[Kazerei]

Those survey results are a red herring. The survey also includes options for identifying as "Hong Kong Chinese citizen" "Chinese Hong Kong citizen" "Hong Kong citizen" and "Chinese citizen." Besides, you can say you are not proud of America due to Guantanamo and Iraq, but still be patriotic.

Alright, just discount the survey, that's fine. But surely you have noticed that nationalist sentiment has fallen over the years.

While a patriotic American might say they are not proud of Guantanamo and Iraq, they wouldn't say they are not proud to be an American citizen.

I would call SCMP an international paper based in Hong Kong. I was talking about local papers like Ming Pao, Sing Tao, Apple Daily, Sing Pao, etc. You must have forgotten the second article: Edit: here's the BBC summing up HK papers: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-19279384

So was it just Sing Tao that hailed the activists as heroes? Aren't they known as being pro-Beijing? The other newspapers have pretty neutral responses. The WSJ blog seems to have exaggerated there.

Also, I should read more Chinese-language papers. My literacy level is like grade 3 or 4 :\

I already mentioned Leung Kwok-hung (aka Long Hair). He publicly burned the PRC flag--you can't get more anti-Communist than that. I don't work for the Falun Gong.

I can't take that guy seriously. But he is famous and does have his supporters, so I'll give you that.

So what organization do you work for exactly?

---

But anyways, where are we going with this. From my experience, nationalism is pretty low in Hong Kong, while there's plenty of dissatisfaction with the central government. So a group of Hong Kongers fighting for Chinese sovereignty seemed very weird. For starters, the article in the OP mentions the Hong Kong Action Committee for Defending the Diaoyu Islands has ~50 members. Basically a fringe group. And interestingly, one the articles mentioned this in that BBC summary says this:

Chinese society needs to understand that grass-roots activists for Diaoyu are being backed by the State. While there is no open official support of the activists landing on Diaoyu, that doesn't mean these activists are acting on their own. Their safe trip to Diaoyu, and eventual safe return, are both the result of China's national strength.

Do you see where I'm coming from now? A group of HKers, fighting for Chinese sovereignty? That's crazy, right? HK isn't known to be so nationalist.

That said, I can imagine HKers supporting China's claim to the islands over Japan, because we do identify as Chinese. If this dispute is sparking nationalist sentiment in HK, then I can understand that.

[numble]

Alright, just discount the survey, that's fine. But surely you have noticed that nationalist sentiment has fallen over the years. While a patriotic American might say they are not proud of Guantanamo and Iraq, they wouldn't say they are not proud to be an American citizen. So was it just Sing Tao that hailed the activists as heroes? Aren't they known as being pro-Beijing? The other newspapers have pretty neutral responses. The WSJ blog seems to have exaggerated there. Also, I should read more Chinese-language papers. My literacy level is like grade 3 or 4 :\ I can't take that guy seriously. But he is famous and does have his supporters, so I'll give you that. So what organization do you work for exactly? --- But anyways, where are we going with this. From my experience, nationalism is pretty low in Hong Kong, while there's plenty of dissatisfaction with the central government. So a group of Hong Kongers fighting for Chinese sovereignty seemed very weird. For starters, the article in the OP mentions the Hong Kong Action Committee for Defending the Diaoyu Islands has ~50 members. Basically a fringe group. And interestingly, one the articles mentioned this in that BBC summary says this: Do you see where I'm coming from now? A group of HKers, fighting for Chinese sovereignty? That's crazy, right? HK isn't known to be so nationalist. That said, I can imagine HKers supporting China's claim to the islands over Japan, because we do identify as Chinese. If this dispute is sparking nationalist sentiment in HK, then I can understand that.

Ming Pao is not considered Pro Beijing. Sing Tao seems to always support whoever is in central power--they supported the colonial British government after all.

Can you point me to the newspapers with neutral responses?

Your quote is from the Global Times, which is not a HK newspaper. It's a state-run China paper.

It's true that the Japanese government wouldn't fire on them and won't arrest them under Japanese law, because they don't want to anger China.

The activists had more direct support from the Taiwanese government, whose forces actually supplied the boat.

Hong Kong has a long history of nationalism with regard to the islands, dating back to the 70s. Look at my previous post. In 2010, an HKU poll found negative feelings toward the Japanese government because of the islands:
http://hkupop.hku.hk/english/release/release796.html

At the other front, affected by the Diaoyu Islands incident, Hong Kong people's negative feeling towards the Japanese government has also surged, giving a net feeling of negative 43 percentage points. People's feeling towards the people of Japan, however, has remained positive, at a net value of positive 20 percentage points.

http://biglychee.com/blog/2012/08/15...dness-du-jour/

This goes back to the 1970s (when the US transferred Okinawa back to the Tokyo authorities). For many of the older generation, it was their first political activism, which is probably one of the reasons feelings run so extraordinarily high about it. It is a rare issue that unites pro-Beijing and pan-democrat activists, just as it puts Mainland China and Taiwan on the same side. You might see ‘Long Hair’ Leung Kwok-hung on the pier next to some seedy businessman from the Democratic Alliance for the Betterment Etc of HK, with Communist and Nationalist flags both on display. By tradition, either someone drowns or the boat falls apart, or at least turns back for lack of insurance cover. Usually, the Hong Kong government keeps its head down; the official policy has been to prevent the activists from sailing if their vessel was unseaworthy. Colonial-era Chief Secretary Anson Chan referred to the rocky outcrops by their Japanese name and clearly found the expeditions a bit low-class. But our new Chief Executive CY Leung has been more positive and voiced concern for the brave ‘all at sea’ patriots, who find themselves in the unusual position of having something nice to say about him.

[numble]

The front page of Apple Daily, the paper considered most critical of the Communist Party and Pro-Democracy:
http://hk.nextmedia.com

"Central Chinese Government seeks Compromise with Japan: Diaoyu Defenders are Betrayed"

Basically they are accusing the Chinese government of de-escalating tensions after the activists were trying to stir up action.

[Kazerei]

Ming Pao is not considered Pro Beijing. Sing Tao seems to always support whoever is in central power--they supported the colonial British government after all. Can you point me to the newspapers with neutral responses?

Umm, I think we need to backtrack a bit.

Earlier in the thread you said "Have you seen the newspapers all over Hong Kong talking about the brave boatmen?" and linked to this WSJ article, which also says "Headlines lauded members of the Bao Diao II—or “Defend the Diaoyu II”—as brave heroes." But from the BBC news roundup it seems Sing Tao is the one HK newspaper with such a headline. Ming Pao's response is what I would consider neutral. So I'm not seeing much evidence of nationalism in HK newspapers, aside from Sing Tao, which is apparently pro-Beijing already.

Your quote is from the Global Times, which is not a HK newspaper. It's a state-run China paper.

Okay, backtracking again. In my original post in this thread, I (rather cynically) suggested the HK activists were set up, because HKers fighting for Chinese sovereignty is so weird. The quote from the Global Times suggests that the Action Committee for Defending the Diaoyu Islands is backed by the Chinese government. That's why I mentioned it.

I'm not really sure where you're going with the rest of this.

[numble]

Umm, I think we need to backtrack a bit. Earlier in the thread you said "Have you seen the newspapers all over Hong Kong talking about the brave boatmen?" and linked to this WSJ article, which also says "Headlines lauded members of the Bao Diao II—or “Defend the Diaoyu II”—as brave heroes." But from the BBC news roundup it seems Sing Tao is the one HK newspaper with such a headline. Ming Pao's response is what I would consider neutral. So I'm not seeing much evidence of nationalism in HK newspapers, aside from Sing Tao, which is apparently pro-Beijing already. Okay, backtracking again. In my original post in this thread, I (rather cynically) suggested the HK activists were set up, because HKers fighting for Chinese sovereignty is so weird. The quote from the Global Times suggests that the Action Committee for Defending the Diaoyu Islands is backed by the Chinese government. That's why I mentioned it. I'm not really sure where you're going with the rest of this.

Mingpao is not pro-Beijing, considered neutral, and they accused the Chinese government of obstructing too many Hong Kong attempts in the past. How the heck do you consider an editorial that tells the government they must take concrete action to end Japanese control of the islands neutral?

Ming Pao Daily News' editorial appeals for more "concrete action" to end Japan's control of the islands, as it criticises the Chinese, Hong Kong and Taiwanese governments for "obstructing" similar protests in recent years.

Mingpao says that they must end Japanese control and allow for more protests in the future. How is that neutral?

Apple Daily is probably the most anti-CCP paper out there, and today they're accusing the CCP of being weak, deescalating tensions with Japan instead of asserting sovereignty, and betraying the activists.

[Castor Krieg]

Apple Daily has killer vids on Youtube for all of their news, the shit about pseudomodels and the female narrator are the best.

[lastplayed]

Breaking News: Live update from Senkaku Island:

Kahn looks lonely.

[Tesseract]

can someone please tell me in simple words what this means? is all according to keikaku?

[numble]

Here's the Ming Pao editorial:
http://news.mingpao.com/20120816/mra.htm

The title:
"Take Concrete Actions to Strike/Break Up Japan's Practical Control of Diaoyu Islands"

Part of the editorial:

(After talking about how the activists evaded measures to stop them from landing) The Diaoyu Defenders successfully landed on the islands and diminished Japan's dignity/pride. Chinese all over the world and the Chinese and Taiwanese governments should thank them.

Very neutral.

[Kazerei]

Mingpao is not pro-Beijing, considered neutral, and they accused the Chinese government of obstructing too many Hong Kong attempts in the past. How the heck do you consider an editorial that tells the government they must take concrete action to end Japanese control of the islands neutral? Mingpao says that they must end Japanese control and allow for more protests in the future. How is that neutral? Apple Daily is probably the most anti-CCP paper out there, and today they're accusing the CCP of being weak, deescalating tensions with Japan instead of asserting sovereignty, and betraying the activists.

I meant more in terms of the reporting. Editorials are editorials. Apple Daily is Apple Daily.

G'night.

[numble]

I meant more in terms of the reporting. Editorials are editorials. Apple Daily is Apple Daily. G'night.

You were referring to the BBC's reference to a Ming Pao article, which is that very editorial.

But from the BBC news roundup it seems Sing Tao is the one HK newspaper with such a headline. Ming Pao's response is what I would consider neutral. So I'm not seeing much evidence of nationalism in HK newspapers, aside from Sing Tao, which is apparently pro-Beijing already.

Which newspaper are you claiming has been neutral?

[numble]

Here are the newspapers at Hong Kong 7-11s on Saturday:

Ming Pao:

7 Men Returning Home is Not a Success
The Central Government is Weak - We Promise to Return to the Islands

Apple Daily:

Brave/Courageous Heroes Triumphantly Return

Oriental Daily News:

Brave/Courageous Heroes Return Home

Ta Kung Pao:

Foreign Ministry Sternly Told Japan to Release Men Without Conditions
Diaoyu Defending Brave/Courageous Heroes Return

South China Morning Post:

Diaoyu Activists Defiant As They Return to Hong Kong

Sing Pao:

Scholar from HK Baptist University Reveals 16-Year Old File
Japanese Officials Openly Telling Lies
(This is some article about sovereignty over the islands)
http://www.singpao.com/jrtt/201208/t...18_379877.html

Wen Wei Pao:

Diaoyu Defending Brave/Courageous Heroes Triumphantly Return

The Sun:

EuroCup Kicks Off
Hong Kong Airline Blows Tire - Paralyzes Airport
(On the Right Side) Diaoyu Defending Brave/Courageous Heroes Triumphantly Return - Vow to Return and Assert Sovereign Rights

Sing Tao:

A huge ad

[Keikaku]

Between this and the whole Dokdo/Takeshima spat, Asian countries are doing their best to get in the news for seemingly irrelevant shit.

The Senkaku Keikaku

I do not endorse this buffoonery.

[tino]

In other news, China had semi organized anti Japan protect over the weekend in Xi'an (and a few other cities?)

[numble]

Japanese activists took their turn raising their flag on the islands:


Leading to massive anti-Japan protests in China:

Chengdu


Shenzhen (Japanese cars)

Apple Daily headline: Central Government is Weak - Fury Erupts in 28 cities
Shenzhen Violently Protests Japan
http://hk.apple.nextmedia.com/news/index/

[Zefah]

What a bunch of idiots.

Busting up a bunch of shit in your own country because you're mad?

[Big-E]

In other news, China had semi organized anti Japan protect over the weekend in Xi'an (and a few other cities?)

Will be in the dongbei tomorrow so I can see what the sentiment is like there.

[numble]

New York Times article on the protests:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/20/wo...ed-island.html

Anti-Japan Protests Erupt in China Over Disputed Island
By KEITH BRADSHER, MARTIN FACKLER and ANDREW JACOBS

HONG KONG — Anti-Japanese protests spread across China over the weekend, and the landing of Japanese activists on a disputed island on Sunday sharply intensified tensions between the two countries. Protesters took to the streets in nearly a dozen Chinese cities on Saturday and Sunday in response to Japan’s detention on Wednesday and deportation on Friday of a separate group of activists from Hong Kong, Macau and China who had landed on the same island, part of a chain of uninhabited islands known as the Diaoyu in China and the Senkakus in Japan. Demonstrations took place in cities up and down China’s eastern provinces, according to Xinhua, the official news agency. The Chinese state news media portrayed the demonstrations as fairly small, each involving fewer than 200 people, and not extending to inland provinces. But photographs posted on Sina Weibo, the country’s most widely used microblogging service, suggested that the crowds had been far larger. In one photo said to be from the southwestern city of Chengdu, deep in China’s interior, the number of protesters appeared to be in the thousands. “Defend the Diaoyu Islands to the death,” one banner said. Another said, “Even if China is covered with graves, we must kill all Japanese.” Another photograph showed a handwritten sign taped to the entrance of Suning, a popular electronics store, telling customers it was no longer selling Japanese products. Some protests appear to have turned violent. According to several postings, demonstrators on Sunday attacked sushi restaurants or other businesses perceived to have a Japanese connection. Several photographs said to be from Shenzhen, across the border from Hong Kong, showed what appeared to be damaged or overturned cars — most of them Japanese models — as well as several police vehicles. The demonstrations appeared to be sanctioned and chaperoned by the police, who generally prohibit public protests unless they suit the needs of the Communist Party. In the past, Beijing has allowed nationalist sentiment to bubble up into street demonstrations, but the authorities usually keep them contained out of concern they might spiral out of control or turn into popular antigovernment sentiment. Even as the protests began unfolding Sunday morning, a group of conservative Japanese activists might have planted the seeds for further anger in China. About 10 of the activists, including local assembly members from Tokyo, swam ashore to the disputed island, Uotsuri. While Japan controls the island chain, the Tokyo government restricts access to avoid inflaming regional tensions. The 10 who landed Sunday did so without permission, and were later questioned by the Japanese Coast Guard. Members of the group said they were responding to the pro-China activists’ landing, and they urged Prime Minister Yoshihiko Noda to do more to defend the islands. “Four days ago there was an illegal landing of Chinese people on the island,” Koichi Mukoyama, a lawmaker who was sailed to the island but did not swim ashore, was quoted as saying by The Associated Press. “We need to solidly reaffirm our own territory.” The Chinese Foreign Ministry reacted angrily, after having asked Japan to make sure no activists reached the island. “Japanese right-wing elements have illegally violated China’s territorial sovereignty,” Qin Gang, a spokesman, said on the ministry’s Web site. “Relevant officials from the Foreign Ministry have already made stern representations to the Japanese ambassador, making a strong protest and urging Japan to cease actions that are damaging China’s territorial sovereignty.” The Japanese activists were part of a group of conservative members of Parliament and local politicians who arrived at the island on nearly two dozen boats that carried about 150 people. The Japanese Coast Guard did not release the names of the activists who had made it to the island’s rocky shore. Photos of the landing by the Kyodo News Agency showed several men and at least one woman standing in wet street clothes as they displayed a Japanese flag on shore. In China, Global Times, a nationalist-inflected newspaper owned by People’s Daily, the Communist Party mouthpiece, held an impromptu seminar on the crisis on Sunday, with many participants calling for more radical action. During the seminar, one hawkish analyst, Dai Xu, called on the Chinese military to seize Japanese ships. Maj. Gen. Luo Yuan, one of the most outspokenly hawkish generals in China, called on China to send 100 boats to defend the islands. “If necessary, we could make the Diaoyu Islands a target range for China’s Air Force and plant mines around them,” he said, according to a microblog posting by the newspaper. But Hu Xijin, the editor of Global Times and an organizer of the seminar, counseled restraint, a departure from his usually militant writings on China’s territorial disputes. He belittled the Japanese activists as “provocative right-wing monkeys,” but said the dispute was not worth a full-scale war between the countries. “Chinese people, please don’t be overly angered by this,” he wrote. “We should have more confidence and view Japan from a global perspective.” While many postings on microblogs expressed rage against the Japanese, a significant number criticized the Chinese government for its timidity. Many such postings, however, were promptly deleted. Confrontations between Japan and China on or near the contested islands have the potential to become larger international incidents. China halted exports of crucial rare earth metals to Japan for nearly two months after the Japanese Coast Guard in 2010 detained a mainland Chinese fishing vessel that slammed into a coast guard ship when it was intercepted near one of the islands. The export halt drew international attention to Chinese restrictions on exports of rare earths and helped lead to the filing last spring of a World Trade Organization case challenging China’s right to limit exports of such important minerals. Japan joined the United States and the European Union in filing the case, the first time that Tokyo has brought a trade case against its much larger neighbor. A rare-earth industry executive said there had been no sign so far this time of a disruption in Chinese exports of the strategic minerals. The executive insisted on anonymity because of the diplomatic delicacy of the issue.

[Soyongdori]

Haha, japan making friends all over Asia.

This will bite them in the ass hard in the future. Mark my words.

[Natetan]

Shenzhen (Japanese cars)

Take THAT made-in-china japanese brand automobile!

[Zefah]

Haha, japan making friends all over Asia. This will bite them in the ass hard in the future. Mark my words.

Umm... what?

You've got the fucking president of South Korea landing in a disputed territory. From Japan's point of view, they just had the president of another country illegally enter their territory. It's complete insanity from a diplomatic perspective.

Then you have some crazy dudes from Hong Kong landing on another set of islands. Some equally crazy dudes from Japan return the gesture.

Meanwhile the Japanese government is expressing their disappointment in a series of generic comments while you have the Korean president demanding a sincere apology from the Japanese emperor (again, diplomatically insane), and various Chinese officials making multiple inflammatory comments.

And you're talking about Japan being the one not making friends? You think they should just let other countries take the territory they have a claim over? I'll admit I'm biased in that I have a strong connection with Japan, but looking at this objectively, I don't see how Japan can be considered the aggressor here.

[numble]

Umm... what? You've got the fucking president of South Korea landing in a disputed territory. From Japan's point of view, they just had the president of another country illegally enter their territory. It's complete insanity from a diplomatic perspective. Then you have some crazy dudes from Hong Kong landing on another set of islands. Some equally crazy dudes from Japan return the gesture. Meanwhile the Japanese government is expressing their disappointment in a series of generic comments while you have the Korean president demanding a sincere apology from the Japanese emperor (again, diplomatically insane), and various Chinese officials making multiple inflammatory comments. And you're talking about Japan being the one not making friends? You think they should just let other countries take the territory they have a claim over? I'll admit I'm biased in that I have a strong connection with Japan, but looking at this objectively, I don't see how Japan can be considered the aggressor here.

Cabinet members visiting the Yasakuni Shrine on the anniversary of the end of WWII doesn't help things.

[SRG01]

Umm... what? You've got the fucking president of South Korea landing in a disputed territory. From Japan's point of view, they just had the president of another country illegally enter their territory. It's complete insanity from a diplomatic perspective. Then you have some crazy dudes from Hong Kong landing on another set of islands. Some equally crazy dudes from Japan return the gesture. Meanwhile the Japanese government is expressing their disappointment in a series of generic comments while you have the Korean president demanding a sincere apology from the Japanese emperor (again, diplomatically insane), and various Chinese officials making multiple inflammatory comments. And you're talking about Japan being the one not making friends? You think they should just let other countries take the territory they have a claim over? I'll admit I'm biased in that I have a strong connection with Japan, but looking at this objectively, I don't see how Japan can be considered the aggressor here.

I agree. I'm ethnic Chinese and even I'm surprised at the tensions over decades-old disputes. Why now?

[Natetan]

Cabinet members visiting the Yasakuni Shrine on the anniversary of the end of WWII doesn't help things.

was that highly publicized in China? It was backpage news here. He said it was a personal visit (but what else would he say it was). At least the prime minister didnt go.

I'd like to say the potsdam or washington treaty or whatever should have been more explicit about all these islands and who they belong to, but really Korea/China would find some new reason to vent anger at Japan.

I don't understand why the US didn't resolve this when they ended the Okinawa occupation in the 70's.

[Zefah]

Cabinet members visiting the Yasakuni Shrine on the anniversary of the end of WWII doesn't help things.

While part of that may have been reactionary, the cabinet members in question have visited Yasukuni just about every year and expressed their intent to visit again this year in advance of their actual visit. Although the Noda government encourages its cabinet members to not visit Yasukuni, Noda's control is obviously very weak.

[numble]

I agree. I'm ethnic Chinese and even I'm surprised at the tensions over decades-old disputes. Why now?

For the Diaoyu/Senkaku/Pinnacle islands, you can see what happened in 2012:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senkaku...s_dispute#2012
Japanese Municipal officials visited the islands.

The Japanese government said they were going to give more names to some of the islets.

The Japanese government said they were considering buying the islands from Japanese private owners and nationalize them for government purposes. Tokyo's governor said he was negotiating to purchase 3 of the islands, and had raised $16 million to buy them.
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/ja...slands/971691/

While part of that may have been reactionary, the cabinet members in question have visited Yasukuni just about every year and expressed their intent to visit again this year in advance of their actual visit. Although the Noda government encourages its cabinet members to not visit Yasukuni, Noda's control is obviously very weak.

was that highly publicized in China? It was backpage news here. He said it was a personal visit (but what else would he say it was). At least the prime minister didnt go. I'd like to say the potsdam or washington treaty or whatever should have been more explicit about all these islands and who they belong to, but really Korea/China would find some new reason to vent anger at Japan. I don't understand why the US didn't resolve this when they ended the Okinawa occupation in the 70's.

There have been no visits from Japanese officials for the past 3 years.
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headline...g-south-korea/

Yes, it was big news in both China and Taiwan:
http://focustaiwan.tw/ShowNews/WebNe...D=201208150027

[SRG01]

was that highly publicized in China? It was backpage news here. He said it was a personal visit (but what else would he say it was). At least the prime minister didnt go. I'd like to say the potsdam or washington treaty or whatever should have been more explicit about all these islands and who they belong to, but really Korea/China would find some new reason to vent anger at Japan.

Chinese censorship is actually very effective in driving public opinion. Case in point: http://www.ted.com/talks/michael_ant..._of_china.html

Also, I was in Hong Kong at the time of that train crash in the TED video. Crazy stuff.



numble: You do realize that the islands have been under Japanese control for several decades and owned by the Koga family, right? And that's not mentioning the Sino-Japanese wars?

[Soyongdori]

Umm... what? You've got the fucking president of South Korea landing in a disputed territory. From Japan's point of view, they just had the president of another country illegally enter their territory. It's complete insanity from a diplomatic perspective.

That's their point of view. So far as others are concerned, from the points of Russia, China, and Korea, that rock belongs to Korea. Japan is making a big fuss out of something that they don't even own. How funny is that?

Meanwhile the Japanese government is expressing their disappointment in a series of generic comments while you have the Korean president demanding a sincere apology from the Japanese emperor (again, diplomatically insane), and various Chinese officials making multiple inflammatory comments.

How is it diplomatically insane? His father was an emperor who was guilty as much as Tojo, a war crime responsible for millions of death in China.

And you're talking about Japan being the one not making friends? You think they should just let other countries take the territory they have a claim over? I'll admit I'm biased in that I have a strong connection with Japan, but looking at this objectively, I don't see how Japan can be considered the aggressor here.

Well that pretty much tells where your point of view comes from, eh?

/end

[Natetan]

The Japanese government said they were considering buying the islands from Japanese private owners and nationalize them for government purposes. Tokyo's governor said he was negotiating to purchase 3 of the islands, and had raised $16 million to buy them. http://www.indianexpress.com/news/ja...slands/971691/

Well Ishihara is known for his anti-korean/chinese stance on things. While he is a charasmatic governer, i think he's a bit of a moron when it comes to these things.

I'm still confused what good it would do for the Tokyo Metropolitan Government to buy these islands. That doesn't change how international society views whose territory it is. It's stupid.

I don't think Ishihara has explicit approval from the national government to do this, although I don't think the Prime Minister is exactly against the idea. I just don't see the point. China will still claim them, it won't resolve anything and just make China more angry.

[Zefah]

There have been no visits from Japanese officials for the past 3 years. http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headline...g-south-korea/ Yes, it was big news in both China and Taiwan: http://focustaiwan.tw/ShowNews/WebNe...D=201208150027

Those guys weren't in the government last year. Thanks to Japan's revolving door of prime ministers these last six years or so, Noda's government only kicked off last September, which was after any time anyone might visit Yasukuni.

[LiK]

i've seen this news about the islands for months on Chinese TV news. can't believe they're fighting over that.

[numble]

Well Ishihara is known for his anti-korean/chinese stance on things. While he is a charasmatic governer, i think he's a bit of a moron when it comes to these things. I'm still confused what good it would do for the Tokyo Metropolitan Government to buy these islands. That doesn't change how international society views whose territory it is. It's stupid. I don't think Ishihara has explicit approval from the national government to do this, although I don't think the Prime Minister is exactly against the idea. I just don't see the point. China will still claim them, it won't resolve anything and just make China more angry.

Yeah, I'm just explaining why anger is bubbling up again regarding the islands. Instead of leaving things alone like its been for the last 2 years, if you say you're going to buy them from Japanese citizens and use them for government purposes, you start stirring up trouble.

Those guys weren't in the government last year. Thanks to Japan's revolving door of prime ministers these last six years or so, Noda's government only kicked off last September, which was after any time anyone might visit Yasukuni.

Well, that explains why there's more focus on the visits this year. They're now part of the government.

[_Xenon_]

i said earlier, i think japan should just let them have takeshima. Honestly though, I think the Koreans and Chinese governments will just keep picking something until all of japan is under the poverty the line while they have money and are successful. too many decades living in poverty after the war have made a lot of people bitter.

Sure, let's take a look at how Chinese government "keep picking something until all of Japan is under the poverty line".



Left red line: Japan's median line.
Right red line: Ours.
Blue line: Okinawa Trough (where it's hard to place oil pipes)
5 Dots on the left side of the median line: Chinese drilling platforms.
4 Dots on the right side of the median line: Japanese drilling platforms.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_China_Sea

In 1995, the People's Republic of China (PRC) discovered an undersea natural gas field in the East China Sea, namely the Chunxiao gas field,[5] which lies within the Chinese EEZ while Japan believes it is connected to other possible reserves beyond the median line.[6] Japan has objected to PRC development of natural gas resources in the East China Sea near an area where the two countries Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) claims overlap. The specific development in dispute is the PRC's drilling in the Chunxiao gas field, which is located in undisputed areas on China's side, three or four miles (6 km) west of the median line proposed by Japan. Japan maintains that although the Chunxiao gas field rigs are on the PRC side of a median line that Tokyo regards as the two sides' sea boundary, they may tap into a field that stretches underground into the disputed area.[7] Japan therefore seeks a share in the natural gas resources. The Chunxiao gas field in Xihu Sag in the East China Sea is estimated to hold reserves of more than 1.6 tcf of natural gas and is expected to become a major producer in the next ten years. Commercial operation was expected to begin in mid-2005 at a production rate of 70 bcf per year, rising to 282 bcf by 2010. Sinopec Star has reserves of 7 tcf of gas, 1.9 tcf of which is held in the Chunxiao area.[4] This new round of disputes has triggered both official and civilian protests and demonstrations in both countries.[8] In June 2008, both sides agreed to jointly develop the Chunxiao gas fields.[7]

Right, so even though we don't recognize your median line, when we built our platforms we still respected it. Then even though we were only drilling our side's oil, your government still bitched that we might "suck" the resources from your side. And despite of this bullshit, we actually agreed to share with you. And now you are acting like some kind of victim here whining we are raping your land and making you poor? How about go back to your closet and fuck yourself?

[SRG01]

Well Ishihara is known for his anti-korean/chinese stance on things. While he is a charasmatic governer, i think he's a bit of a moron when it comes to these things. I'm still confused what good it would do for the Tokyo Metropolitan Government to buy these islands. That doesn't change how international society views whose territory it is. It's stupid. I don't think Ishihara has explicit approval from the national government to do this, although I don't think the Prime Minister is exactly against the idea. I just don't see the point. China will still claim them, it won't resolve anything and just make China more angry.

But that's the entire problem. Why on earth do the Japanese have to do anything to appease the Chinese when it's pretty much Japanese territory now. It blows my mind.

[Soyongdori]

But that's the entire problem. Why on earth do the Japanese have to do anything to appease the Chinese when it's pretty much Japanese territory now. It blows my mind.

Because China has Japan in their thumb. Japan's economy heavily depends on exporting to China. Economically speaking, japan is China's bitch.

[Zefah]

That's their point of view. So far as others are concerned, from the points of Russia, China, and Korea, that rock belongs to Korea. Japan is making a big fuss out of something that they don't even own. How funny is that?

You say they don't own it as if it's an objective fact. You don't think Japan should fight to retain territory it thinks it owns? Just because Russia, China, and Korea say they don't own it, Japan should just obey? What kind of dumb shit is this?

How is it diplomatically insane? His father was an emperor who was as guilty as Tojo, a war crime responsible for millions of death in China.

It's diplomatically insane if you want to actually talk with Japan. We're not talking about emotional issues here. In a legal sense, the Japanese emperor was never tried for anything. In the world of diplomacy, you can't just start talking shit about the symbol of another country unless you are looking to start a fight.

Well that pretty much tells where your point of view comes from, eh? /end

Maybe I shouldn't be arguing with someone immature enough to seriously use "/end." Also, look at your own damn username. I wonder if you like Korea!

[linsivvi]

And you're talking about Japan being the one not making friends? You think they should just let other countries take the territory they have a claim over? I'll admit I'm biased in that I have a strong connection with Japan, but looking at this objectively, I don't see how Japan can be considered the aggressor here.

They are not all angels. The right wing elements of Japan are doing all the provoking while the reasonable ones are trying to control the damage. Politicians visiting the war criminal shrine is ridiculous and an extremely aggressive behavior.

The whole dispute started up again because the Tokyo governor was actively trying to buy the Diaoyu/Senkaku Island while the central government trying to downplay it. From the other countries perspective, however, it is the Japanese government doing these things.

Also, the territories are in dispute. Nobody has a claim over it until the matter is settled.

So yes, you're incredibly biased.

[SRG01]

Because China has Japan in their thumb. Japan's economy heavily depends on exporting to China. Economically speaking, japan is China's bitch.

Man, I'm totally getting 1800s-1900s Sino-International relations deja-vu here, except in the opposite direction.

Also, the territories are in dispute. Nobody has a claim over it until the matter is settled.

The two Sino-Japanese wars and US occupation/handoff counts as a dispute?

[Soyongdori]

You say they don't own it as if it's an objective fact. You don't think Japan should fight to retain territory it thinks it owns? Just because Russia, China, and Korea say they don't own it, Japan should just obey? What kind of dumb shit is this?

Hence my original post, japan making friends everywhere in Asia. Don't start stirring bee hive when you don't have any nations to back up your bullshit claims. If japan wants to start sabotaging their own relationships with closest nations to their island, then all powers to them.

It's diplomatically insane if you want to actually talk with Japan. We're not talking about emotional issues here. In a legal sense, the Japanese emperor was never tried for anything. In the world of diplomacy, you can't just start talking shit about the symbol of another country unless you are looking to start a fight.

China has been picking a fight with Japan for long time. Diplomatically speaking, China doesn't give a flying fuck about japan's emperor, nor Korea, nor Russia. Nor any other countries in Asia for that matter.

Maybe I shouldn't be arguing with someone immature enough to seriously use "/end." Also, look at your own damn username. I wonder if you like Korea!

My user comes from famous Tekken player's nickname. Nothing to do with my likeness to any countries. Unlike you, who already confirmed that you are bias for japan.

[Zefah]

Because China has Japan in their thumb. Japan's economy heavily depends on exporting to China. Economically speaking, japan is China's bitch.

Wow, dude. I admitted a bit of bias, but I'm not going to just lie about something because I may get emotional about it. You can't just go ignoring facts like that. I understand that you have a hated for Japan for whatever reason, but you're full of shit.

Japan is the second largest destination of exports from China. China has seen so much money in terms of aid, investment, and loans from Japan it's insane. Their economy would see a massive blow if trade with Japan ceased.

They are not all angels. The right wing elements of Japan are doing all the provoking while the reasonable ones are trying to control the damage. Politicians visiting the war criminal shrine is ridiculous and an extremely aggressive behavior. The whole dispute started up again because the Tokyo governor was actively trying to buy the Diaoyu/Senkaku Island while the central government trying to downplay it. From the other countries perspective, however, it is the Japanese government doing these things. Also, the territories are in dispute. Nobody has a claim over it until the matter is settled. So yes, you're incredibly biased.

I admit that I'm biased in favor of Japan, and I'll agree that visiting Yasukuni is not smart in terms of international relations. However, from an internal perspective, the shrine houses a lot more than just dead officers who were tried as war criminals.

[Soyongdori]

Wow, dude. I admitted a bit of bias, but I'm not going to just lie about something because I may get emotional about it. You can't just go ignoring facts like that. I understand that you have a hated for Japan for whatever reason, but you're full of shit. Japan is the second largest destination of exports from China. China has seen so much money in terms of aid, investment, and loans from Japan it's insane. Their economy would see a massive blow if trade with Japan ceased.

LMFAO, I don't hate Japan. I just don't like their douchebag politicians who are in charge of their nation and the douchebag ultra right wing nationalist retards who denies war crimes, though.

Just because I'm critical of japan, don't start saying "OMG YOU MUST BE ANTI-JAPAN". What a bullshit logic.

[numble]

The two Sino-Japanese wars and US occupation/handoff counts as a dispute?

Even the US government recognizes that they are in dispute.

[Zefah]

LMFAO, I don't hate Japan. I just don't like their douchebag politicians who are in charge of their nation and the ultra right wing nationalists who denies war crimes, though. Just because I'm critical of japan, don't start saying "OMG YOU MUST BE ANTI-JAPAN". What a bullshit logic.

Nah, it's been pretty obvious from your posts in these threads that you strongly dislike Japan and really like Korea (and maybe China, too?). Either way, you have a very big bone to pick with Japan and it shows.

I think Japanese politicians are mostly idiots. I don't like nationalism on either side, either. I'm trying to stay as objective as I can here, but it doesn't help when you're throwing around inflammatory stuff about Japan.

[Soyongdori]

Nah, it's been pretty obvious from your posts in these threads that you strongly dislike Japan and really like Korea (and maybe China, too?). Either way, you have a very big bone to pick with Japan and it shows.

Well, from the logic of person who seems to be very pro-nippon, of course you would think my posts have some kind of anti-japan agenda hidden. But there are none. Otherwise, do go ahead and provide some examples where I have been showing "a bone to pick with japan".

I think Japanese politicians are mostly idiots. I don't like nationalism on either side, either. I'm trying to stay as objective as I can here, but it doesn't help when you're throwing around inflammatory stuff about Japan.

You aren't even being objective at all. Your arguments has been like "japan has done nothing wrong", which is obviously big fat false.

China is a douchebag when it comes to claiming other territories, but they are a rising star in the international scene. They want to flex their muscle a bit, sure it obviously shows that they are acting like quite the assholes, but that's China for you. I don't have to be critical of China when people already knows they are acting like asshole/bully. I don't have to point out the obvious.

[SRG01]

Even the US government recognizes that they are in dispute.

No, the US government position is neutral. They've held this position since the handover to Japan.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...ar/senkaku.htm

[Zefah]

Well, from the logic of person who seems to be very pro-nippon, of course you would think my posts have some kind of anti-japan agenda hidden. But there are none. Otherwise, do go ahead and provide some examples where I have been showing "a bone to pick with japan". You aren't even being objective at all. Your arguments has been like "japan has done nothing wrong", which is obviously big fat false. China is a douchebag when it comes to claiming other territories, but they are a rising star in the international scene. They want to flex their muscle a bit, sure it obviously shows that they are acting like quite assholes, but that's China for you. I don't have to be critical of China when people already knows they are acting like bully.

So you're excusing China's actions because they are a "rising star?" What does that even mean?

I am in no way claiming that Japan has done nothing wrong. Ishihara is an idiot, and he knew what he was doing by trying to buy the islands. He's getting a lot of shit domestically, too.

With that said, I think Lee Myung-bak's landing on the disputed islands was complete insanity. Having the head of a nation enter a territory illegally (from an allied nation's perspective) is a massive, massive insult. It would be grounds for war if it occurred amongst other nations.

Honestly, the government in Japan is probably the weakest it's been in years (that's a hard feat), and you can see how people both domestically and internationally are poking at Japan because they know Noda and his government is shit.

[Soyongdori]

Japan is the second largest destination of exports from China. China has seen so much money in terms of aid, investment, and loans from Japan it's insane. Their economy would see a massive blow if trade with Japan ceased.

That would've been true about 10 years ago. Not anymore. With China replacing Japan as the second largest economy, and Yuan getting stronger every year, japan has everything to lose if they cease their trade with China or China ceasing a trade with japan. That would be also a blow to China, but not as big as you would think. China's main economy comes from dealing with exporting products to America and Europe, and Asia.

[numble]

No, the US government position is neutral. They've held this position since the handover to Japan. http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...ar/senkaku.htm

lol, wut--Neutral means there is a dispute!
If they believed the US handover cleared up all claims, they would support Japanese claims.

From your own link:

On 09 April 1999 US Ambassador to Japan Thomas S. Foley said "The United States notes the Japanese claim to these islands, and we are not, as far as I understand, taking a specific position in the dispute....

The US is not taking a specific position in the dispute.

Therefore... there is no dispute?

[Natetan]

Right, so even though we don't recognize your median line, when we built our platforms we still respected it. Then even though we were only drilling our side's oil, your government still bitched that we might "suck" the resources from your side. And despite of this bullshit, we actually agreed to share with you. And now you are acting like some kind of victim here whining we are raping your land and making you poor? How about go back to your closet and fuck yourself?

I don't see why this is an illigitimate complaint.

In June 2008, both sides agreed to jointly develop the Chunxiao gas fields.[

This is what they should be doing. No one cares about these islands, so just share the gas reserves underneath.

And I would like to know what Japan can do to make Korea/China stop hating them. They've apologized and given money, and China is Japan's largest trade partner. There isn't much else they can do as a country.

Japan probably looked down on Korea and China for a couple decades after the war, but I can tell you that Korea is pretty cool now and China isn't looked down upon really, just that Chinese people can be a bit rough.

I just wish that the three countries could get along. I want my Japan-Korea undersea train link!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan%E...ndersea_Tunnel

[SRG01]

lol, wut--Neutral means there is a dispute! If they believed the US handover cleared up all claims, they would support Japanese claims.

Uh, what? There's a difference between acknowledging a dispute exists and holding no position on something. The US holds the latter.

In other words, they don't care either way... until things hit the fan of course.