[SquiddyCracker]

I was going to tell Squiddybiscuit in the other thread not to be the one to create this one as I felt he wasn't the right person, given his negative stance against "men's rights" in that other thread.

Those were my thoughts as well.

I could have made it a lot more biased if I wanted it to.
Went ahead and edited out nation-specific issues and some issues that aren't widely recognized.

[Imm0rt4l]

I rolled my eyes when I saw the thread title.

[Jado]

The thread title even has crappy punctuation.

You started a thread and posted a bunch of random links without saying anything of meaning yourself. You didn't give the topic a fair shake in its initial post. You don't think much of this subject and it shows. Thanks for nothing.

[derder]

Probably nothing. But we are on an internet forum what good are we doing talking about it if we also don't go into the real world and try to make changes? It seems to always boil down to a he said she said scenario.

It's not though.

If the woman has one drop of alcohol she is legally entitled to claim that she was raped, without recourse.

It's the only fair way to do it. If she had a drink, keep it zipped up boys.

[Devolution]

Probably nothing. But we are on an internet forum what good are we doing talking about it if we also don't go into the real world and try to make changes? It seems to always boil down to a he said she said scenario.

So would it not be better to instead focus on ways that might encourage the false claim to begin with? Or on other issues that can be resolved? Like family court laws that still harbor benevolent sexism or getting more perks for fathers and mothers when it comes to work leave?

[Calcaneus]

I've heard some real horror stories of dudes getting fucked over in divorce. That is something that should definitely be looked at.

But I feel like that would just be a part of reforming the way divorce is handled in general. Like, do we really need a men's rights movement to do that?

Is the collective voice of men in the world really not being heard?

[Christine]

To be honest, I used to firmly believe that family law had real issues to work on until I realized who agreed with me. Now I'm much more undecided -- the association makes me concerned that it's unexamined privilege on my part.

It's always useful to try to consider how your own privilege and biases might affect your opinions, but "until I realized who agreed with me" is a textbook ad hominem fallacy.

[s7evn]

Real men don't have issues. No issues here.

He definitely has issues.

I could have made it a lot more biased if I wanted it to.

Biased threads are the best threads.

[Sunflower]

I've heard some real horror stories of dudes getting fucked over in divorce. That is something that should definitely be looked at. But I feel like that would just be a part of reforming divorce laws in general. Like, do we really need a men's rights movement to do that? Is the collective voice of men in the world really not being heard?

Everyone should want equality, I agree with you.

[DUFFMCWALIN]

So would it not be better to instead focus on ways that might encourage the false claim to begin with? Or on other issues that can be resolved? Like family court laws that still harbor benevolent sexism or getting more perks for fathers and mothers when it comes to work leave?

Sure. Idk I'm leaving now. I feel a ban coming on. And I'm at work. Maybe I'll jump in again later when I do some more research and thinking.

[ronito]

Is being thought you're a pedophile everytime you take your kids to the park just because you're a guy count as a Men's Rights issue? Cause then I might be supportive.

And oh yeah there needs to be an overhaul of family law. Lifetime alimony? Seriously?

[SpeedingUptoStop]

Yea, this place isn't reddit and I don't want it to become reddit, thanks.

[Fenderputty]

Divorce laws in Cali are a little wonky, but I've never understood the whole movment. Being born a white male in the states is like winning the lottery on a global scale.

[Tomat]

.

[Steve Youngblood]

I don't get the animosity toward the subject. Seems like it could be a legitimate concern and there have been cases of it happening. No one wants to go to prison for something they didn't do.

There are two issues at play. One is that going out of our way to address this as a problem worthy of high concern carries with it the implication that we need to be very skeptical of rape claims for fear that this is another person lying to ruin a man's reputation. It necessarily follows that women should feel pressured not to step forward unless they've got solid evidence to present, lest they be regarded as yet another person lying for whatever reason.

The other is that it's often presented as a unique situation that has slipped through the cracks. There are laws on the book about libel, slander, defamation of character, etc., and if sworn testimony is offered, perjury exists as a a punishable offense. False rape charges aren't some unique class of accusation that you can make against someone without fear of repercussions, as some seem to think.

Aside from that, there's nothing inherently wrong with suggesting that a false accusation of rape is a bad thing. However, many feel that it's not a particularly strong threat relative to actual rape that merits special inquiry into how to fix it and consequently increased scrutiny of reporting rape.

[Sunflower]

Is being thought you're a pedophile everytime you take your kids to the park just because you're a guy count as a Men's Rights issue? Cause then I might be supportive

I can tell you I'm more self-conscious than I ever used to be in the past 10 years about the perception of being around children. And I hate kids - I can't stand the little assholes, and I wish I'd never see them - but that being said, I feel like I can't look at one and smile if it does something entertaining or says something funny. I just know I'm under a stupid, stupid amount of scrutiny now.

[Kano On The Phone]

Is being thought you're a pedophile everytime you take your kids to the park just because you're a guy count as a Men's Rights issue? Cause then I might be supportive. And oh yeah there needs to be an overhaul of family law. Lifetime alimony? Seriously?

This doesn't actually happen, don't be silly.

The latter is an argument that can be made but fucking certainly not an issue that needs a movement behind it considering our justice system is male by a giant majority.

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Being born a white male in the states is like winning the lottery on a global scale.

As others have been saying, it's playing life on Easy mode.

[Metrotab]

In an effort to save this thread (because there are some interesting debates to be had), I would like to bring up the following discussion topic.

I've read that in the US, divorce alimony law has an unfair bias towards the woman. There are tons of 'alimony nightmare' stories out there on the internet, several alimony reform groups, ...

Do people here agree with that assertion?

[squidyj]

Real men don't have issues. No issues here. No issues here. No issues here.

I don't get it. Fictional people don't have real problems?

[Simplet]

Wow I knew about white guilt, never realized male guilt was up to these hilarious levels.

"The patriarchy" impacts men, too. In that way, men's rights is almost viable on some level and not actually the silliest thing I've ever heard of.

Some really choice quotes in here

[Jado]

Is being thought you're a pedophile everytime you take your kids to the park just because you're a guy count as a Men's Rights issue? Cause then I might be supportive. And oh yeah there needs to be an overhaul of family law. Lifetime alimony? Seriously?

Yes, it's a men's rights issue. Several news reports are coming out now about men being treated unfairly in airplanes just because they're sitting next to unoccupied kids. The assumption is "you might be a pedophile, so move."

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Some really choice quotes in here

Are you sure you got my point?

People try to paint feminism as an enemy of men when we're really all in it together. Men just get defensive because we're generally idiots and can't listen.

[Eschaton]

Is being thought you're a pedophile everytime you take your kids to the park just because you're a guy count as a Men's Rights issue? Cause then I might be supportive. And oh yeah there needs to be an overhaul of family law. Lifetime alimony? Seriously?

I feel like it is an issue. I think its really sad that men can't work with children in any sort of teaching/mentoring position without being treated with a certain level of suspicion, for example. But what can be done about that?

[TUROK]

IIs the collective voice of men in the world really not being heard?

There is no collective voice of men that tries to rectify the imbalance between the sexes. These MRA groups are trying to be that collective voice, but since most of them just focus on men's issues, they're just as bad as the Feminist groups who claim to be for the equality of both sexes, but just focus on the issues that plague women.

[ronito]

This doesn't actually happen, don't be silly.

About 2 weeks ago at my kids school they had the police come and watch the gates and stuff. The reason? Some suspicious guy was standing under the tree looking at the kids. Turns out he was a dad there to pick up his kid when the wife couldn't get off at work. Nice.

[TheNatural]

Ironhead Haynes' Nine Commandments:
1. It's okay to call hooters "knockers" and sometimes "snack trays."
2. It is wrong to be French.
3. It's okay to put all bad people in a giant meat grinder.
4. Lawyers: see rule three.
5. It is okay to drive a gas guzzler if it helps you get babes.
6. Everyone should car pool but me.
7. Bring back the word "stewardesses"
8. Synchronized Swimming is not a sport.
9. Mudwrestling is a sport.

[Milchjon]

The issues Paternity fraud Paternity fraud occurs when a mother intentionally identifies a man as a biological father, who she knows is not the father. Education Men's rights activists describe the education of boys as being in crisis, with boys having reduced educational achievement and motivation as compared to girls.[78] Advocates blame the influence of feminism on education for discrimination against and systematic oppression of boys in the education system. They critique what they describe as the "feminization" of education, stating that the predominance of female teachers, a focus on girls' needs as well as a curricula and assessment methods that favour girls have proved repressive and restrictive to men and boys. Men's rights approaches call for increased recognition of masculinity, greater numbers of male role models, more competitive sports, and the increased responsibilities for boys in the school setting. They have also urged for clearer school routines, more traditional school structures, including single sex classes, and stricter discipline. Military conscription Men's rights activists have argued that military conscription of men is an example of oppression of men. Domestic violence Since the late 1970s and 1980s men's rights activists have asserted, based on academic studies, that the incidence of domestic violence and murders committed by women is under-reported, partly due to men's reluctance to admit being victims. Social security and insurance Men's rights groups have argued since the 1970s that men are given inferior social security and tax benefits to women.

These are the issues that either affected me or people very close to me.
Several others I feel like there's an immediate need to address them.

I think the problem is that it's always framed as a fight of men vs. women. People should realize that there are problems on both sides, and they all need to be addressed. The fact that I hate how almost all of these issues are being handled doesn't mean that I think that feminists don't have a point sometimes too. It shouldn't be "Now it's our turn".

[Devolution]

Divorce laws in Cali are a little wonky, but I've never understood the whole movment. Being born a white male in the states is like winning the lottery on a global scale.

Well many of the laws were written at a time in which women were the general caretaker and sacrificed their careers to stay at home. So all of that time they could have spent working and advancing and making money for themselves was put on hold. So in a divorce they would essentially take the kids and care for them, like they had done previously, while the man would be the "check." Different houses, essentially the same roles. It's only recently that many women work and balance care taking instead of just staying home. In a lot of cases though women still bear the brunt of being the one to sacrifice their career to take care of the children, also known as the "housewife." So the laws haven't had much reason to change nor have they been successfully lobbied by fathers/men who want to see them change. As much as some men find them unfair, plenty of men would rather work and have someone else take care of their kids. So this problem remains.

[Kano On The Phone]

About 2 weeks ago at my kids school they had the police come and watch the gates and stuff. The reason? Some suspicious guy was standing under the tree looking at the kids. Turns out he was a dad there to pick up his kid when the wife couldn't get off at work. Nice.

Oh shit, well that thing happened once, better start a movement.

[Imm0rt4l]

I've heard some real horror stories of dudes getting fucked over in divorce. That is something that should definitely be looked at. But I feel like that would just be a part of reforming the way divorce is handled in general. Like, do we really need a men's rights movement to do that? Is the collective voice of men in the world really not being heard?

my sentiments as well. A whole movement for a people are mostly priveledged relative to the other gender doesn't seem right. I say tackle each issue, a whole movement seems to to undermine those who are truly disenfranchised or oppressed.

[lopaz]

Any time people allege "an epidemic of false rape accusations" all I can say is iwanttoseethereceipts.gif With the rare exception where the woman confesses after the face, how could we possible know this?

In Pakistan, a woman needs to have 4 male witnesses before she can prove a rape.

In America, a woman needs nothing but her word to prove a man has domestically assaulted her (source: http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism...he-war-on-men/)

Both are unjust.

[Shao Kahn Going Shopping]

my sentiments as well. A whole movement for a people are mostly priveledged relative to the other gender doesn't seem right. I say tackle each issue, a whole movement seems to to undermine those who are truly disenfranchised or oppressed.

Of course. But you'll have plenty of other people saying "nope! We have problems too!" while they sit back and enjoy their privilege.

[ColonelColon]

Then you need to reshape the movement.

It may be anti-feminism, but opposing some aspects of feminism doesn't make you a misogynist.

[Karsticles]

In an effort to save this thread (because there are some interesting debates to be had), I would like to bring up the following discussion topic. I've read that in the US, divorce alimony law has an unfair bias towards the woman. There are tons of 'alimony nightmare' stories out there on the internet, several alimony reform groups, ... Do people here agree with that assertion?

Oh, it's definitely true. I've dealt with too many divorcees to not know it.

Wow I knew about white guilt, never realized male guilt was up to these hilarious levels.

Indeed.

[lopaz]

plenty of men would rather work and have someone else take care of their kids.

and plenty would not

[Kano On The Phone]

my sentiments as well. A whole movement for a people are mostly priveledged relative to the other gender doesn't seem right. I say tackle each issue, a whole movement seems to to undermine those who are truly disenfranchised or oppressed.

Yes, this is exactly it. The winning team doesn't need any more help. No sane person starts a petition to give the winning team in the Super Bowl a higher draft pick because they lost a few games during the season.

[ronito]

Oh and shit like this:

[SquiddyCracker]

In an effort to save this thread (because there are some interesting debates to be had), I would like to bring up the following discussion topic. I've read that in the US, divorce alimony law has an unfair bias towards the woman. There are tons of 'alimony nightmare' stories out there on the internet, several alimony reform groups, ... Do people here agree with that assertion?

I think the argument goes that that a housewife who went into the relationship assuming that the breadwinner would take care of her financials might end up with no means to support herself (or himself, though I don't know how alimony laws work when the woman is the breadwinner) in a divorce.

I don't know how these things work but my thoughts:

Alimony shouldn't be indefinite, only long enough for the woman to either support herself or gain the ability to support herself (say should she need to get back into education).

No alimony if the partner has an income that is at least minimum wage. Or perhaps a reduced/finite length alimony in order for the partner to get used to their own income.

[Devolution]

and plenty would not

Then those that do not need to lobby for change. Simple as that.

I think the argument goes that that a housewife who went into the relationship assuming that the breadwinner would take care of her financials might end up with no means to support herself (or himself, though I don't know how alimony laws work when the woman is the breadwinner) in a divorce. I don't know how these things work but my thoughts: Alimony shouldn't be indefinite, only long enough for the woman to either support herself or gain the ability to support herself (say should she need to get back into education). No alimony if the partner has an income that is at least minimum wage. Or perhaps a reduced/finite length alimony in order for the partner to get used to their own income.

People who moan about alimony should hook up with people who work or write up pre-nuptials. It goes both ways. It adversely affects men more right now since they are typically the breadwinners.

[onemic]

Mens rights just sounds so wrong.

[Ein Soph Aur]

Oh and shit like this:

Is that real?

[cutmeamango]

He definitely has issues.

Young McClane doesn't.

I don't get it. Fictional people don't have real problems?

Wow, if you think they are fictional you have some real problems.

[Shao Kahn Going Shopping]

Oh and shit like this:

Oh come on, that's meant to be humorous, there's nothing insulting about it. Except if you actually buy it, I guess.

[Timedog]

I think you should be able to sign some form at the courthouse with your SO or whatever random girl you sleep with, where you both agree to an abortion if she get's pregnant, and absolving the male of parental responsibility if she changes her mind. A verbal contract should also work in this instance, but would probably be incredibly hard to prove.

Just some sort of legal framework for responsibly getting out of having a child that neither of you originally wanted.

[TUROK]

Yes, this is exactly it. The winning team doesn't need any more help. No sane person starts a petition to give the winning team in the Super Bowl a higher draft pick because they lost a few games during the season.

This line of reasoning is so fucked up. Are men and women now competing against each other in a battle of civil rights?

[Devolution]

I think you should be able to sign some form at the courthouse with your SO or whatever random girl you sleep with, where you both agree to an abortion if she get's pregnant, and absolving the male of parental responsibility if she changes her mind. A verbal contract should also work in this instance, but would probably be incredibly hard to prove. Just some sort of legal framework for responsibly getting out of having a child that neither of you originally wanted.

Well you know what a great way to help this along is? Making abortions more available (there are some states without clinics and ridiculous laws) and not so demonized. Oh hark a feminist issue that also helps men who don't want children.

[JokerOfSpades]

All I can think of are:

- Assumed to be paedophiles
- Less bearing(?) in custody hearings

I think you should be able to sign some form at the courthouse with your SO or whatever random girl you sleep with, where you both agree to an abortion if she get's pregnant, and absolving the male of parental responsibility if she changes her mind. A verbal contract should also work in this instance, but would probably be incredibly hard to prove. Just some sort of legal framework for responsibly getting out of having a child that neither of you originally wanted.

This too. How many people would go to the courthouse for the random girl, though?

[ronito]

I think you should be able to sign some form at the courthouse with your SO or whatever random girl you sleep with, where you both agree to an abortion if she get's pregnant, and absolving the male of parental responsibility if she changes her mind. A verbal contract should also work in this instance, but would probably be incredibly hard to prove. Just some sort of legal framework for responsibly getting out of having a child that neither of you originally wanted.

I agree except verbal would never work.
I think there needs to be something with the birth certificate. something like "You have been designated as the father for this child you have 30 days to contest and absolve your parental rights." blah blah blah.

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

This line of reasoning is so fucked up. Are men and women now competing against each other in a battle of civil rights?

Yes. Why do you think politicians, who are mostly white Christian males, give so much of a shit about abortion, birth control, and pre-marital sex?