[Gorillaz]

Something has got to give...Might need to trim even more fat somewhere in the company.

[earvcunanan]

I dont question him being right, I want to know if Kaz ever publicly said such thing.

I'm trying to find the interview, but I'm wondering if anyone else remembers him saying this or am I just crazy?

[donny2112]

Since "Game" is its own category now, can we start comparing Nintendo and Sony again? Think Sony is less negative after one quarter of FY13, in that case.

Edit:

Even better! Can someone update that old chart now for Sony and Nintendo?

[Averon]

I just don't think next gen is going to turn out well for anyone. Least of all Sony, who barely has the money to make the necessary investments.

Sony have a lot of problems, but given last several months of acquisitions and investments they made, having funds to invest in things isn't a problem for them. At least not yet.

[Karma]

nvm I found the graph. I wasnt comparing the right units. Graph is in billions of yen not millions of dollars. my bad. Anyways you can see PS3 hasnt lost everything they made with PS1 and PS2. At least this can be updated now with the 2011 figures. edit: oops see that it was already posted.

You are right the PS3 hasnt lost all the PS2 and PS1 profits just all the PS2 profits.

[Lion Heart]

PS1 > PS2. I always knew it.

[Canis lupus]

Since "Game" is its own category now, can we start comparing Nintendo and Sony again? Think Sony is less negative after one quarter of FY13, in that case.

Indeed, Sony game division made 1/5th of Nintendo's losses last Q.

[michaelius]

Still a crazy number with how passive they're being.

They are probably banking on Madden/Assassin/Cod to push reasonable numbers.

[Triple U]

There probably shouldn't be PS4. But, nonetheless, it's Sony so it's coming. I just don't think next gen is going to turn out well for anyone. Least of all Sony, who barely has the money to make the necessary investments.

Oh wow. Probably shouldn't make a successor to one of the few things they have thats currently going good. Such sound logic. And a company with as much money as Sony(yes even after all these losses) doesn't need to rely on profits made or not made this gen to launch another product not sure what you're on about. Not really how that works...

[JohnnySasaki86]

so according to the graph and 2011's numbers, in order for Sony to offset the losses incured from PS3 and break even(not counting PS1 and PS2), they would need to generate a profit of $5 billion, or about 395 billion yen, in the gaming devision. So yes it could take more than a decade to do that. Not quite a lifetime but might as well be.

[Loghorn150]

You are right the PS3 hasnt lost all the PS2 and PS1 profits just all the PS2 profits.

Throughout that graph, they managed to make at least $644 Billion Yen throughout the PS1 & PS2 days. But then throughout 2006 to 2009, they managed to lose at least $462 Billion Yen of it, so that's now $182 Billion yen before 2010.

But what about FY 2010, FY 2011, & Q1 of 2012?

[Dalthien]

Indeed, Sony game division made 1/5th of Nintendo's losses last Q.

More like 1/3. You can't compare one company's operating loss with another company's net loss.

[donny2112]

So Sony games division is 245 B Yen in profit since its start in FY1995, correct? (219 B Yen from graph + FY 11 + Q1 FY12)

[GavinGT]

[/IMG] nvm I found the graph. I wasnt comparing the right units. Graph is in billions of yen not millions of dollars. my bad. Anyways you can see PS3 hasnt lost everything they made with PS1 and PS2. At least this can be updated now with the 2011 figures. edit: oops see that it was already posted.

Perhaps the popular sentiment was that they nearly wiped away all their previous profits. So they're about a half billion dollars ahead of where they started 17 years ago.

Still, I don't see how anyone can look at those numbers and think putting out another Playstation is a wise idea. The console market is losing steam, the Playstation brand has lost appeal, and game development is riskier than ever. Plus, they can't afford to loss-lead this time around, whereas Microsoft happily will. Sony is at a competitive disadvantage in a market that is already stagnating.

[casinoman921]

Any guesstimates on Vita sales for the quarter?

Such depressing numbers.

[Canis lupus]

Throughout that graph, they managed to make at least $644 Billion Yen throughout the PS1 & PS2 days. But then throughout 2006 to 2009, they managed to at least lose $462 Billion Yen of it. Someone now needs to update the chart to include FY 2010, FY 2011, & part of 2012.

That chart would include 29b Yen for FY11

[bangai-o]

Something has got to give...Might need to trim even more fat somewhere in the company.

Ico Team.

[ElTopo]

Perhaps the popular sentiment was that they nearly wiped away all their previous profits. So they're about a half billion dollars ahead of where they started 17 years ago. Still, I don't see how anyone can look at those numbers and think putting out another Playstation is a wise idea. The console market is losing steam, the Playstation brand has lost appeal, and game development is riskier than ever. Plus, they can't afford to loss-lead this time around, whereas Microsoft happily will. Sony is at a competitive disadvantage in a market that is already stagnating.

Maybe they should try to innovate, instead of simply pushing out better tech ? Maybe they should simply focus on making a good, affordable console that makes them money from the start ?

[Loghorn150]

Maybe they should try to innovate, instead of simply pushing out better tech? Maybe they should simply focus on making a good, affordable console that makes them money from the start?

They need to. Otherwise, they're going to drive themselves out of the gaming industry for good.

[Dalthien]

So Sony games division is 245 B Yen in profit since its start in FY1995, correct? (219 B Yen from graph + FY 11 + Q1 FY12)

Yep. (as long as the numbers in the graph are correct - although they look right at first glance).

[Karma]

So the gaming division has lost money the last 2 Quarters?

11.5 Billion yen in Q4 and 3.5 Billion yen in Q1.

Why?

[Ryoku]

Maybe they should try to innovate, instead of simply pushing out better tech ? Maybe they should simply focus on making a good, affordable console that makes them money from the start ?

I don't get their thinking. The console WILL sell regardless of its power. There are people who WILL buy it in the face of competition if it has the games (PS1/PS2). I'm a believer that better tech is great, but not if it means losing money when you're already losing money in the first place. They're poised to suffer losses yet again, but the question is: How much?

Something has got to give...Might need to trim even more fat somewhere in the company.

Naughty Dog

[Kyon]

So the gaming division has lost money the last 2 Quarters? 11.5 Billion yen in Q4 and 3.5 Billion yen in Q1. Why?

PS4

[Kazerei]

Annual Operating Income (billions of yen)

Year  Sony  Nintendo
1995    -9   72
1996    57   65
1997   117  128
1998   137  156
1999    77  145
2000   -51   85
2001    83  119
2002   113  100
2003    68  108
2004    43  112
2005     9   90
2006  -232  226
2007  -125  487
2008   -58  555
2009   -57  357
2010    47  171
2011    29  -37

Sony numbers from the graph and info added to OP, and Nintendo numbers from here

[bangai-o]

So the gaming division has lost money the last 2 Quarters? 11.5 Billion yen in Q4 and 3.5 Billion yen in Q1. Why?

because free psn.

[patapuf]

Maybe they should try to innovate, instead of simply pushing out better tech ? Maybe they should simply focus on making a good, affordable console that makes them money from the start ?

you can not accuse sony of not innovating with their hardware. In fact it's one of the biggest reasons the PS3 lost so much money.

making an affordable console that makes money from the start would mean that they don't innovate at all and just put out proven, better and cheap tech. That may be the way to go this time but that depends on how Nintendo and MS approach next gen and what other innovations happen in the PC/tablet space

[Dalthien]

Any guesstimates on Vita sales for the quarter? Such depressing numbers.

Sold to consumers would be about 600k for the quarter. (200k US + 175k Japan + rest of world). Maybe a bit higher if Europe was stronger than North America.

[Satchel]

I wish I could read this stuff.

I was reading that stuff as not that bad. Didn't Microsoft as a whole lose more?

Or am I imagining things?

[Canis lupus]

Any guesstimates on Vita sales for the quarter? Such depressing numbers.

PSP did around 230k in Japan while Vita did +-175k using MC numbers(actual sales). I'm guessing total shipments is around 600k for PSP and 800k for Vita. But I'm comparing apples with oranges really.

[ElTopo]

you can not accuse sony of not innovating with their hardware. In fact it's one of the biggest reasons the PS3 lost so much money. making an affordable console that makes money from the start would mean that they don't innovate at all and just put out proven, better and cheap tech. That may be the way to go this time but that depends on how Nintendo and MS approach next gen.

I wasn't so much referring to (internal) hardware innovations, but to a different approach to gaming itself, e.g. with innovations in the input method (controller). They need to make a bold move and show people a new vision of gaming, one that isn't just "more of the same" because I'm not sure they can compete with Microsoft (financially) in that regard.

[timetokill]

Annual Operating Income (billions of yen) Sony numbers from the graph and info added to OP, and Nintendo numbers from here

So the "score" (lol) is --

Sony: 248
Nintendo: 2939

whee.


looking at those golden wii/ds years is insane in comparison.

[Satchel]

Sony really needs to play it safe next gen and go with a cheaper super profitable console to make sure they can launch stronger in the gen after.

They need to worry more about their profit and less about fanboy console wars.

It's pretty much what Nintendo did after the 64. Kinda.

[Tarrasque]

Honestly the Vita is going through the same cycle as the 3DS at this point. It hasn't even been a year since the launch of the thing, sales tend to scale with software releases. Hope to see some first party exclusives. (Edit for MH4 typo)

[Dalthien]

PS4

They're not losing money right now because of the PS4. Companies take losses in the year that the system launches - not this far out. Gaming revenue is down 15% this quarter vs. a year ago. That's why they're losing money.

[Loghorn150]

So the "score" (lol) is -- Sony: 248 Nintendo: 2939

And even more than $2,939 Billion Yen for Nintendo if you count the years before 1995.

[gundamkyoukai]

Perhaps the popular sentiment was that they nearly wiped away all their previous profits. So they're about a half billion dollars ahead of where they started 17 years ago. Still, I don't see how anyone can look at those numbers and think putting out another Playstation is a wise idea. The console market is losing steam, the Playstation brand has lost appeal, and game development is riskier than ever. Plus, they can't afford to loss-lead this time around, whereas Microsoft happily will. Sony is at a competitive disadvantage in a market that is already stagnating.

The PS brand is still strong not as strong as before but still strong .
Also of course the console market is stagnating this gen has gone on for to long .
I don't see how it makes any sense not to bring out PS4 when it's one of the few products that can make them money .
All they have to do is bring a okay piece of hardware and not lose to much money on it in the beginning and they will be find .

[bigtroyjon]

So the gaming division has lost money the last 2 Quarters? 11.5 Billion yen in Q4 and 3.5 Billion yen in Q1. Why?

Revenue is down and Sony has a ton of fixed costs(developer salaries being the big one) that have to get paid regularly no matter how much money they generated in a specific quarter.

[Lynn616]

So Sony games division is 245 B Yen in profit since its start in FY1995, correct? (219 B Yen from graph + FY 11 + Q1 FY12)

Just wanted to say that it is not my graph. I got it here on GAF somewhere. I can not confirm it is 100% correct or not.

[Canis lupus]

Sony really needs to play it safe next gen and go with a cheaper super profitable console to make sure they can launch stronger in the gen after. They need to worry more about their profit and less about fanboy console wars. It's pretty much what Nintendo did after the 64. Kinda.

I dont think Sony was ever driven by fanboyism or console wars.

[timetokill]

Honestly the Vita is going through the same cycle as the 3DS at this point. It hasn't even been a year since the launch of the thing, sales tend to scale with software releases. Can't wait to see what MH4 and All Stars will do for the system if they turn out as good as they look.

honestly, the Vita is doing worse than the 3DS ever was. It's really not wise to compare them.


on a side note, did I miss something? MH4 for Vita?

[AOC83]

Sony really needs to play it safe next gen and go with a cheaper super profitable console to make sure they can launch stronger in the gen after. They need to worry more about their profit and less about fanboy console wars. It's pretty much what Nintendo did after the 64. Kinda.

And who´s going to buy that thing? Sony isn´t alone on the market.

[Ichabod]

The rent is too damn high!

[chris0701]

Sony lowered the forecast of handheld device sales (PSP + PSV) from 16M units to 12M.

[Canis lupus]

And who´s going to buy that thing? Sony isn´t alone on the market.

Ive never understood the "Sony should make a cheap console and play it safe". What if Sony could put a console for 400 bucks(assembly, transport etc) in stores but sell it to 450. Contrarily they could put a more powerful console at 500 bucks but sell it 450 and lose money on it.

[GavinGT]

The PS brand is still strong not as strong as before but still strong . Also of course the console market is stagnating this gen has gone on for to long . I don't see how it makes any sense not to bring out PS4 when it's one of the few products that can make them money . All they have to do is bring a okay piece of hardware and not lose to much money on it in the beginning and they will be find .

So they just have to do monumentally better than the previous generation under conditions which are far worse. Got it.

[Celine]

Annual Operating Income (billions of yen) Year Sony Nintendo 1995 -9 72 1996 57 65 1997 117 128 1998 137 156 1999 77 145 2000 -51 85 2001 83 119 2002 113 100 2003 68 108 2004 43 112 2005 9 90 2006 -232 226 2007 -125 487 2008 -58 555 2009 -57 357 2010 47 171 2011 29 -37 Sony numbers from the graph and info added to OP, and Nintendo numbers from here

Now if some gaffer would do a graph of that ...

Sony really needs to play it safe next gen and go with a cheaper super profitable console to make sure they can launch stronger in the gen after. They need to worry more about their profit and less about fanboy console wars. It's pretty much what Nintendo did after the 64. Kinda.

Not really Nintendo for the most part as always done the "cheap" console route.
For example in 1997 it was estimated that N64 was 50$ cheaper to make than PS1.

[noobie]

When is the conference call.. usually we do get some useful tidbits from it..

[Castor Krieg]

Sony really needs to play it safe next gen and go with a cheaper super profitable console to make sure they can launch stronger in the gen after. They need to worry more about their profit and less about fanboy console wars. It's pretty much what Nintendo did after the 64. Kinda.

The new console is probably already locked-in as far as specs are concerned. It will be a technical monster, which will be a disaster, but Sony cannot do it any other way - they are high-tech company, driven by engineers. You cannot re-orient a company just like that, and tell them "make something cheap and not so powerful", it is a mindset problem.

Nintendo was able to do that, because they never saw themselves as a high-tech company. They preach "fun, not specs" all the time. I think Sony's R&D would rebel if asked to make a Wii.

[Satchel]

I dont think Sony was ever driven by fanboyism or console wars.

I beg to differ

And who´s going to buy that thing? Sony isn´t alone on the market.

Plenty would buy a specced up PS3(4) especially if the price was right, the OS/online was smartened up, and full BC.

I think so anyway.

The new console is probably already locked-in as far as specs are concerned. It will be a technical monster, which will be a disaster, but Sony cannot do it any other way - they are high-tech company, driven by engineers. You cannot re-orient a company just like that, and tell them "make something cheap and not so powerful", it is a mindset problem. Nintendo was able to do that, because they never saw themselves as a high-tech company.

Well then they're their own worst enemy much like Sega and will have no one to blame but themselves if the seemingly inevitable happens.

[SirIgbyCeaser]

at current sales trend, Vita + psp need 2 holiday WW to hit 12 mil. price cut and huge announcements during next 3 months, or.. they are gonna miss anyway.

You can't say that because vita has not had a holiday yet. Not in europe or the US.