[i-Lo]

There is definitely a case for cognitive dissonance here.

[speculawyer]

some people are just born religious, been going to church since they were like 1 years old.

No one is born religious. But yeah, indoctrination is a powerful thing.

[SolKane]

I can't understand this kind of hatred, particularly toward your own child. Some people are just fucked.

[Mudkips]

He writes like my dad. By which I mean, I think he's left handed.

[CrankyJay]

=(

I hope the son has a wonderful rest of his life. What an awful letter.

[lenovox1]

It's always the same with these kind of threads on GAF. Lately, it's just been annoying..people don't even have civilized conversations anymore, it's just personal attacks where people rage furiously trying to convince each other of their own opinion but in the end most people aren't open minded and won't respect the other parties' opinion.

It's shocking to me that someone can't understand why people take things like this personally. There was a kid in the county I grew up in that got beat up by his father and some of his parishioners in the parking lot of their church because he brought home a boyfriend.

I'm not trying to be angry with you, but it should be clear as to why the language can get a bit heated.

[JiuJitsuka]

Well, look at the standard I mentioned above. Would you write Christmas Cards addressed to both of them as a couple? Would you invite both to stay in your home on visits? When you say you "don't approve" but you love your SON what are you actually saying in a practical sense? How will that affect not your relationship with a son, but with the partner you disapprove of?

Well yea, that's a good point. How you'd treat the partner, not your son. I guess if the father would have enough courage, he'd simply invite both.

[Salvor.Hardin]

Heterosexual sex involves penises, too, dude. What are you implying?

Exactly. Regardless of what kind of porn you watch, you're staring at a stranger's dick. And it's not like that dick is an out-of-the-pizza-box surprise. You consciously subject yourself to staring a long hard thrusting cock. Then I assume you masturbate - masturbate to a strange man getting off inside a girl.

If you're this person, then you're being an awful hypocrite when you criticize homosexuality. If you masturbate to non-lesbian porn even once a week, you see at least 52 dicks in a year. That's more dicks than a gay porn star has to look at in at least 3 years of work.

[V_Arnold]

It must be heartbreaking. I can hardly imagine the pressure a gay man or women feels before coming out. Let alone living it... -.-

The reaction from the father, though...remind me again, what commands you to not "love thy neighbours?" What stops you from loving those around you who do not uphold themselves to the same standards that you do? I just do not get this one.

[Gaborn]

Well yea, that's a good point. How you'd treat the partner, not your son. I guess if the father would have enough courage, he'd simply invite both.

So, again, how would YOU react with them?

[TheChewyWaffles]

You say you're not supposed to harm anyone mentally or emotionally, so please introduce me to the child who wouldn't end up just a little bit scarred from his father telling him that while of course I still love you, gee I sure would have preferred if you just could've been born someone else? Edit: initial post way less respectful than it should have been. Edited with apologies.

If you're referencing back to my original statement, let me just say that it was a sentence or two paraphrase of a longer conversation that I imagine would happen between my son and I were he to give me that news. I will probably not say things in those words. Honestly I'm not sure how I would phrase things, I just know that he will know at the end of it that I love him.

I think some of you honestly just don't want me to give a shit at all. Like if he says "hey dad I'm gay" then I'm supposed to feel nothing, shrug, and say "Hey that's cool, what's for dinner?" I suppose that's one way of handling it. I believe, knowing him at his current age, that if he worked up the courage to tell me then he would want to hear more reassuring words from me.

[OriginofHysteria]

Well, look at the standard I mentioned above. Would you write Christmas Cards addressed to both of them as a couple? Would you invite both to stay in your home on visits? When you say you "don't approve" but you love your SON what are you actually saying in a practical sense? How will that affect not your relationship with a son, but with the partner you disapprove of?

Approve or disapprove, the partner is now part of the family and should be treated as such. With that, I would invite said person along with my son over and still treat them the same as if they were a heterosexual couple.

[bud]

"son, you are gay, and that is a damn shame. don't ever contact me again.

it'd be cool if you came to my funeral, though. but if you don't want to, everyone would understand.

but please come to my funeral.

please."

[DECK'ARD]

Just because you believe something on a theoretical or academic level, i.e. - preferring your child to be a heterosexual - does not mean you would actually regret having your kid be gay once they are born and already exist as a homosexual. You hear stuff like this all the time from parents of all sorts. Would have preferred a boy/girl/etc. Doesn't mean anything negative about the kid or the parent if it didn't play out that way.

Of course they can, but when someone is under the belief that their child 'wants to be gay' or is 'choosing to be gay' then it probably isn't going to end well. Or not without a lot of hurt being caused first.

Rather different from wanting a boy over a girl, as it sets up a love the child but hate their 'decision'. They will think they are still loving the child, but the child will see it very different as the only decision was to be themselves.

[i-Lo]

He writes like my dad. By which I mean, I think he's left handed.

How did you deduce that?

[ReBurn]

Exactly. Regardless of what kind of porn you watch, you're staring at a stranger's dick. And it's not like that dick is an out-of-the-pizza-box surprise. You consciously subject yourself to staring a long hard thrusting cock. Then I assume you masturbate - masturbate to a strange man getting off inside a girl. If you're this person, then you're being an awful hypocrite when you criticize homosexuality. If you masturbate to non-lesbian porn even once a week, you see at least 52 dicks in a year. That's more dicks than a gay porn star has to look at in at least 3 years of work.

So are you saying that if you've ever seen a penis that isn't your own that you're gay? I don't get what your schtick is about here. Please elaborate.

[JeTmAn81]

Exactly. Regardless of what kind of porn you watch, you're staring at a stranger's dick. And it's not like that dick is an out-of-the-pizza-box surprise. You consciously subject yourself to staring a long hard thrusting cock. Then I assume you masturbate - masturbate to a strange man getting off inside a girl. If you're this person, then you're being an awful hypocrite when you criticize homosexuality. If you masturbate to non-lesbian porn even once a week, you see at least 52 dicks in a year. That's more dicks than a gay porn star has to look at in at least 3 years of work.

So according to you, looking at a screen with penises on it is what makes you gay. Interesting.

[TheKaeptain]

That I personally do not approve. Shrug. My intent was not to get this drawn into a debate about my personal preferences. I have not faced the situations you described (my son is 4 ffs) so I do not know how I would react to all of them - what I do know is that I would never write a letter like that father did.

If he does just do what you're supposed to do as a parent. Love and support him. Just like I will do if my son is gay and decides to come out to me. We are parents. It's our job to let them know that everything will be okay and that no matter how much life knocks them down we as parents will be there for them until we die.

[JiuJitsuka]

So, again, how would YOU react with them?

haha I don't really know how my personal preferences and what would choices are relevant here. but hypothetically if I were in that case, I'd invite both. I don't want to lose my son.

[Perspicacity]

How would you feel if your father told you they didn't "approve" of you dating someone from another race?

Just wanted to quote this for another page as I think it's the best illustration of why "disapproval" is wrong.
Many of the same points are even used to defend this idea as well "wanting the grandkids to look like us", "not wanting to be singled out for being different", etc.

And for the record I don't think people who would say that they don't approve while still loving the child are bad people, but I do believe that they are woefully misguided and naive to the effects of that statement.

[ronito]

As a father I cannot fathom my kids doing anything short of murder or something highly illegal that would cause me to disown them. What a terrible person.

[Salvor.Hardin]

So are you saying that if you've ever seen a penis that isn't your own that you're gay? I don't get what your schtick is about here. Please elaborate.

No of course it doesn't mean that you're gay. But it clearly means that you don't mind looking at dicks.

[Gaborn]

Approve or disapprove, the partner is now part of the family and should be treated as such. With that, I would invite said person along with my son over and still treat them the same as if they were a heterosexual couple.

Excellent. And THAT I think is the only decent answer. I'm sure a lot of parents have disapproved personally with a lot of choices of partner people have made over the years male or female and for a variety of reasons. That doesn't mean most parents cut people off. Yet it's like pulling teeth to get some people to actually say it when it comes to gay couples.

JiuJitsuka - You made it relevant when you were avoiding the question earlier and defending someone who "disapproved" without explaining what it meant.

[ReBurn]

No of course it doesn't mean that you're gay. But it clearly means that you don't mind looking at dicks.

Ok, that makes sense I guess.

[GungHo]

As a father I cannot fathom my kids doing anything short of murder or something highly illegal that would cause me to disown them. What a terrible person.

Even then... they're still your babies.

[Emerson]

Of course they can, but when someone is under the belief that their child 'wants to be gay' or is 'choosing to be gay' then it probably isn't going to end well. Or not without a lot of hurt being caused first. Rather different from wanting a boy over a girl, as it sets up a love the child but hate their 'decision'. They will think they are still loving the child, but the child will see it very different as the only decision was to be themselves.

Sure, but the concept of believing it's a choice to be gay is one I didn't introduce to this discussion and it adds a whole level of idiocy that I'm certainly not going to defend. I'm by no means defending the guy who wrote this letter.

[OriginofHysteria]

If he does just do what you're supposed to do as a parent. Love and support him. Just like I will do if my son is gay and decides to come out to me. We are parents. It's our job to let them know that everything will be okay and that no matter how much life knocks them down we as parents will be there for them until we die.

That's exactly how you're supposed to act, but some people will act in that manner but deep down will have a negative feeling (slight or large) towards it. I think that's how the person you quoted wanted it to come across. Apologies if I'm wrong.

[TheChewyWaffles]

If he does just do what you're supposed to do as a parent. Love and support him. Just like I will do if my son is gay and decides to come out to me. We are parents. It's our job to let them know that everything will be okay and that no matter how much life knocks them down we as parents will be there for them until we die.

See, here's the part in the conversation where someone will bold the words I just did and say something like "why do you need to tell them that? Why isn't it ok already?" And the conversation is off on a wild tangent because they want to tear the words out of context. I really wish that would stop.

Edit: Just like thatbox did to me below. Yah, I'm out.

[JB1981]

Yes, of course you can. 99% of people would prefer their children be heterosexual for a number of reasons, including: 1) Not having to face the bullying and ridicule, which obviously should not exist but still do 2) Wanting to have natural grandchildren, a (arguably selfish) thing most people desire; and while adoption is a great thing, most people would still prefer to have their own natural children with their partner and not a donor It's just about being honest enough with yourself to admit you have a preference and not being such an extremist that when somebody admits they have a preference you don't insist they're a bigot or hateful. Personally I'm willing to believe you'd love your kid no matter what. But then I actually read what people say and don't automatically assume the worst about them.

Wait you think procreation is selfish ?

[DJMicLuv]

"No present exchanges will be accepted."

I would have written "You can send me presents, that's cool, just don't expect any presents from me!"

That way there's a chance that I'd get presents. The way Dad wrote this means he won't get any presents from his gay son anymore. That's foolish. Everyone wants presents even if they're from a son whose lifestyle choices they have rejected in an overly aggressive manner.

The man is not only a heartless brute but he's also a fool to himself.

The only son I'd disown was one who posted on GAF. I wouldn't tolerate a filthy GAFfer in my house.

[kamorra]

Ok, that makes sense I guess.

It really doesn't.

[Emerson]

Wait you think procreation is selfish ?

No I don't, I was allowing for the possibility that somebody else would make an argument along these lines:

While it's natural to want offspring or descendants of your own, it's selfish to want to put that desire before the needs of your children (i.e. being gay).

It's an argument I wouldn't agree or disagree with, which is why I said (arguably selfish) in the first place.

[DECK'ARD]

So according to you, looking at a screen with penises on it is what makes you gay. Interesting.

I wonder what the rate of conversion is to the same penis lots of times?

Meatspin could have made loads of people gay.

[ReBurn]

Excellent. And THAT I think is the only decent answer. I'm sure a lot of parents have disapproved personally with a lot of choices of partner people have made over the years male or female and for a variety of reasons. That doesn't mean most parents cut people off. Yet it's like pulling teeth to get some people to actually say it when it comes to gay couples.

My dad kicked me out of the family because he didn't approve of the woman I married. My wife wouldn't put up with snark from my mom, and I stood up to him over it. We were out of the family for like 3 years until he finally realized he was being stupid and changed his mind.

A lot of parents cut their kids off because of whatever they decide to not approve of. I don't know how someone who is gay feels about it or if it is worse, but it hurts no matter what it is over.

It really doesn't.

Yeah, I know. But I figured that train was already off the rails.

[PhoenixPause]

No one is born religious.

Unless you're a Jehova's Witness

[NomarTyme]

Fuck him. You do not need anybody approval.

[jgminto]

I feel the worst part was "If you choose not to attend my funeral, my friends and family will understand." That must have really hurt. They're his family as well.

[soepje]

Do you watch porn? If you do, you've already seen more cock than 99% of human beings ever. The day you stop watching random Californian bro cocks is the day you can have that preference.

So porn viewers are the 1%?

I guess playing football makes you gay too b/c they shower in groups sometimes :O.

[AlexMogil]

Do you watch porn? If you do, you've already seen more cock than 99% of human beings ever. The day you stop watching random Californian bro cocks is the day you can have that preference.

50%

[ivysaur12]

Don't shit up the thread. He was making a comment about how the father could have handled it better.

I didn't realize "shit[ing] up the thread" is asking the same exact question that other people did.

Get bent. I can have preferences just like everyone else. I would still love my son if something like this occurred.

So asking you a question about your beliefs is somehow "having preferences"? I'm trying to tease an opinion out that intrigues me. I'm wondering if this comes from a place where you think that your son has a "preference" for being gay, that's all. But if you want to say "get bent", go ahead.

[DECK'ARD]

Sure, but the concept of believing it's a choice to be gay is one I didn't introduce to this discussion and it adds a whole level of idiocy that I'm certainly not going to defend. I'm by no means defending the guy who wrote this letter.

I know, didn't mean to suggest you had, but the dreaded wants to be gay is already in the thread when talking about the hypothetical situation.

I'm sure it won't be the last either.

[i-Lo]

So are you saying that if you've ever seen a penis that isn't your own that you're gay? I don't get what your schtick is about here. Please elaborate.

I think he means that watching porn where penises are an innate part of show (for most categories) does not create or drive sexual preferences. Home or Hetero, it's in the genes.

Exactly. Regardless of what kind of porn you watch, you're staring at a stranger's dick. And it's not like that dick is an out-of-the-pizza-box surprise. You consciously subject yourself to staring a long hard thrusting cock. Then I assume you masturbate - masturbate to a strange man getting off inside a girl. If you're this person, then you're being an awful hypocrite when you criticize homosexuality. If you masturbate to non-lesbian porn even once a week, you see at least 52 dicks in a year. That's more dicks than a gay porn star has to look at in at least 3 years of work.

I get what you mean. Sex is part empathy and part taking pleasure. By the same token watching, for eg a blowjob vid, people would think of the girl's tongue work and fantasize how it'd feel. By working it backward you'd almost empathize with her ending up in essence giving yourself a blowjob. However, you have to remember the vagina in this picture. There is the penis that goes in the vagina and the other womanly bits that hetero sexual men get off on (in general). Replace her with a man and the whole perception changes blowing fuses within the conservative heterosexuals wound up too tightly due to years of indoctrination.

[Gaborn]

My dad kicked me out of the family because he didn't approve of the woman I married. My wife wouldn't put up with snark from my mom, and I stood up to him over it. We were out of the family for like 3 years until he finally realized he was being stupid and changed his mind. A lot of parents cut their kids off because of whatever they decide to not approve of. I don't know how someone who is gay feels about it or if it is worse, but it hurts no matter what it is over.

:( that's really sad man, I'm sorry to hear it. It definitely does happen in a variety of situations, I just think it's more common with gays than any other single reason statistically.

[MyAbsolution]

If you're referencing back to my original statement, let me just say that it was a sentence or two paraphrase of a longer conversation that I imagine would happen between my son and I were he to give me that news. I will probably not say things in those words. Honestly I'm not sure how I would phrase things, I just know that he will know at the end of it that I love him. I think some of you honestly just don't want me to give a shit at all. Like if he says "hey dad I'm gay" then I'm supposed to feel nothing, shrug, and say "Hey that's cool, what's for dinner?" I suppose that's one way of handling it. I believe, knowing him at his current age, that if he worked up the courage to tell me then he would want to hear more reassuring words from me.

Im gunna reference back to your original post that you "dont approve but still love".

While im sure you are right, most parents want some form of preference when having kids; want them to be smart, boy/girl, get a good job, marry someone nice... but ultimately dont you have to accept that they are an individual and whatever makes them happy you should accept and approve regardless?

Lets say your son wanted to become a ballet dancer or an artist because it made him happy. Would you tell him you didn't approve but still love him anyways? Isn't unconditional love supposed to be just that. It isn't your life, or yours to control, so wouldn't you think the best thing for them to hear is that you accept and support them?

"I love you still, but i dont approve" would feel like the most backhanded form of support ever. If my father said that to me, I would feel like utter shit (thank god he didnt).

[Rentahamster]

What a terrible father...

Hopefully they can reconcile someday.

[Mudkips]

How did you deduce that?

Because it looks like my dad's writing and my dad is left handed.
Similar slant, spacing, mix of capitals and lower case, mix of printing and cursive, and the wide margin on the left of the sheet and minimal margin on the right of the page (and going by the image dimensions it's probably a regular 8.5 x 11 sheet, so no weird cropping going on).

Also I could tell by some of the pixels.

[Owl]

Wow, as a Christian, even I would not react that way. Disowning your child is the cruelest thing anyone could ever do, and it's certainly not going to help the situation. No one should ever say something like this to their child.

[Aselith]

Do you watch porn? If you do, you've already seen more cock than 99% of human beings ever. The day you stop watching random Californian bro cocks is the day you can have that preference.

Well that....doesn't make any fucking sense. lol. The fuck?

[commedieu]

Again, I will face those things like every other human being - when they come into my life. I'm sure that by the time my son understands his sexuality I will have thought through these things. As a matter of fact, letters like the one in the OP help me think them through so for that I'm thankful for them. Do tell.

Its unfortunate that you can't see how your preference, and that alone, causes situations like this. But note that a poster said that hes afraid of coming out to his parents. People are aware of the desires of their parents. Thats what your preference does, makes your loved one afraid of telling you the truth, in fear of your judgment. Sure, keep it to yourself, and never let your children know who you'd rather have them love, I think thats fine if its what you're doing. But why voice it, if its just a mental preference, and not one your child will be aware of.

Will you let them know your preference for them.

[Seguin]

yea guys but imagine how hard it was on the dad to disown his son! that must have been heart breaking