[dramatis]

Surprised it took almost 50 posts, but I second Star Ocean 3. I wasn't very good at the game myself, but if you master the basics, the combat in that game is easily one of the best if not the best action RPG system.

[chaosblade]

What's the best one of Ys games? I like good stories, if it helps :) thx

The Ys games aren't really something you play for story. It's all about the combat and crazy boss fights.

Between PSP and PC, you have the options of 1&2 (PSP), Oath in Felghana (PSP/Steam), Seven (PSP), and Origin (Steam). There's also the bad PSP port of Ark of Napishtim and the decent PS2 port, but it's probably going to get released on Steam later and that's the version to go for.

I'd recommend picking up Oath for PC, it's $5.09 for the next 6 and a half hours as part of the summer sale and is one of the best games in the series.

[Holy Order Sol]

Baten Kaitos (and Origins) ?? It's card based, not sure if that disqualifies it...

I don't see what would disqualify it and that was actually the example I had in mind upon entering the thread.

[Shiloa]

The Shadow Hearts series (not just Covenant) is absolutely the best JRPG system about. It's challenging in that there's a lot of skill involved in landing each hit (and it's not just an invisible calculator which determines it) and customising your judgment rings, playing risk vs reward on the type of attack and actually having status effects which affect your - the player's - ability.

[Parakeetman]

Try the Digital Devil Saga series.

[dragonlife]

The Last Remnant.

Baten Kaitos (and Origins) ?? It's card based, not sure if that disqualifies it...

Why would it being card-based disqualify it? A battle system is a battle system, and BKO happens to have the best one. I guess I could see why some people would find it challenging, though.

[SpinDasher]

And yet, once you figure it out it's extremely easy because there's basically one tactic that's completely broken in any fight.

Huh? Do tell.

[lightchris]

The Shadow Hearts series (not just Covenant) is absolutely the best JRPG system about. It's challenging in that there's a lot of skill involved in landing each hit (and it's not just an invisible calculator which determines it) and customising your judgment rings, playing risk vs reward on the type of attack and actually having status effects which affect your - the player's - ability.

I only played Covenant: I also think that the mechanics are quite interesting. But the game is just too easy for them to be actually meaningful, imo.
It's the same with The Last Story. Why couldn't they just add more difficulty settings..?

Personally I found the combat system of Persona 3 and 4 relatively strategic and challenging. FF13 is not bad either, despite all prophecies of doom.

[Z3M0G]

Xenosaga Episode II comes to mind. I remember playing it a lot at release but stopping for some reason because I could still not grasp the complicated battle system. I tried to play my save again a few weeks ago and the first random battle wiped my party as I totally forgot what to do, hard battle system is hard. O.o"

I was going to mention Xenosaga II as well. I had mastered the battle system so well that I could cake-walk the game with zero grinding. It was incredibly satisfying, but yes quite difficult to grasp.

MOMO was your primary damage dealer, hands down. Everyone else was just to break the enemy's defenses so she could do her thing. Just boost her until everyone is ready.

A bit repetitive, but so satisfying when you do massive amounts of damage.

[chaosblade]

Huh? Do tell.

Here's a MSPaint image from a thread about a year ago that sums it up.



And after the first tri-attack it's easy to set yourself up for another one using the same basic tactic since the characters are in a triangle formation.

[toddhunter]

Huh? Do tell.

Run towards strong enemy with machine gunner. Jump so you don't run into anything.

Run with hand gunner, jumping as well. At least all the hard enemies will be dead.

If not, run with final character, execute tri-attack.

If you need to repeat, do so.

Works for every single fight in the game if you even half upgrade your guns.

[Chunky]

gl hf dd.

People have likely already responded, but come on man this aint no jrpg.

[toddhunter]

Btw last remnant on steam for $3.74?

http://www.greenmangaming.com/s/au/e.../last-remnant/

[Ferrio]

Breath of fire V Dragon Quarter is what you want. Great game, great combat, very unique mechanics not seen in any other game and is challenging. Damn shame another wasn't made.

[Schlomo]

Breath of fire V Dragon Quarter is what you want. Great game, great combat, very unique mechanics not seen in any other game and is challenging. Damn shame another wasn't made.

This. Tactical combat plus limited saves made it almost feel like survival horror at times. Definitely the most tense/exciting RPG I have ever played.

[dragonlife]

Btw last remnant on steam for $3.74? http://www.greenmangaming.com/s/au/e.../last-remnant/

Yup. Everyone should get this.

[highluxury]

Resonance of Fate is so complicated most people just give up.

But once you get "it", its pretty cool.

I have to get back to it once I get a new PS3... I may have not save cloud'd the game :(. Possibly have to start from scratch. And I got through some tough battles and cleared most of the arena ranks.

Now, THAT*'s challenging. Edit: *THAT= Resonance of Fate :3

The gun customization system is so whack in an awesome way. Being able to add so many pieces to a gun is crazy. Them crazy combos are a joy to watch.

[MrTeachwell]

Yup. Everyone should get this.

Hehe came in here to say Last Remnant and link everyone to the insane price on GMG, but you beat me to it. Last Remnant's battle mechanic is interesting and takes a little while to learn the ins and outs but really quite fun when you get the hang of it.

[Jawmuncher]

You shouldn't be grinding in Persona 3. Anyway, Unlimited Saga.

I never had to grind, but then again I did play on easy.
Since I was really only there for the story anyway.

[Man-is-Obsolete]

You guys should check out Knights in the Nightmare. It's on sale now for $7.50 on PSN. It is a pretty complicated and sometimes very challenging combat system. It's basically a cross between a SRPG and a shmup, and oh yeah every turn is timed and you have limited turns. all attacks charge up and use time and every hit you take you lose time.

[Myriadis]

Sometimes, just doing a regular attack in Resonance of Fate turned out to be better than all the hero action and tri-attack stuff. And tri-attacks really aren't always the best option, given that the enemy may be at a completely different place plus there's still the risk to get damaged enough to lose all your bezels while doing this setup, which makes it impossible to do a tri-attack.

And I second Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter. Absolutely strategic and also really hard.

[someguyinahat]

Bought Ys Oath in Felgana and Origin on Steam. Just started playing Origin. I enjoy games but am by no means "good" at them. There's nothing more humbling than knowing exactly what to do, knowing what the pattern is, and not being able to pull it off...knowing it's all on you. Jumping up the Beast's arms when it's stunned to attack its weak point was just one of those things that I knew how to do, but took me several tries to actually do it in a timely enough fashion to take full advantage.

[Orayn]

Dear thread,

Thank you for the heads-up about The Last Remnant being $3.74 on GMG. Bought.

-Orayn

[Chunky]

I think I'll actually go for Earthbound. The battle system's about as traditional as you can get, but I always felt like I was being challenged; having to get myself the best equipment, constantly checking my HP, desperately hoping a healing item would go through before the rest of my life rolled off.
Just a really fun, fast battle system that rarely gets tedious, as they tend to do (weakling enemies getting knocked out before the battle even starts helps too).
And the enemies and music are consistently excellent and varied, definitely helps avoid tedium.

[FuttBuck]

Resonance of Fate is so complicated most people just give up.

This plus the fact that it can get brutally hard. I got pretty far then just got disinterested in it, it's a fantastic game though.

[TheExodu5]

I'd say Star Ocean 3 could qualify. I can't recall exactly how much of a skill ceiling there is in the game, but I do remember you can kill the strongest post game bosses with incredibly weak equipment (in fact, there were achievements to do so).

[Khold]

The actual in-battle mechanics of The Last Remnant aren't complex, but the class changing (which affects which arts show up more often) and the union buffs (putting certain races/classes in certain unions to get bonuses) can be quite confusing.

[raven777]

The problem with Resonance of Fate was that the explanation for combat was non-existence unless you go learn in tutorial at Colosseum. It has that initial learning curve.

For actual controls, I would say Star Ocean and Tales series require some concentration and control skills with post ending bosses.

[Yoshichan]

Resonance of Fate is fucking amazing, and you should play it!

[Ra1den]

Final Fantasy XIII is what you need. It all comes down to how you use your paradigms mid-battle, constantly switching them up as the battle goes. It is very fun and keeps you on your toes, particularly if you avoid most encounters like I do (and so have rather weak characters). Boss battles all present unique situations for you to deal with...they all felt different. Amazing.

[2San]

Huh I thought RoF was pretty boring, I was pretty much doing that union triple attack all the time. There where battles that spiced things up, but you where still doing that triple attack all the time. It's pretty much all flash and no substance. Couple that with the imo boring hex world map. I got bored pretty fast.

[Syril]

Fortune Summoners is a good one. The characters all have multiple basic offensive and defensive maneuvers with varying range, damage, and risk, and the enemies are all highly aggressive and good at defense too.

[Seda]

Huh I thought RoF was pretty boring, I was pretty much doing that union triple attack all the time. There where battles that spiced things up, but you where still doing that triple attack all the time. It's pretty much all flash and no substance. Couple that with the imo boring hex world map. I got bored pretty fast.

I loved the game and combat system.

Never once did a union attack.

The actual in-battle mechanics of The Last Remnant aren't complex, but the class changing (which affects which arts show up more often) and the union buffs (putting certain races/classes in certain unions to get bonuses) can be quite confusing.

This. Really cool when you have it figured out though.

[shark sandwich]

Final Fantasy Tactics: Your strategy and party set up are far more important than character level. It was very challenging but fair.

Most Tales games: their "Hard" modes are a wonderful challenge, and your skill with the battle system matters far more than character level. I don't think I've ever spent time grinding in a Tales game. Best part is, you can change difficulties at any time, so no worry if you get stuck on a boss or whatever.

Final Fantasy XIII: I actually found this to be the most challenging and balanced FF game. It's not like most JRPGs where you just pick "attack" from a menu until everything dies. It's all about exploiting your enemy's weakness, breaking their defense, and comboing the crap out of them. The story, characters, and super-linear game structure aren't so great, but the battle system is one of the best in the series.

[Hot Coldman]

The Worlds Ends With You has a combat system that has the holy trinity of uniqueness, challenge and fun. You will over-level in the early game, just because you'll a) wanna get used to the combat system, and b) fall in love with it.

It also lets you level down, for more challenge.

[Ultratech]

I'd say Star Ocean 3 could qualify. I can't recall exactly how much of a skill ceiling there is in the game, but I do remember you can kill the strongest post game bosses with incredibly weak equipment (in fact, there were achievements to do so).

If you knew how AAA worked and could predict enemy attacks, you could kill a lot stuff without trying too hard. Not to mention Counter abuse with Peppita.

Hell, there was a Battle Trophy where you had to beat the last boss at Level 1.

Though some of the extra bosses were crazy hard without good skills/equips.

I'd say it qualifies given how good you'd need to be in order to get some of the harder battle trophies.

[Karsticles]

Xenoblade, apparently, though I've never bothered trying. Something about agility and toppling.

Xenoblade has a super simple, but still interesting and fun, combat system.

Tactics Ogre, Knights in the Nightmare and the Ys games are mostly skill based.

I'll vouch for Knights in the Nightmare. Hard as hell.

The World Ends With You had pretty challenging combat mechanics , which also made it unique.

TWEWY is super hard on higher difficulties.

[RedSwirl]

I think the OP needs to rethink how he's playing Persona 3, because that's one of the least power level-dependent games. It's much more about having the right persona and properly using your party's abilities. I actually found the AI in Persona 3 very reliable as long as you play to its strengths. The game rewards pure strategy more than most JRPGs I've played. So does Persona 4, which gives you full control of party members.

Also, I've heard a lot of people say Mass Effect on higher difficulty levels.

Vagrant Story took me the longest time to beat back in the days. I had no idea what I was doing and tried to risked everything in one massive, unending chain combo.

Excellent choice. Though the learning curve isn't much because the battle system is really complex, it's just odd. Very dependent on crafting.

Final Fantasy Tactics: Your strategy and party set up are far more important than character level. It was very challenging but fair.

Another great example from the same developer.

[kayos90]

I think Resonance of Fate's intro and tutorial is just poorly executed that one has to wonder if it was completely intentional. Anyway I'd have to say TLR, RoF, TWEWY all rank up as my favorite combat systems as well as challenging... to a degree.

[Augemitbutter]

Suikoden III: challenging if you don't cheap it out by grinding. you can even hit your own party if you aren't careful.

Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter: scary tactical roguelike SRPG. mash to die.

FFXIII: so good, they had to nerf the follow-up to be average again.

for action, try Ys and Xanadu Next.

[witchedwiz]

The combat system looks complex, but it isn't challenging at all.

actually the combat system isn't complex at all not challenging...
the issue is "levelling" correctly in a manner of speaking :P

[witchedwiz]

Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter: scary tactical roguelike SRPG. mash to die.

dudebro!
seriously dragon quarter is one of the most roguelike jrpg of the last gen..
You can be badassly OP too much... and get a gam over..
You can be a normal pushover... and quickly run out of healing items.. You have to thread carefully between farming and overfarming if you want a clean run, but most likely sooner or later on your first playthrough you'll have to do a SOL restart :X

[skylenorman]

Resonance of Fate took me weeks to master the combat system. Once I did, however it quickly became one of my favorite jRPGs.

[BadWolf]

I would like to try Resonance of Fate but I keep hearing all these negative things about it regularly like bad/minimal story, repetitive combat, cumbersome game design (something about lack of save spots or something, which I hate in rpgs) and the list goes on. It looks nice in pictures though.

FFXIII ppl seem to find hard but I did a media blackout on it and didn't know that, the battle system was very intuitive and extremely fun for me (pretty easy to boot). Loved it.

Vagrant Story, I'm pretty sure I played this one wrong lol. I finished it by mostly doing long ass chains where each attack did like 1 point of damage.

Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter: I got the hang of the battle system and was really enjoying the game but the dumbshit save system made me stop.

[Gbraga]

I'd recommend you FFXIII, but you don't own a 360 or a PS3 and you already played TLR, so I dunno.

Ys maybe?

[Hindle]

The whole Xenoblade seeing the future part of its battle system was pretty tricky.

[Jigsaw]

resonance of fate is not challenging at all,in fact probably even the least challenging we had this gen,it's just the tutorial is so bad you have to figure out all for yourself

you don't have to do anything to overpower the characters,they become gods just as they level up,on level 100 maschine gun i think they had 90% stun rate,meaning that the final boss or uber secret post game boss can't even take a turn because they are stunned for the entire battle,it's completely broken

[AuthenticM]

Xenosaga Episode II

the game is fucking awesome. Play it.

[Jrpgfanatic]

I came in to recommend Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter but I see that some fine gentlemen have already nominated it. I really don't understand all the hate for this game. Sure it's not a great Breath of Fire game, but if you cast the series moniker aside it's a wonderful game in its own right. It ranks in my top 10 PS2 games for sure.

[Tex117]

Resonance of Fate is so complicated most people just give up.

Came to post this.