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Gowans
(08-05-2012, 08:00 AM)
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I know this is expected but don't you love the way Steam Support put it here.



In the UK/EU I believe it can be ignored as I don't think this can hold up with our consumer rights.
Just like the fact you can get a refund on any digital download in the UK 7 days after with no explanation or even after that if it's not as intended. (I've used that a few times.

FYI: TLDR Version of Steams New Agreement
dekline
Member
(08-05-2012, 08:01 AM)
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Makes sense
Shark Johnson
Why yes, I am on Xbox LIVE. How did you know?
(08-05-2012, 08:02 AM)
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Absolutely unacceptable.

Valve needs to make right on this.
Green Biker Dude
Member
(08-05-2012, 08:03 AM)
that's fucked up

fuck you, valve
Wario64
works for Gamestop (lol)
(08-05-2012, 08:04 AM)
So we're not really owning our digital games? I quit gaming.
Jasper Avenue
Member
(08-05-2012, 08:05 AM)
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Not surprising.

When's the next Steam sale?
markot
Junior Member
(08-05-2012, 08:05 AM)
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Well, its something all companies are going to start doing. Dont blame Valve, blame the Supreme court. Also you can 'hey hey ho ho' your politicians into changing the law to make these kind of clauses illegal. But I think they prefer the company of AT&T to you low life commoners.

It was clear you didnt own your digital shit when they say you cant resell. Its a license at most. Same goes for music and movies.

Id love to sell, hell give away, tonnes of the crap on my steam backlog.
Last edited by markot; 08-05-2012 at 08:07 AM.
Crayons
Member
(08-05-2012, 08:06 AM)
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I don't know why everyone really cares about this. I never knew so many people planned on suing valve in a class action lawsuit. Valve is not the first and definitely not the last company to do this. No one cared when other companies did this. Valve is the most trustworthy company I know, and I know Gaben would never wrong me.
Wario64
works for Gamestop (lol)
(08-05-2012, 08:08 AM)

Originally Posted by Crayons

No one cared when other companies did this. Valve is the most trustworthy company I know, and I know Gaben would never wrong me.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=445003
Wuthering_Heights
Member
(08-05-2012, 08:08 AM)
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Just accept the agreement and play your games.
Jintor
Lit himself on fire to get
a mod to tag him
(08-05-2012, 08:08 AM)
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Originally Posted by Wario64

So we're not really owning our digital games? I quit gaming.

You've ne- oh, it's Wario64
Karsticles
Member
(08-05-2012, 08:10 AM)
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Originally Posted by Wario64

So we're not really owning our digital games? I quit gaming.

Hahaha, touche.
Crayons
Member
(08-05-2012, 08:10 AM)
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Originally Posted by Wario64

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=445003

I stand corrected. However this doesn't really change anything, the people in a class action lawsuit don't get anything, it's all given to the lawyers. Valve was just protecting themselves as a company.

Originally Posted by markot

The idea of signing away a right for no reason other then it benefits one party is kinda shennanigany. No matter who the company is. This 'abuse of class actions' disgusies the fact that most class actions are brought on to right wrongs, and only are able to be done because they are class actions. Screwing people for $5 isnt much, but when its 1 million customers it is, but who is going to sue over $5?

The problem is the government allowing these rights to be taken away, not Valve for just copying clauses that have been used for years.
Last edited by Crayons; 08-05-2012 at 08:12 AM.
markot
Junior Member
(08-05-2012, 08:10 AM)
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Originally Posted by Crayons

I don't know why everyone really cares about this. I never knew so many people planned on suing valve in a class action lawsuit. Valve is not the first and definitely not the last company to do this. No one cared when other companies did this. Valve is the most trustworthy company I know, and I know Gaben would never wrong me.

The idea of signing away a right for no reason other then it benefits one party is kinda shennanigany. No matter who the company is. This 'abuse of class actions' disgusies the fact that most class actions are brought on to right wrongs, and only are able to be done because they are class actions. Screwing people for $5 isnt much, but when its 1 million customers it is, but who is going to sue over $5?
JaseC
Member
(08-05-2012, 08:11 AM)
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Originally Posted by Crayons

I don't know why everyone really cares about this. I never knew so many people planned on suing valve in a class action lawsuit. Valve is not the first and definitely not the last company to do this. No one cared when other companies did this. Valve is the most trustworthy company I know, and I know Gaben would never wrong me.

I'd wager it's not so much the lawsuit clause that has people up in arms, but rather the fact you lose access to your account should you click "I disagree". There's no valid reason why Valve shouldn't instead restrict the accounts of those who refuse to accept an updated SSA.
Last edited by JaseC; 08-05-2012 at 08:18 AM.
GoofsterStud
Member
(08-05-2012, 08:11 AM)
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It's messed up that a company can get away with this. I haven't installed or downloaded most of my Summer Sales, yet they won't refund me if I cancel for a service not provided. Nothing was provided if you didn't even download the game.

It's just messed up.

Originally Posted by Crayons

I stand corrected. However this doesn't really change anything, the people in a class action lawsuit don't get anything, it's all given to the lawyers. Valve was just protecting themselves as a company.

Sheep will be sheep...anyone who believes Arbitrators are in the best interest of the consumer needs a reality check. It'd be like hiring a security guard that constantly gives you tickets....that you have to pay too....
Last edited by GoofsterStud; 08-05-2012 at 08:13 AM.
chertipros
Member
(08-05-2012, 08:12 AM)
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Oh well. Companies gonna company i guess
KDR_11k
Member
(08-05-2012, 08:13 AM)
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Originally Posted by Crayons

I don't know why everyone really cares about this. I never knew so many people planned on suing valve in a class action lawsuit. Valve is not the first and definitely not the last company to do this. No one cared when other companies did this. Valve is the most trustworthy company I know, and I know Gaben would never wrong me.

As a European I don't really care about the new terms (AFAIK the only new term is banning resale which is absolutely unenforceable as the ECJ ruling that prompted it specifically forbade such terms) but waiving a right permanently is never a good thing. You may not need the right to class action now but who says you will NEVER need it?

On the other hand you can just file an individual lawsuit instead and have everybody else do the same, while that'll get far fewer people actually involved because most are lazy that would still be significantly more damaging than a class action because it's practically a legal DDoS (the defendant would need to fight every case individually).

IMO the severability clause must be banned, it's unacceptable that they can just write bogus terms into their agreement that a layman could not tell from a real enforceable term.
Darryl
Member
(08-05-2012, 08:15 AM)
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Yea, this is pretty shitty. It's nothing that I didn't already expect, though. I'm curious as to how this stuff is even legal.
JaseC
Member
(08-05-2012, 08:16 AM)
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Originally Posted by GoofsterStud

It's messed up that a company can get away with this. I haven't installed or downloaded most of my Summer Sales, yet they won't refund me if I cancel for a service not provided. Nothing was provided if you didn't even download the game.

It's just messed up.

The refund policy not extending beyond pre-purchases is because Valve can't know if you've used the key outside of Steam. Obviously (most) Steamworks keys can be used on Steam and Steam only, but the waters are muddied when you consider third-party solutions such as GFWL or uPlay, which require a valid CD key.
Arksy
Member
(08-05-2012, 08:16 AM)
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Originally Posted by Darryl

Yea, this is pretty shitty. It's nothing that I didn't already expect, though. I'm curious as to how this stuff is even legal.

It's not.

Edit: Depending on your Jurisdiction. If you're in Australia you can probably force a refund.

Originally Posted by JaseC

The refund policy not extending beyond pre-purchases is because Valve can't know if you've used the key outside of Steam. Obviously (most) Steamworks keys can be used on Steam and Steam only, but the waters are muddied when you consider third-party solutions such as GFWL or uPlay, which require a valid CD key.

Not true. If you go to Account Settings > Account History it comes up with a list of all the items redeemed in Steam and the source of that item.
Last edited by Arksy; 08-05-2012 at 08:21 AM.
shinobi602
Banned
(08-05-2012, 08:16 AM)
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Retail>digital confirmed.
SirIgbyCeaser
Banned
(08-05-2012, 08:18 AM)
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Class action lawsuit incoming before this user agree's not to make one.
Viewtify
Banned
(08-05-2012, 08:18 AM)
How many people were actually planning to sue Valve anyway?
Vane_MagicCity
Banned
(08-05-2012, 08:20 AM)
You know how everyone seems to believe that if Steam goes under, they will remove the DRM?

How about now? They can't even do it for the few people who disagree with the updated agreement.
IceMarker
Member
(08-05-2012, 08:20 AM)
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Are you all making a mountain out of this still?
BurnOutBrighter
Member
(08-05-2012, 08:21 AM)
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So yeah, you agreed to this the first time you signed up.
GoofsterStud
Member
(08-05-2012, 08:21 AM)
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Originally Posted by Viewtify

How many people were actually planning to sue Valve anyway?

It's the point that they want us to give away one of there given rights while not refunding you for services not provided if you disagree.

That's what I am mad about. I would say no. My civil rights are not worth the sales I just bought, and stealing my money (taking my money while not providing a service) is just as wrong.


Note: The initial contract is void, as now you are talking about civil liberties, otherwise you might as well give your first born to Steam, as there terms could change to that at any point. Perfect legal right.


Originally Posted by JaseC

The refund policy not extending beyond pre-purchases is because Valve can't know if you've used the key outside of Steam. Obviously (most) Steamworks keys can be used on Steam and Steam only, but the waters are muddied when you consider third-party solutions such as GFWL or uPlay, which require a valid CD key.

Then they need to set up a way to facilitate that. As of right now they robbed me.
Last edited by GoofsterStud; 08-05-2012 at 08:24 AM.
shagg_187
lapdance transform pants
(08-05-2012, 08:21 AM)
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Originally Posted by Vane_MagicCity

You know how everyone seems to believe that if Steam goes under, they will remove the DRM?

How about now? They can't even do it for the few people who disagree with the updated agreement.

Believing is always fun until reality hits you.
KevinCow
Banned
(08-05-2012, 08:21 AM)
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actually owning the things you buy is so 20th century
shagg_187
lapdance transform pants
(08-05-2012, 08:22 AM)
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Originally Posted by KevinCow

actually owning the things you buy is so 20th century

Even money is virtual. Our lives are virtual too!
dekline
Member
(08-05-2012, 08:23 AM)
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Originally Posted by MrMister

Are you all making a mountain out of this still?

Planets bro they're making planets.
JaseC
Member
(08-05-2012, 08:24 AM)
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Originally Posted by Vane_MagicCity

You know how everyone seems to believe that if Steam goes under, they will remove the DRM?

What some don't seem to realise is that quote was from before Steam began selling third-party titles. I don't doubt that Valve would remove the Steam leash from its games should the company go under, but the matter of the remaining games would be something left up to their respective publishers.
Last edited by JaseC; 08-05-2012 at 08:27 AM.
OmegaZero
Member
(08-05-2012, 08:24 AM)
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"We can permanently deactivate your account...


...for you."
GoofsterStud
Member
(08-05-2012, 08:25 AM)
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Originally Posted by Viewtify

How many people were actually planning to sue Valve anyway?

People who believe Steam will remove DRM make me laugh. Securom say hi. Now you just have two forms of DRM, grats.
Ken
Member
(08-05-2012, 08:26 AM)
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All they need to do now is to release a Steam Subscriber Agreement allowing them to deactivate one's account to tell who does and doesn't read those things.
You Are Viewtiful
Member
(08-05-2012, 08:27 AM)
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I hope the state of terrible consumer rights in the US doesn't mean I have to listen to half the crap on that ToS as a Canadian. :<
Vaporak
Member
(08-05-2012, 08:27 AM)
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Originally Posted by xXxDudeBro420xXx

Absolutely unacceptable.

Valve needs to make right on this.

No Valve doesn't, the legal system needs to. I'm pretty sure this doesn't fly in the EU, but the US isn't so pro consumer.
Arksy
Member
(08-05-2012, 08:28 AM)
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Most EULAs state that they're only applicable to the extent the local laws of the user allows (it would be that case even if it didn't say so). To what extent do you think the Subscriber Agreement is valid? I picked up on 7 different areas that would be completely invalid under Australian law. I don't know American consumer law so I can't really comment but if these terms were valid under local law then you guys have some serious reforming to do.
Kokonoe
Member
(08-05-2012, 08:28 AM)
Ridiculous. I can understand possibly the not letting you play online or whichever, but taking away the games you purchased isn't right.
Grinchy
Member
(08-05-2012, 08:28 AM)
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A service with millions of customers wants to protect itself. Where did I put my pitchfork?
Tallshortman
Member
(08-05-2012, 08:28 AM)
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hey remember how monopolies were good?

As echoed before, I'd love a legal expert's opinion on this situation. Even if we are paying just for the license to play, they're essentially changing the terms of the original agreement and threatening to cut off paid for products unless the other party agrees to the new terms.
IrishNinja
(08-05-2012, 08:30 AM)
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not that i necessarily agree with all this, but...aren't we talking about a legal measure nearly every other online service offers, and a common response to asking the very same question of their respective TOS's?

Originally Posted by Wario64

So we're not really owning our digital games? I quit gaming.

good fuckin' riddance, amirite

please keep us up to date on bombas, i follow your twitter <3

Originally Posted by Vane_MagicCity

You know how everyone seems to believe that if Steam goes under, they will remove the DRM?

How about now? They can't even do it for the few people who disagree with the updated agreement.

realistically, no one should believe this, though. it's not in any way feasible.
Last edited by IrishNinja; 08-05-2012 at 08:33 AM.
Vane_MagicCity
Banned
(08-05-2012, 08:30 AM)

Originally Posted by JaseC

What some don't seen to realise is that quote was from before Steam began selling third-party titles. I don't doubt that Valve would remove the Steam leash from its games should the company go under, but the matter of the remaining games would be something left up to their respective publishers.

...and there is no way most publishers are going to let Steam release DRM free copies of their games. Ah, but too many people still say "well if Steam goes under Valve has promised us that we won't lose our games".

I do wonder though if it's legal for them to take your games away because you don't agree to UA change. Wouldn't it make more sense that this policy doesn't apply to games bought before before this UA? If you object, couldn't they let you keep your account but not be able to buy more games?
GoofsterStud
Member
(08-05-2012, 08:30 AM)
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Originally Posted by Tallshortman

hey remember how monopolies were good?

As echoed before, I'd love a legal expert's opinion on this situation. Even if we are paying just for the license to play, they're essentially changing the terms of the original agreement and threatening to cut off paid for products unless the other party agrees to the new terms.

Except they don't even have to provide the service to do it, keeping the license you cant access that you never used to themselves.

Originally Posted by Vane_MagicCity

"well if Steam goes under Valve has promised us that we won't lose our games".

Do people still believe this? They'll just change the terms on you, where you can't accept and thus can never play your games or use your license in the future, like they are doing to those who say no now.

ROFLOL
Xilium
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(08-05-2012, 08:30 AM)
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Originally Posted by Crayons

I stand corrected. However this doesn't really change anything, the people in a class action lawsuit don't get anything, it's all given to the lawyers. Valve was just protecting themselves as a company.

I'm not a expert in the subject but I think class action lawsuits are less about getting large sums of money for the individual victims/plaintiffs and more about forcing companies to pay a significant amount of money in damages to cover everyone in the suit that would otherwise be a drop-in-the-bucket if it were just a single person/handful of people.
VALIS
Finally I have 40 cakes
But it cost me 40 friends
(08-05-2012, 08:30 AM)
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Originally Posted by Vane_MagicCity

You know how everyone seems to believe that if Steam goes under, they will remove the DRM?

How about now? They can't even do it for the few people who disagree with the updated agreement.

Bingo. You don't buy games on Steam (or other DD marketplaces*). You buy licenses to use them on the platform for an unspecified amount of time. It should make anyone just a tiny bit paranoid.


*except GOG. GOG are the fuckin' champs.
Vandiger
Member
(08-05-2012, 08:31 AM)
Dark times ahead for the US consumer, doubt it will get better.
Cameron122
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(08-05-2012, 08:31 AM)
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I mean, Valve's recent legal loophole shenanigans has not deterred me from using their service in the least...But I'd like to know how it is legal.
Xanathus
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(08-05-2012, 08:31 AM)
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Steam: "Nice library of games you have there, shame if something happened to it."

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