[Eric_S]

You do realize there are plenty of women who are MRA's right?

You mean feminists?

[Ein Soph Aur]

You mean feminists?

No

Modern feminism is far from being a movement for true gender equality.

I think that MRM and feminism should work together in order achieve that goal.

[cutmeamango]

No one wants equality because equality is boring.

[Greenhowse]

No Modern feminism is far from being a movement for true gender equality. I think that MRM and feminism should work together in order achieve that goal.

What do you think modern feminism is about?

[Mumei]

No Modern feminism is far from being a movement for true gender equality. I think that MRM and feminism should work together in order achieve that goal.

While you answer Pommy Dragon's question, as I too am curious as to what you will say, I would also like to know how you reconcile the Men's Rights Movement's deep antipathy to the feminist movement's accomplishments with your idea of them being able to work together.

[CHEEZMO™]

What do the guys over at r/MRA (or whatever it is) think of Pigman?

[Ein Soph Aur]

What do you think modern feminism is about?

This would be akin to what my views are

http://www.reddit.com/r/LadyMRAs/com...p_on_feminism/

[Mumei]

This would be akin to what my views are http://www.reddit.com/r/LadyMRAs/com...p_on_feminism/

I was hoping you could explain your views more explicitly, or at the very least quote relevant sections and then expound upon your thoughts on these sections.

It is difficult to have a conversation with a reddit thread.

[Charoncaori]

People inevitably end up behind a wheel after a couple drinks, and when they discover that they do not become some unstoppable death machine that runs over babies, they begin to rethink all the scare stories they've been told. They see plenty of responsible people go out, have a few, and make it home without incident. The reality of it does not match up to the tales, so they feel like people have been crying wolf and all that. Over-exaggerating your case ultimately undermines it. I said nothing of the statistics, though I don't think statistics are much of a deterrent for risky behavior, particularly in young people. Plenty of awful statistics about smoking, 2 servings of alcohol will put any girl under 120 lbs over the limit in the USA (.08). So if you go on a date with a girl you should apparently start taking her keys away from her and calling a cab if she has a second glass of wine. 3 servings of alcohol will put any guy under 140 lbs over the limit. Problem is it can be hard to work out how much you've had because alcohol content in beer can vary, bartenders can pour stronger, and wine glasses can be filled up more than they should for a single serving. Not that it's an excuse, but that's how even well-meaning people get themselves into trouble. Some European countries put the limit at .05, which means that pretty much everyone under 200lbs is going to be legally drunk after 2-2 1/2 drinks.

I'm sorry, but how fucking difficult is it to wait an hour before driving after having those 2 drinks?

Driving drunk is inexcusable. Get a chaperone or space your drinks so you aren't drunk when you have to drive home. It's not hard. If you are going out for a night of just getting drunk, don't fucking plan on driving home. Is this so socially unacceptable to ask of someone?

[Greenhowse]

This would be akin to what my views are http://www.reddit.com/r/LadyMRAs/com...p_on_feminism/

...that was just bad psychologizing.

This person didn't say anything about what modern feminism was about. The only things he (she? this appears to be a MRA channel for Ladies too I guess?) could mention as problems with feminism involved "brats" taking over the message of feminism and threatening the movement as a whole.

Basically, the idea is that a significant part of the solution of eliminating the toxic presence of "brats" in feminism is the presence of Men's Rights: that is the only way the message of equality is given legitimacy. As such, women need to take up the mantle of Men's Rights in order to achieve this legitimacy.

A discourse on gender equality certainly involves how women and men relate equally. This doesn't necessitate a "complementary" movement that ensures the other group doesn't perceivably supersede them.

And I can't get past the "brats" thing, and the battle for the soul of feminism...how asinine is that? That a social justice movement will lose traction and progress because an unverifiable quantity of its members are too annoying?

[cutmeamango]

And I can't get past the "brats" thing, and the battle for the soul of feminism...how asinine is that? That a social justice movement will lose traction and progress because an unverifiable quantity of its members are too annoying?

Marxism lost steam because they dressed poorly. No one likes to be associated with poor dressers.

[UrbanRats]

The best way to equality is having to groups who hate each other? That'll work out.

[travisbickle]

...that was just bad psychologizing. This person didn't say anything about what modern feminism was about. The only things he (she? this appears to be a MRA channel for Ladies too I guess?) could mention as problems with feminism involved "brats" taking over the message of feminism and threatening the movement as a whole. Basically, the idea is that a significant part of the solution of eliminating the toxic presence of "brats" in feminism is the presence of Men's Rights: that is the only way the message of equality is given legitimacy. As such, women need to take up the mantle of Men's Rights in order to achieve this legitimacy. A discourse on gender equality certainly involves how women and men relate equally. This doesn't necessitate a "complementary" movement that ensures the other group doesn't perceivably supersede them. And I can't get past the "brats" thing, and the battle for the soul of feminism...how asinine is that? That a social justice movement will lose traction and progress because an unverifiable quantity of its members are too annoying?

Welcome to the internet. This should be number one on "unhealthy mentalities the internet propagates".

Usually goes along the lines of "well people would be against the rape of women in African countries by child soldiers, but the way those protestors dressed is just going to make people be for the rape of women in African countries by child soldiers."

[Emerson]

.

[border]

Are you really going to hang your hat on "some people might find their anecdotal experience differs from the strongest message they were ever told by authority figures so FUCK YOUR FASCIST 'STATISTICS'" here? Really?

Except that you've made a straw man here. Somebody else brought up statistics. I just said it's dangerous to hyperbolize, because the entire message gets thrown out the window when people observe that the most compelling part of it was clearly exaggerated. I don't think this causes people to stop believing statistics, it just further causes them to disregard statistics.

In a lot of situations, I don't think statistics hold a lot of sway with people's decision-making or risk assessment. They don't stop people from being terrified of their plane crashing, even though car travel is far more risky. They don't stop teens from taking up smoking. They don't stop people from having unprotected sex. They don't stop people from becoming obese (or worse, making their children obese).

Risk assessment is largely personal. "What are the odds that this risky behavior is going to negatively impact me?" For most people the odds of them getting a DUI or hurting someone/something are relatively low after 3-4 drinks. A statistic like "100,000 people die every year in alcohol related accidents" doesn't really have a personal impact.

[Jado]

I think it's strange that some of you find the entire concept of "men's rights" entirely invalid because of extreme elements from within that distract from actual problems affecting boys and men (e.g. the sexist, media-wide depiction of men as idiots). Most accept feminism as a valid movement, despite the fact that it too has unpleasant, extreme groups and elements. I could pull up just as many awful links of feminists as is being done on MRA.

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

Someone needs to add people who think sex with children needs to be accepted as a personal choice of consenting individuals or that well she's 15 I'm not a pedophile, I'm a eu...whatever the fuck term they want to be called and I'm being victimized. That whole subgrouping of human garbage.

[Htown]

Someone needs to add people who think sex with children needs to be accepted as a personal choice of consenting individuals or that well she's 15 I'm not a pedophile, I'm a eu...whatever the fuck term they want to be called and I'm being victimized. That whole subgrouping of human garbage.

you saw the bowling rapist thread, too?

[cutmeamango]

Pedophilia is one thing, ephebophilia another and they have no connection to age of consent as for their definitions.

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

you saw the bowling rapist thread, too?

Yes, I did. It's one that I've seen almost exclusively on the Internet, no one actually says stuff like in public except for weirdos trying to paint themseleves as victims.

Pedophilia is one thing, ephebophilia another and they have no connection to age of consent as for their definitions.

They're both awful and 35 year who wants to bang a 15 year old is as bad as meth witch banged 3 year old.

[coldvein]

They're both awful and 35 year who wants to bang a 15 year old is as bad as meth witch banged 3 year old.

i'm not exactly sure what that sentence says, but you really think wanting to bang a 15 year old is as bad as wanting to bang a 3 year old? nahhhhhh manos.

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

i'm not exactly sure what that sentence says, but you really think wanting to bang a 15 year old is as bad as wanting to bang a 3 year old? nahhhhhh manos.

They're both scum.

[Air Zombie Meat]

But what have meth witches got to do with it?

[coldvein]

They're both scum.

plenty of 15 year old girls are sexually mature. it's in the male humans makeup to want to bang sexually mature females. that's just how it is.

3 year olds is a totally different thing.

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

But what have meth witches got to do with it?

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=486401

There is no good or bad, just bad in the two proffered examples.

[charlequin]

That a social justice movement will lose traction and progress because an unverifiable quantity of its members are too annoying?

I like how the essay linked to here specifically involves taking common, well-documented interpersonal misogynist attacks (the "hysterical"/"crazy" woman, the greedy harpy, the "shrill" woman, the importance of talking about "real" issues that affect men instead of unimportant ones that affect women) and applying them to the movement as a whole.

I think it's strange that some of you find the entire concept of "men's rights" entirely invalid because of extreme elements from within that distract from actual problems affecting boys and men (e.g. the sexist, media-wide depiction of men as idiots).

The problems that affect men are very real, they just arise directly out of a society that enforces toxic gender roles on people of both genders. Feminism's goal of deconstructing and wearing down these gender roles works directly to combat this problem (and in fact, men as a category hve already benefitted immensely from the feminist movement.) The MRA's underlying philosophy will just make things worse.

You do realize there are plenty of women who are MRA's right?

Oh, for the :lol smiley of yore.

[charlequin]

I just said it's dangerous to hyperbolize

Except that... it's actually not. Total alcohol-related vehicular fatalities in the US have been dropping steadily every year since 1982, both in raw numbers and as a proportion of all vehicular fatalities. That's because the approach we're taking as a society actually works. Far from convincing people that the whole thing is bullshit, the strong messaging, low tolerance, and societal shunning of violators mostly convinces people that if they don't trust their own judgment enough to know when they can safely drive, they should err on the side of caution.

In a lot of situations, I don't think statistics hold a lot of sway with people's decision-making or risk assessment.

Yes, but they should. People should look at the drunk driving statistics and realize just what a bad fucking idea it is; they should see statistics about how much alcohol reduces your reaction time and understand how that can impair their ability to drive.

It is precisely the fact that people don't actually think this way that means we have to use strong, concrete messaging to deliver the same message -- which is exactly what makes your position here so ridiculous.

[OpinionatedCyborg]

Ah yes, MRA. For some reason, this image of predominantly fat underachieving men with socialization and hygene problems that moan about how women don't hit on their big hunka lovin' selves gets conjured up.

lol they're a bunch of wimps who channel their impotence (a word that describes them on so many levels) in aggressive, hate-filled messageboards and websites. truly pathetic.

keep posting more sammples plz

[Jado]

The problems that affect men are very real, they just arise directly out of a society that enforces toxic gender roles on people of both genders. Feminism's goal of deconstructing and wearing down these gender roles works directly to combat this problem (and in fact, men as a category hve already benefitted immensely from the feminist movement.) The MRA's underlying philosophy will just make things worse.

Did you see my post on the prior page? Does feminism tackle the widespread depiction of men as idiots in television and movies? Or the pretty huge and growing disparities in college enrollment and degrees earned (as low as 30% male in some colleges)? Or the current and future trend of women earning more than men? The majority of suicides committed by men? I'm asking because I honestly don't know. Maybe it would help if feminism had a more inclusive name attached to it that didn't imply "women first," or if some of its supporters didn't insist that simply being a masculine individual is a negative thing. It's worth noting that the boys failing at school example I mentioned has little or nothing to do with socially constructed gender roles, but actual biological differences in how boys' learning differs from girls, and how school has changed since the 1980s in ways that don't help them.

[Devolution]

Did you see my post on the prior page? Does feminism tackle the widespread depiction of men as idiots in television and movies? Or the pretty huge and growing disparities in college enrollment and degrees earned (as low as 30% male in some colleges)? Or the current and future trend of women earning more than men? The majority of suicides committed by men? I'm asking because I honestly don't know. Maybe it would help if feminism had a more inclusive name attached to it that didn't imply "women first," or if some of its supporters didn't insist that simply being a masculine individual is a negative thing. It's worth noting that the boys failing at school example I mentioned has little or nothing to do with socially constructed gender roles, but actual biological differences in how boys' learning differs from girls, and how school has changed since the 1980s in ways that don't help them.

Why is it always feminism's job? Is it not legitimate until we focus on men? That kind of gets in the way of the point. Maybe if MRAs weren't too busy teetering on hate speech they could actually become feminists themselves and work towards issues regarding men.

[pelicansurf]

I thought this was a thread about bacon.

[pigeon]

Did you see my post on the prior page? Does feminism tackle the widespread depiction of men as idiots in television and movies? Or the pretty huge and growing disparities in college enrollment and degrees earned (as low as 30% male in some colleges)? Or the current and future trend of women earning more than men? The majority of suicides committed by men? I'm asking because I honestly don't know.

Yes. It does. Why do you think those things happen? Because of a patriarchal idea of what "manhood" is that explicitly includes being dumb as something you should aspire to. Believe me, feminists have an excellent understanding of that stereotype.

Maybe it would help if feminism had a more inclusive name attached to it that didn't imply "women first," or if some of its supporters didn't insist that simply being a masculine individual is a negative thing. It's worth noting that the boys failing at school example I mentioned has little or nothing to do with socially constructed gender roles, but actual biological differences in how boys' learning differs from girls, and how school has changed since the 1980s in ways that don't help them.

This paragraph cries out for all kinds of citations. Ideally ones I don't have to pay money to read.

[ClassyPenguin]

College enrollment has nothing to do with feminism or the differences of teaching methods based on sex(dunno what are those) but more to due with cultural aspects such as pressuring guys to do more sports stuff instead of intellectual stuff with the exception of hard sciences and engineering, those are pretty much boys only clubs.

[Devolution]

College enrollment has nothing to do with feminism or the differences of teaching methods based on sex(dunno what are those) but more to due with cultural aspects such as pressuring guys to do more sports stuff instead of intellectual stuff.

Teaching differences has been debunked plenty. It's the child of anti-feminists who say too much discipline in the classroom is bad for little boys and gives girls an edge. It's pretty insulting.

[Jado]

Why is it always feminism's job? Is it not legitimate until we focus on men? That kind of gets in the way of the point. Maybe if MRAs weren't too busy teetering on hate speech they could actually become feminists themselves and work towards issues regarding men.

I never said any of that. I asked if feminism addresses these issues, out of genuine curiosity, because charlequin mentioned that feminism has done a good deal to help men. The point I was actually making is that we could/should have an equivalent men's movement centered on positive improvement... much like feminism does for women. Apparently, some of you choose to equate this with misogyny and hate because of some unsavory persons in the current MRA movement.

[Devolution]

I never said any of that. I asked if feminism addresses these issues, out of genuine curiosity, because charlequin mentioned that feminism has done a good deal to help men. The point I was actually making is that we could/should have an equivalent men's movement centered on positive improvement... much like feminism does for women. Apparently, some of you choose to equate this with misogyny and hate because of some unsavory persons in the current MRA movement.

There currently is no feminist minded popular men's movement that doesn't dabble in misogyny or misinformation that I know of. I think the Good Men Project was it a couple years ago but they've since fallen into some awful rhetoric and points of view.

[Angry Fork]

militant atheists

This is healthy mentality though.

[Jado]

That's unfortunate then. Leonard Sax, who isn't anti-feminist in any form and has written his own literature on the issues facing girls, has done research in the proven ways that boys and girls differ when it comes to learning. Brain scans, for example, show different parts of the brain activating and studies demonstrated that boys take longer to learn basic reading and become discouraged and hateful of school for a lifetime when pressured to do so in pre-k and kindergarten.

Boys Adrift: The Five Factors Driving the Growing Epidemic of Unmotivated Boys and Underachieving Young Men
http://www.amazon.com/Boys-Adrift-Ep...dp/0465072100/

Why Boys Fail: Saving Our Sons from an Educational System That's Leaving Them Behind
http://www.amazon.com/Why-Boys-Fail-...dp/0814420176/

The Trouble with Boys: A Surprising Report Card on Our Sons, Their Problems at School, and What Parents and Educators Must Do
http://www.amazon.com/The-Trouble-Bo...dp/0307381293/

Regarding sports, most boys no longer dabble in any kind of healthy competition (team sports, debate club, group vs group classroom activities) and this is seen as one of many causes leading to lack of motivation in school.

[SquiddyCracker]

That's unfortunate then. Leonard Sax, who isn't anti-feminist in any form and has written his own literature on the issues facing girls, has done research in the proven ways that boys and girls differ when it comes to learning. Brain scans, for example, show different parts of the brain activating and studies demonstrated that boys take longer to learn basic reading and become discouraged and hateful of school for a lifetime when pressured to do so in pre-k and kindergarten. Boys Adrift: The Five Factors Driving the Growing Epidemic of Unmotivated Boys and Underachieving Young Men http://www.amazon.com/Boys-Adrift-Ep...dp/0465072100/ Why Boys Fail: Saving Our Sons from an Educational System That's Leaving Them Behind http://www.amazon.com/Why-Boys-Fail-...dp/0814420176/ The Trouble with Boys: A Surprising Report Card on Our Sons, Their Problems at School, and What Parents and Educators Must Do http://www.amazon.com/The-Trouble-Bo...dp/0307381293/ Regarding sports, most boys no longer dabble in any kind of healthy competition (team sports, debate club, group vs group classroom activities) and this is seen as one of many causes leading to lack of motivation in school.

I tried to find some studies on the differences in optimal learning environment for boys contra girls, but couldn't find anything in support of Sax's assessment.
A quick look at Wikipedia shows the following though:

His book "Boys Adrift" was criticized in a review by the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) in December 2007. According to the review, "Boys Adrift is at its strongest in providing practical advice to parents about how to increase their sons' academic motivation; how to set appropriate limits on video game use; and how to protect their sons from the potential harm of psychotropic medications and environmental estrogens. Boys Adrift is at its weakest in supporting the thesis that there is an epidemic of unmotivated and underachieving young men."

In general, you should ignore new claims by psychologists and psychiatrists unless you have at hand the research or study they're basing their claims on (and it supports them).

[Forceatowulf]

Gang stalking is the dumbest fucking bullshit I have probably ever seen in my life.

Are you fucking kidding me right now.

[ggnoobIGN]

Gang stalking is the dumbest fucking bullshit I have probably ever seen in my life. Are you fucking kidding me right now.

Meta gangstalk'd

[CornBurrito]

They're both awful and 35 year who wants to bang a 15 year old is as bad as meth witch banged 3 year old.

What about

16 year old and 15 year old?

17 year old and 15 year old?

18 year old and 15 year old?

[SquiddyCracker]

What about 16 year old and 15 year old? 17 year old and 15 year old? 18 year old and 15 year old?

19 year old and a 13 year old?

[jorma]

Why is it always feminism's job? Is it not legitimate until we focus on men? That kind of gets in the way of the point. Maybe if MRAs weren't too busy teetering on hate speech they could actually become feminists themselves and work towards issues regarding men.

as long as you want to pretend that feminism means "working for equality" rather than "promoting female issues" it IS always feminisms job.

especially when so many of the feminists go fucking mental whenever someone claims to be a humanist rather than a feminist.

[Gaborn]

as long as you want to pretend that feminism means "working for equality" rather than "promoting female issues" it IS always feminisms job. especially when so many of the feminists go fucking mental whenever someone claims to be a humanist rather than a feminist.

Can you define specifically what you mean by "female issues"?

[SquiddyCracker]

as long as you want to pretend that feminism means "working for equality" rather than "promoting female issues" it IS always feminisms job. especially when so many of the feminists go fucking mental whenever someone claims to be a humanist rather than a feminist.

Like others have already pointed out, feminists are already taking care of men's rights by fighting against gender stereotypes and the patriarchy.
What else can they do?

[jorma]

Can you define specifically what you mean by "female issues"?

All the issues where women feel that they are being given the short end of the stick. As opposed to the issues where men feel that they are being given the short end of the stick.

If feminism wants to claim it's an all compassing movement, both of these need to be adressed. "i don't care about boys being discriminated against in school because why should i have to focus on males?" is not a healthy attitude to have if you want to convince men that they should care about your issues.

[SquiddyCracker]

All the issues where women feel that they are being given the short end of the stick. As opposed to the issues where men feel that they are being given the short end of the stick. If feminism wants to claim it's an all compassing movement, both of these need to be adressed. "i don't care about boys being discriminated against in school because why should i have to focus on males?" is not a healthy attitude to have if you want to convince men that they should care about your issues.

Eh, I think it is more of a case of those "issues" being badly supported and not really being issues per se than people not caring about them.

Such as the "boys are being discriminated against in school"-issue.

[jorma]

Like others have already pointed out, feminists are already taking care of men's rights by fighting against gender stereotypes and the patriarchy. What else can they do?

The opposite of this is what they can do:
"Why is it always feminism's job? Is it not legitimate until we focus on men? That kind of gets in the way of the point. Maybe if MRAs weren't too busy teetering on hate speech they could actually become feminists themselves and work towards issues regarding men. "

I mean seriously. If this is the opinion of a "feminist" why would any man want to call himself that? I don't exactly feel that Devolution is "already taking care of men's rights".

[Lionheart1337]

Like others have already pointed out, feminists are already taking care of men's rights by fighting against gender stereotypes and the patriarchy. What else can they do?

Feminists are doing fuck all about many male specific issues, many of which have been mentioned already. The last time I saw feminists thinking about male circumcision it was in favor of it. It is clear though that feminist and MRAs have a completely different idea about what equality is. As Devolution said though, why does it have to be up to feminism? Enter MRM. Feminism is not a bi-gender movement, nor is MRA. The people who say otherwise are only saying so because they think that the issues both movements attempt to tackle effect the world (both sexes) positively.

When you subscribe to an ideology it's not long before you view the world only through the lens of it.