-by-word translations are usually inferior to more pragmatic localizations.

Stop pretending that Jackson's choices made any kind of sense.

[Jake Tower]

I hope somewhere the son of Lloyd Alexander is like "fuck off wheres my movie?"

The Prydain Chronicles are among my all-time favorites.

For a while, any video game that allowed you to name the Hero and Heroine (love interest), I'd use Taran and Eilonwy. :D

They are the better books afterall

*harp string breaks*

[CorvoSol]

This thread is fuckin weird.. Next thing people will say the Game of Thrones show is better than the books.. lol. Elves coming to Helm's Deep.. I mean wtf..

Eh, I didn't mind the Elves showing up. The Elves in LOTR come off as real jerks, who were just as deceived by Sauron as men, but only too happy to dump the whole Sauron problem on man as they flee middle Earth.

If anything seeing the movies has made me want to read the books.

I think that was his point.

For myself, I really loved the films. Whether I think they're better than the books or not I don't know, but I liked them. You can't take everything that was in those books and just put it on a screen and expect it to work. As film adaptations go, they were very, very good I felt.

Having rewatched them this month with a friend in anticipation of The Hobbit, I can honestly say I hope that someone decides to make The Silmarillion, too. Just so I can have more Tolkien goodness.

I won't go that far, but the Prydain Chronicles are among my all-time favorites. For a while, any video game that allowed you to name the Hero and Heroine (love interest), I'd use Taran and Eilonwy. :D

I would give all my money right now to have someone make a good movie series about the Prydain Chronicles. Those books were the fantasy gateway of my childhood. Like, LOTR, Prydain, and Zelda. Every camping trip I would be inventing adventures because of those things.

[Imbarkus]

Whole lotta Tolkien goin' on here, not enuff Walken.

[UrokeJoe]

The Hobbit got me reading, now I'm just waiting for the Moorcock movies.

[Jake Tower]

Given The Silmarillion to world, something his father desperately wanted but failed to so before he died. He's given people the chance to examine his father's work in an exhaustive manner via The History of Middle-earth series which Tolkien scholars such as myself are greatly thankful for. The Unfinished Tales as well and The Lost Tales via the History series. This work would be rotting away somewhere, but for Christopher's efforts.

Don't forget The Children of Húrin

[Combichristoffersen]

Having rewatched them this month with a friend in anticipation of The Hobbit, I can honestly say I hope that someone decides to make The Silmarillion, too. Just so I can have more Tolkien goodness.

The only way I could see The Silmarillion being adapted would be as a TV series with a massive budget, as it is pretty much unadaptable as a movie, unless you only focus on, say, the story of Beren and Luthien. But I doubt the Tolkien Estate would ever sell the movie/TV rights to Silmarillion.

[bengraven]

The only way I could see The Silmarillion being adapted would be as a TV series with a massive budget, as it is pretty much unadaptable as a movie, unless you only focus on, say, the story of Beren and Luthien. But I doubt the Tolkien Estate would ever sell the movie/TV rights to Silmarillion.

They won't. They're comfortably wealthy and it's something close to their heart. Maybe after Chris and his wife passes.

[Combichristoffersen]

They won't. They're comfortably wealthy and it's something close to their heart. Maybe after Chris and his wife passes.

Yeah, if they ever sell the rights, it won't be until after Christopher and Baillie have passed away. I don't know how the other family members in the Tolkien Estate think of the movie adaptions though, if they would be more willing to sell the rights.

[Woorloog]

They won't. They're comfortably wealthy and it's something close to their heart. Maybe after Chris and his wife passes.

Afterwards: HBO TV series.

[bengraven]

Yeah, if they ever sell the rights, it won't be until after Christopher and Baillie have passed away. I don't know how the other family members in the Tolkien Estate think of the movie adaptions though, if they would be more willing to sell the rights.

Well, Simon liked the films. Then again, he's estranged from his dad. One of the other grandsons (or great-grandons) appeared in the films.

That said, I'm interested in what his surviving daughter feels.

[Jake Tower]

Mieville has major issues with Tolkien and what he feels is the damaging influence of his fantasy, and used to regularly rail against the themes and messages in the LOTR books. He's backed off a bit in recent years (partly because every time he'd appear at a convention, people would ask him to lambast Tolkien for kicks), but one of the major reasons his fiction is what it is is that he consciously strived to move it far away from Tolkienesque fantasy. Here's a quote from him: "Tolkien is the wen on the arse of fantasy literature. His oeuvre is massive and contagious - you can't ignore it, so don't even try. The best you can do is consciously try to lance the boil. And there's a lot to dislike - his cod-Wagnerian pomposity, his boys-own-adventure glorying in war, his small-minded and reactionary love for hierarchical status-quos, his belief in absolute morality that blurs moral and political complexity. Tolkien's clichés - elves 'n' dwarfs 'n' magic rings - have spread like viruses. He wrote that the function of fantasy was 'consolation', thereby making it an article of policy that a fantasy writer should mollycoddle the reader. That is a revolting idea, and one, thankfully, that plenty of fantasists have ignored. From the Surrealists through the pulps - via Mervyn Peake and Mikhael Bulgakov and Stefan Grabinski and Bruno Schulz and Michael Moorcock and M. John Harrison and I could go on - the best writers have used the fantastic aesthetic precisely to challenge, to alienate, to subvert and undermine expectations." - China Mieville

Modern fiction that doesn't try to 'challenge, to alienate, to subvert and undermine expectations' *is* what is different, rare, and valuable about Tolkien. But then again, The Lord of the Rings gained immense popularity in the 60s from radical hippies.

That's irony. :D

[Edmond Dantès]

They won't. They're comfortably wealthy and it's something close to their heart. Maybe after Chris and his wife passes.

The Silmarillion entering the public domain seems the most likely. Although, there is an issue of when, considering Christopher's input. Seventy five years after his death or his father's death?

Also, I'm pretty sure Christopher will make it clear in his will that under no circumstances are the rights to The Silmarillion or The Unfinished Tales to be sold.

[echothreealpha]

Silmarillion was a chore to read, and I just gave up halfway throughout the book.

The story IS great however. Actually had more fun reading the summaries in wikipedia than the book itself.

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

The Silmarillion entering the public domain seems the most likely. Although, there is an issue of when, considering Christopher's input. Seventy five years after his death or his father's? Also, I'm pretty sure Christopher will make it clear in his will that under no circumstances are the rights to The Silmarillion or The Unfinished Tales to be sold.

That could take a really really long time. When as the Silm published in the US?
http://copyright.cornell.edu/resources/publicdomain.cfm

Edit: Keep in mind EU law could be an issue. Lots of Sherlock Holmes stories were pd in the US for a decent amount of time before elsewhere. No one will make a movie with large markets with the books still copyrighted.

[bengraven]

The Silmarillion entering the public domain seems the most likely. Although, there is an issue of when, considering Christopher's input. Seventy five years after his death or his father's death? Also, I'm pretty sure Christopher will make it clear in his will that under no circumstances are the rights to The Silmarillion or The Unfinished Tales to be sold.

Probably his fault for not putting "JRR and Christopher Tolkien" on the books, considering how much work he put into them. But yeah, I would assume it would be John's, not Chris's, name that has the weight.

I think there's some swindling going on in the courts to delay/prevent books from going into the public domain, so I have a feeling we won't see it in our lifetimes...

Afterwards: HBO TV series.

I would be okay with that, though it's not necessary to be HBO.

[Combichristoffersen]

That could take a really really long time. When as the Silm published in the US? http://copyright.cornell.edu/resources/publicdomain.cfm

It was first published in 1977, so I'd imagine that would be the year it was first published in the US. Either way we'll all most likely be dead before the Silm ever goes pd.

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

It was first published in 1977, so I'd imagine that would be the year it was first published in the US.

So most likely this.

1964 through 1977
Published with notice
95 years after publication date

1978 to 1 March 1989
Created after 1977 and published with notice
70 years after the death of author. If a work of corporate authorship, 95 years from publication or 120 years from creation, whichever expires first

Fun fact LOTR was in the PD for awhile due to registration issues, GATT allowed the reregistration of many foreign works that by defect entered the PD.

[Edmond Dantès]

Silmarillion was a chore to read, and I just gave up halfway throughout the book. The story IS great however. Actually had more fun reading the summaries in wikipedia than the book itself.

Tolkien was aware of that criticism and he may have rewritten certain parts to make the archaic prose (not a criticism) more approachable if he had lived longer.

In an ideal world he would have completed The Silmarillion as a pentalogy expanding much of the narrative.

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Tolkien was aware of that criticism and he may have rewritten certain parts to make the archaic prose more approachable if he had lived longer. In an ideal world he would have completed The Silmarillion as a pentalogy expanding much of the narrative.

Perhaps he was in a Lovecraft mood when writing it. lol

Actually one of my favorite works is a testament to the world building Tolkein does, The Atlas of Middle Earth is such a great book to read and look through.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Atlas_of_Middle-earth

http://www.amazon.com/Atlas-Middle-E.../dp/0618126996

[Woorloog]

I would be okay with that, though it's not necessary to be HBO.

You're missing the joke here.
Imagine HBO version of Silmarillion. A lot of sex. Blood. Swearing. You know.

Seriously though, they probably could make a faithful version of it. I just doubt it. If they did it.

That said, Silmarillion would probably work best as a miniseries, if filmed.

[Combichristoffersen]

You're missing the joke here. Imagine HBO version of Silmarillion. A lot of sex. Blood. Swearing. You know. Seriously though, they probably could make a faithful version of it. I just doubt it. If they did it. That said, Silmarillion would probably work best as a miniseries, if filmed.

There's already sex and blood in the Silm, so all they'd need to add would be some cussing elves :p

[Vyer]

Because your argument disallows any criticism of an adaptation.

Why would you say that?

[Edmond Dantès]

You're missing the joke here. Imagine HBO version of Silmarillion. A lot of sex. Blood. Swearing. You know. Seriously though, they probably could make a faithful version of it. I just doubt it. If they did it. That said, Silmarillion would probably work best as a miniseries, if filmed.

I've said it before in The Hobbit OT that a film pentalogy could be the way to go if the rights ever end up in the hands of someone willing to make a film adaptation.

Five films, two specifically focusing on the most fleshed out stories from The Silmarillion; Of Beren and Luthien and The Children of Hurin. The others could focus on The Ruin of Beleriand and The Fall of Gondolin and the final days of the First Age and the War of Wrath where Melkor is finally defeated. The Ainulindalë, Valaquenta and the first three wars that Melkor single-handedly waged on the Valar could be told via a prologue.

The end of the pentalogy could give an allusion to Sauron's escape from judgement and lead into the Second Age and The Fall of Númenor as a new dualogy.

[JB1981]

Actually, the expansion of Arwen was the most logically change. Lord of the Rings has so, so few female players that Liv Tyler's character was quite well-needed. The inclusion of a female lead and a love interest for Aragorn allowed for the more development of his characters, new conflict, and a somewhat more diverse cast. The other four were all needed because Peter Jackson was making a film. In the two-hour format, more action is generally needed for the pacing. I really doubt the audience would care for a conversation between Pippin and a boy from Gondor, or want to hear a soliloquy by a member of the Rohirrim of what he saw in the White Mountains. The wizard duel was really stupid, yeah, and one of the lowest points of the series, and the warg battle added little in terms of plot, but both still bettered the pacing of their respective films and the trilogy overall. Sometimes it makes sense for changes to be made in an adaption, in the same way that direct, word-by-word translations are usually inferior to more pragmatic localizations.

Fuck that the wizard duel was awesome

[oneils]

Christopher Lee is probably a bigger Tolkien scholar than Christopher Tolkien and Lee considers the the movies to be worthy. I dare Christopher Tolkien to do better.

Huh? He is a bigger scholar? Where did you get that from?

[Combichristoffersen]

Huh? He is a bigger scholar? Where did you get that from?

Lee reads LotR at least once every year, and actually met Tolkien back in the day, but he's obviously nowhere near as much of a Tolkien scholar as the son of Tolkien who's lived and breathed his fathers works for nearly a century.

[Ruas]

what madness has taken hold of her?

[Freshmaker]

Fuck that the wizard duel was awesome

You're giving me a stroke...

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Huh? He is a bigger scholar? Where did you get that from?

Because he's Christopher Lee, he can be an expert in anything if he wants too. Lord of the Rings, fine. Dracula, fine. How to give a women a top notch orgasm, fine. Because he's Christoher Fucking Lee. The man is a freaking genius whose insanely cultivated and cultured. It's not if he's and expert, it's if he feels like being one! Hell even can even do opera!

[Combichristoffersen]

You're giving me a stroke...

Oh c'mon. The wizard duel (assuming you're talking about the one where Saruman goes all 'you spin me right round baby right round' on Gandalf) was awesome to look at. Sure, it was obviously nothing the characters in the book would've done, but it provided entertaining spectacle in a visual medium.

[RBelong2Us]

Im not a big fan of LotR but he comes off as a salty biatch.

He should be grateful for the amount of success and wealth that the books continued to achieve due to the movie.

[Byakuya769]

Yeah, I disagree. he acts as if LOTR was some philosophical classic, it was just a well done fantasy novel.

It's the lore of the series that's so great; so much care went into creating that world. The actual writing on the other hand? Ugh.

[Freshmaker]

Oh c'mon. The wizard duel (assuming you're talking about the one where Saruman goes all 'you spin me right round baby right round' on Gandalf) was awesome to look at. Sure, it was obviously nothing the characters in the book would've done, but it provided entertaining spectacle in a visual medium.

*hurk*

Ear breakdancing...

*dies*

[Combichristoffersen]

*hurk* Ear breakdancing... *dies*

At least it's not as bad as the movie adaption of From Hell. I mean, I like the movie for what it is, but it is a complete fucking hackjob compared to the original graphic novel. No wonder Alan Moore hates it.

Entertaining as in, "Hahahaha, this shit looks so horrible!!!!"????

Nah, entertaining as in 'fuck yeah, wizzads n' shit!'

If I were going to rage over changes in the movie adaption, the wizard breakdance scene would be pretty low on my list.

[Byakuya769]

Oh c'mon. The wizard duel (assuming you're talking about the one where Saruman goes all 'you spin me right round baby right round' on Gandalf) was awesome to look at. Sure, it was obviously nothing the characters in the book would've done, but it provided entertaining spectacle in a visual medium.

Entertaining as in, "Hahahaha, this shit looks so horrible!!!!"????