[Basileus777]

This is the point I'm trying to make. I hope the people already screaming boycott are ready to give up gaming. It's going to be fun to watch how important they feel their "rights" truly are when some massive new amazing looking game gets announced.

"Every corporation is taking away consumers rights, so I'm going to enjoy gloating when those who care about those rights can't play games anymore."

Really?

People screaming boycott and outrage at every random thing on both sides of the forum as of late is unhealthy, yes. This is a good example of it as well. Again, I dont trust Valve implicitly but if you are so fucking terrified of this impending digital doomsday that something like this would make you boycott Valve and by association basically the entire hobby then you are better off in that cave. Its one thing to discuss the ramifications of things and the possibilities for the future, I didn't actually say otherwise, itd be nice to have real fucking discussions without the forced outrage and pitchforks on this forum again.

There's been what, one person who has talked about a boycott in this thread? Most of the outrageous statements have been from people defending Valve.

[BlackJace]

Pretty much. It's the only video on his channel with that many dislikes. I hope people now start to think alittle and see some room for concern in what TB says about Steam. This is the beginning of Valves misue of power as a self induced monopoly by the people. Their stranglehold over PC gaming is scary as fuck.

#ValveConspiracies

[delirium]

EA does shit with Origins. People are calling for boycotts of EA and how terrible they are. Valve does this for Steam and people are like "heh" and defending them.

Fanboyism at its finest.

[zoku88]

this is one of those times when you notice SCOTUS looks like SCROTUM

Oh, whoa there! I always thought it was the latter!

[Nerfgun]

Well.... it reads really slimy. On first glance, I don't like it.

But, given the cost of games, even a huge software library would fall pretty firmly with Small Claims Court, and in reality, an arbitration process is very likely to benefit both the customer and Valve more than a SCC process would. Valve is not stupid. They know if they really screw over the wrong customer, they are one Reddit post away from a nasty black mark, at least in the public perception if nothing else.

I think they have chosen the slightly lesser of two evils here. Just let's not forget that the choices are still... two evils.

[Joseph Merrick]

So what if I disagree with the EULA? Do I get my money back?

read the eula. no refunds. disagree with this

[BlackJace]

Like Billiechu said, this sucks, but I'm still using Steam.

[SoulPlaya]

Good. Valve has proven itself to be customer friendly and doesn't need a bunch of parasites trying to exploit them.

Holy shit, lol.

[Derrick01]

"Every corporation is taking away consumers rights, so I'm going to enjoy gloating when those who care about those rights can't play games anymore." Really?

Yes. I am soooo sick of everyone running around and wanting to boycott everything over every little thing. So in this case I want them to put their money where their...words are. Give up gaming and sulk in the corner while you champion your rights over every little injustice.

[MRORANGE]

This is the problem with a client based system, they have you by the balls for life. The more you have on Steam the more you get, and the more eggs you have in the one basket. I implore people to listen to TB's so called 'Tiny foiled hat' predictions on Steam, it really gets you thinking. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BW5tn7NoRqo&feature=plcp My favorite quote is "Valve is like that scientist that does good for the world but then goes on to create Frankenstein".

I saw that video a few days ago....

The arguments he puts forward are pretty weak in that video, he basically calls out Valve out for using F2P even when the asian market was doing it years ago, saying TF2 is the reason why we don't have any good FPS games, oh... and called out on steam users as day 1 pirates

TB can do good reviews time to time... but yeah that was some rambling nonsense there.

[Gez]

#ValveConspiracies

I wear my tin foiled hat with pride.

[VibratingDonkey]

This one isn't valid in EU either right?

IF YOU LIVE OUTSIDE OF THE UNITED STATES, SOME OR ALL OF SECTION 12 MIGHT NOT APPLY TO YOU.

Vague.

[Slavik81]

Unless you never planned on playing any of your steam games ever again, it's not like you could do anything but accept it. It's "optional" in a forced update and you can't access your Steam library unless you agree.

I have to say, this sounds like a failure of the law. You bought the rights to your old games under the old contract. Now, to keep the rights to your old games, you must agree to the new contract.

Basically, the real contract is completely arbitrary because they've reserved the right to provide no service (and no compensation) if you don't agree to the next contract. While that might be reasonable in certain cases, it seems unreasonable for a service such as Valve's where the consumer is directly paying for a specific service to be provided.

[XEROWUN]

Yes. I am soooo sick of everyone running around and wanting to boycott everything over every little thing. So in this case I want them to put their money where their...words are. Give up gaming and sulk in the corner while you champion your rights over every little injustice.

well, what other recourse do consumers have other than boycotting? its the last and only thing anyone can do if they feel strongly enough about a companies practices. it comes down to is, do they hate the company more than they love playing video games(on pc)?

[Tuck]

I don't see how thats legal. Microsoft and Sony have added such clauses into their user agreements, and it seems very anti-consumer.

[milesdm]

Could have something to do with the fact UK guys can force a refund under native legislation (Distance and Selling Regulations 2000).

[Margalis]

The arbitrator is typically a neutral third party that BOTH sides agree on.

In this case Valve has decided on the arbitrator. You "agree" to it in the same way that you agree to arbitration in the first place - clicking through.

Furthermore there is usually a lot of incentive for arbitrators to side with the company (repeat business) and no incentive to side with the consumer.

A third-party arbitrator who constantly sides with consumers basically can't stay in business.

[The_Hitcher89]

It's as bad if not worse than console fanboyism. It's pretty dam sad.

Its really weird to me. I don't go into Steam threads coz I don't have anything approaching a PC worth gaming on, but occasionally it seeps into other threads, and seems a bit, well, cultish. (Its an 'L,' don't ban me) :P

[Joseph Merrick]

This is the point I'm trying to make. I hope the people already screaming boycott are ready to give up gaming. It's going to be fun to watch how important they feel their "rights" truly are when some massive new amazing looking game gets announced.

I buy games all the time

[XEROWUN]

this is great, just as i was reading this thread, this popped up

July 31, 2012 - Steam client update released A Steam client update is now available. To apply the update, click the Steam menu inside of Steam and then select "Check for Steam Client Updates...". The specific changes include: - Fixed full screen video playback from the web control being slow - Fixed Steam wanting to "Install" all trailers and free games after registering some item-granting keys - Fixed Grid view custom image application for an image path containing non-ISO-Latin-1 characters - Fix regression which stopped the in-game overlay restarting/recovering after a browser plug-in crash (Flash) - Updated Steam Subscriber Agreement and Privacy Policy. To learn more, click here.

[Basileus777]

Yes. I am soooo sick of everyone running around and wanting to boycott everything over every little thing. So in this case I want them to put their money where their...words are. Give up gaming and sulk in the corner while you champion your rights over every little injustice.

This is pretty amusing coming from someone who spends most of his posts whining about how games have been dumbed down.

[Delusibeta]

Valve is one of the last major publishers to do this. For those against this to the point of boycott, are you prepared to give up playing video games? I checked and even the Humble Bundle has an arbitration clause. I don't really agree with it, but we're at a point now where individual cases are difficult to argue against. At this point if you disagree it's better to go to the government, as the policy is intertwined into everything you do.

Yeah, sadly the boat for complaining about "no class action" clauses sunk when the US Supreme Court upheld AT&T's version.

What we can complain about is the new Luxumberg branch of Valve, which is almost certainly for reducing tax purposes. Naughty.

[BlackJace]

Yes. I am soooo sick of everyone running around and wanting to boycott everything over every little thing. So in this case I want them to put their money where their...words are. Give up gaming and sulk in the corner while you champion your rights over every little injustice.

This is one of the few times on this forum that I sorta agree with you. You could be a little bit more tactful about it though.

I am kinda getting tired over people crying boycott over everything. I'm not saying we as consumers should bend over and take it, but somethings are just the product of a capitalistic society.
Your rights are your rights, I don't need to fucking hear about them and how you feel they are being trifled with every single thread.

[we.are.the.armada]

Will wait for LegalGAF to chime in.

I'm assuming that Valve simply wants to mitigate instances of frivolous action that cost them time and money while also isolating legitimate issues within their business. I don't know if Valve is increasing protection against typical class action shit, proportionate liability, et al, but it's certainly a good idea with how nasty these disputes can get. Doesn't really weaken the consumer's power, just the parasitic ones and their legal counsel.

I certainly don't think Valve is doing this to deter claims from being made since that has never been their demeanor.

Well, valve will never see any of my money again.

Why? Were you planning on getting a class certification because TF2 somehow ruined you and your petitioners financially via the Hat Market and it's Valve's fault?

[TucoBenedictoPacifico]

This is the problem with a client based system, they have you by the balls for life. The more you have on Steam the more you get, and the more eggs you have in the one basket. I implore people to listen to TB's so called 'Tiny foiled hat' predictions on Steam, it really gets you thinking. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BW5tn7NoRqo&feature=plcp My favorite quote is "Valve is like that scientist that does good for the world but then goes on to create Frankenstein".

There are a lot of false statements or wrong assumptions in his argument, to be honest.

In example: "Maybe some developers don't want to put their games on Steam cause it costs too much, maybe Valve charges too much for it".
Uh, no, they don't charge *anything* in advance, they just take a cut of the sale as any other digital distributor.

Or "Every time there's some sale i have problems accessing my games. It tells me the service is too busy but the game IS ON MY HARD DISK".
WUT? Beside the fact that I never had problems connecting on Steam... When the service is overloaded that doesn't affect installed games at all. It can be a problem just to access the store or the community features.

Also, as many on this forum, he's very quick blaming people who want their games on Steam or GoG to "fanboyism", but that has actually nothing to do with fanboyism. It's about people not liking the idea of fragmenting their game collection over dozens of smaller services because it's simply annoying, impractical and in some case even unreliable.
I'm sorry, but if you think the underdog deserves sympathy I can even understand your point, to some degree, but that doesn't change how I'm not confident at all that Desura will still be around five years from now, and I am even less confident about Beamdog.

I already use five different services (Steam, GoG, Impulse pre-Gamestop, Gamersgate and in a few occasions before it was named so, even Origin) and quite frankly I feel like that's already WAY too much fragmentation.
I'm not going nut every time a game isn't on Steam, as my collection proves, but I surely don't like being forced to split my gaming collection without having an option to choose my digital store.
And no, people, don't even try to sell me that "it's good for competition" bullshit. It's not a competition that advantages the customer when it takes away option from him, instead of giving him choice.

[Derrick01]

well, what other recourse do consumers have other than boycotting? its the last and only thing anyone can do if they feel strongly enough about a companies practices. it comes down to is, do they hate the company more than they love playing video games(on pc)?

No no no this isn't just PC gaming. MS and Sony have agreed to it too and someone said Nintendo is right around the corner. So where are they going to play games? ios? Have fun with that, even though I'm sure someone like Apple put this clause up too.

So if they feel the need to overreact to this then yes I want them to go through with their boycott. I want to do an experiment on how long they'll last.

[alr1ght]

I don't see how thats legal. Microsoft and Sony have added such clauses into their user agreements, and it seems very anti-consumer.

Welcome to the United Corporations of America.

[shinobi602]

I'll never understand how something like this is legal...aren't lawsuits a federal right so to speak? How can you stop that...?

[balladofwindfishes]

Yes. I am soooo sick of everyone running around and wanting to boycott everything over every little thing. So in this case I want them to put their money where their...words are. Give up gaming and sulk in the corner while you champion your rights over every little injustice.

hope they're prepared to give up their phone contracts, cable and Internet too, because telecom companies, cable companies and ISPs all employ the same exact clauses.

This isn't an issue you can tackle by picking a specific company to boycott. It requires government intervention and they're the ones that need to be petitioned.

[TheD]

Yes. I am soooo sick of everyone running around and wanting to boycott everything over every little thing. So in this case I want them to put their money where their...words are. Give up gaming and sulk in the corner while you champion your rights over every little injustice.

I am sick of people like you defending things that make peoples lives worse (in some way, shape or form)!

Just because you are blind to the times companies should be sued does not mean others should give up rights and take it lying down just because you don't like being reminded how weak willed you are!

[XEROWUN]

Yes. I am soooo sick of everyone running around and wanting to boycott everything over every little thing. So in this case I want them to put their money where their...words are. Give up gaming and sulk in the corner while you champion your rights over every little injustice.

also, this might be a good thing for there to be more than one DD system like having Origin as an option. don't like steam? then you have alternatives. why allow steam to become a monopoly on video gaming on pc?

[Atomski]

Didnt Sony pretty much do the same thing last year?

[GoofsterStud]

So if I don't accept I lose all my Steam games?

How is this optional? Are they going to refund me, make my games DRM free?

I doubt I will buy steam games new again. I hate these anti-consumer stances, and I will show it with my dollar.

(sigh, 250 a year doesn't have a lot of power) Don't get me wrong, I'll still buy the sales items.

[Air Zombie Meat]

Yes. I am soooo sick of everyone running around and wanting to boycott everything over every little thing. So in this case I want them to put their money where their...words are. Give up gaming and sulk in the corner while you champion your rights over every little injustice.

Aren't you the guy that was going batshit insane over the Mass Effect ending?

[The_Hitcher89]

also, this might be a good thing for there to be more than one DD system like having Origin as an option. don't like steam? then you have alternatives. why allow steam to become a monopoly on video gaming on pc?

Some people want a monopoly, bizarrely.

[water_wendi]

Not surprised.

[Laughing Banana]

Correct me if I am mistaken, but in this thread there was only one person claiming that he/she would boycott Valve due to this.

Just one person, IIRC.

And yet, it is interesting how the perspective seem to have shifted to imply that every person disagreeing with this is automatically considered to trying to boycott Valve in full. Disagreeing equals full boycott, while I really think this is not necessarily always the case, correct?

Just my impression.

[Derrick01]

I am sick of people like you defending things that make peoples lives worse (in some way, shape or form)! Just because you are blind to the times companies should be sued does not mean others should give up rights and take it lying down just because you don't like being reminded how weak willed you are!

Then boycott. Quit telling me how much of a corporate ballwasher I am and sack up and quit gaming. I believe you were the first to call boycott here, and as I already said every other provider already beat Steam to this. So I sure hope you're not a heavy gamer.

[Jintor]

This one isn't valid in EU either right?

Depends on what the EU clauses are I'd guess. Is there a legislated right to class action lawsuits?

[TheD]

Why? Were you planning on getting a class certification because TF2 somehow ruined you and your petitioners financially via the Hat Market and it's Valve's fault?

I kind of like my legal rights, just in case something does happen.
It is called foresight!

[Bony Manifesto]

No no no this isn't just PC gaming. MS and Sony have agreed to it too and someone said Nintendo is right around the corner. So where are they going to play games? ios? Have fun with that, even though I'm sure someone like Apple put this clause up too. So if they feel the need to overreact to this then yes I want them to go through with their boycott. I want to do an experiment on how long they'll last.

Don't you think perhaps you might be the one overreacting a tad?

[Gez]

Aren't you the guy that was going batshit insane over the Mass Effect ending?

shots fired!

[Zaptruder]

Do stupid EULAs ever hold up in court?

As far as I can tell, they're just lawyer busy work and for the self satisfaction of the companies that come up with dumb 'legal butt protection' tricks.

[Class_A_Ninja]

The ultimate betrayal when Steam turns on the userbase. The meltdowns will be glorious.

In the end they were actually 5-10 dollar extended rentals. I'm filled with rage.

The few games I cared about could be bought from steam 2 for a buck at that point because they are the old busted. Maybe they are just an executable at that point. We all know the online has long been disabled. This is the future.

[Snowden's Secret]

No no no this isn't just PC gaming. MS and Sony have agreed to it too and someone said Nintendo is right around the corner. So where are they going to play games? ios? Have fun with that, even though I'm sure someone like Apple put this clause up too. So if they feel the need to overreact to this then yes I want them to go through with their boycott. I want to do an experiment on how long they'll last.

Everyone has a line. I have mine, you yours. If crossed, that's all she wrote.

Not saying this is it, but it could be.

All digital future is mine

[balladofwindfishes]

I am sick of people like you defending things that make peoples lives worse (in some way, shape or form)! Just because you are blind to the times companies should be sued does not mean others should give up rights and take it lying down just because you don't like being reminded how weak willed you are!

but in this case if you boycott all the companies that practice this you basically boycott the 21st century.

Are you prepared to stick to your rights enough to give up TV, Internet, phone calls, all forms of video games and/or the use of a non-Linux OS?

[alstein]

No, I don't think it is. I think arbitration is much better than an actual lawsuit. Do you know how class action lawsuits work? Most civil cases actually do not go to trial but end in alternative dispute resolution (i.e. mediation, arbitration, etc.). Lawsuits are expensive and can be dragged out by years. The arbitrator is typically a neutral third party that BOTH sides agree on. It's not like it's a Valve employee determining the outcome. Some of these posters have no idea what this actually means.

Actually, I'd rather be in a class action that hurts the company hard and get nothing , over getting a paltry sum and having the company just write it off as a small cost of business. The point of class actions is to change corporate behavior, not to win money.

Also , you are wrong on how arbitrators are selected in mandatory binding arbitration- it truly is a kangaroo court with a 95%+ success rate for corporations.

http://consumerist.com/2009/02/manda...ture-ever.html

[VibratingDonkey]

I have to say, this sounds like a failure of the law. You bought the rights to your old games under the old contract. Now, to keep the rights to your old games, you must agree to the new contract. Basically, the real contract is completely arbitrary because they've reserved the right to provide no service (and no compensation) if you don't agree to the next contract. While that might be reasonable in certain cases, it seems unreasonable for a service such as Valve's where the consumer is directly paying for a specific service to be provided.

Someone should sue them.

[Derrick01]

Aren't you the guy that was going batshit insane over the Mass Effect ending?

Yup and I tried to do an EA boycott. Generally it's really easy to do because they don't put out much of value but I admit I broke it once. And that was just with EA games, so I want to see if the quit all gaming crowd can last longer than I did with just 1 publisher.

[SaintMadeOfPlaster]

If any other company did this, the general opinion would be much angrier. Don't see why Valve/Gabe gives everyone here a boner. Making good games/services does not justify this. What if they started giving out private information to other companies? We wouldn't be able to sue them, and that's fine?