[Timedog]

I feel like you're discussing two different questions: 1) Whether this is the fault of the child. 2) Whether the father ought to be held responsible against his wishes. This is important because you say the following: If you had that discussion though, and agreed to abort, and the female changes her mind, there should be a legal framework for absolving responsibility. But, if you absolve responsibility of the father, you're still screwing the child over. You seem to be suggesting two values that necessarily conflict in this discussion.

Those are not two mutually exclusive discussions.

[Ein Soph Aur]

Wrong thread?

It is an issue, but I won't discuss it here.

[lopaz]

Explain to me, in no uncertain terms, how it not easier to be a man in the world than it is to be a woman. Now, explain to me, in no uncertain terms, how it is not easier to be a man in the United States of America than it is to be a woman.

In various circumstances, this is the case. In the US, it's when you get a divorce, or when a women says you raped her or beat her when you didn't. Or living under the knowledge that a women is able to have you carted off the prison at any time she pleases (see VAWA).

For me growing up (I have leftist parents) it's when the media you're exposed to pumps you full of conflicting images of what a man is supposed to be, leaving you with the feeling that it's impossible to live up to society's expectations of you, and you're a failure because you have a dick.

Or are suggesting that during some of my learning I had crazy feminist ideals pumped into me.

Yes

[SquiddyCracker]

And where have I done this? My point is the people who talk about these issues in length tend to be misogynistic assholes. If you find a group focused on these issues they shift the blame away from the actual sources and onto women/feminists. So once again if someone can actually link me to a number of positive MRA groups to counter all of the horrible ones I've come across, their message remains clouded with hateful bullshit rhetoric. Fuck. Again. Find me positive MRA groups. I dare you.

American Coalition of Fathers and Children?

We, the members of the American Coalition for Fathers and Children, hereby dedicate ourselves and our efforts to the creation of a family law system, legislative system, and public awareness which promotes equal rights for ALL parties affected by divorce, and the breakup of a family or establishment of paternity. It is our belief through our involvement and dedication, we can have a positive effect on the emotional and psychological well-being of children. We believe equal, shared parenting time or joint custody is the optimal custody situation. We believe the best parent is both biological parents. We believe grandparents should have rights and access to their grandchildren. We believe gender bias should be eliminated from family law and from future legislation. We believe BOTH biological parents should be responsible for the emotional and psychological well-being of their children, as well as financially responsible. We believe in the concept of fairness and equity in support for ALL families; and, that all children involved in a blended family should have equal rights, and do deserve equal rights and equal protection under the law. We believe child support orders should be reasonable, realistically reflect the cost of the children's basic needs, and reflect the relative parenting contribution of both parents in a shared parenting plan. We believe when parents are given equal rights, equal responsibility follows; when parents have equal access to their children and support levels are reasonable and reflect the true cost of raising a child, parents will comply with court orders. We believe when equity is created in our laws, the conflicts inherent in divorce situations dissolve and that, in the end, this is the greatest gift which we, as parents, could possibly bestow on our children.

It's potentially homophobic with the whole "biological" thingy, but that might just be misphrasing.
It's also not a catch-all MRA.

[Kano On The Phone]

Can we just discuss issues men face without the argument of whether a movement is or isn't necessary? Fuck.

The first thing in the OP is about movements, so not in this case. It's all about how the argument is framed.

[ivysaur12]

That's not what he's saying, he's saying that the very idea of men's rights is ridiculous. He wasn't responding to someone claiming that men have been "systematically disenfranchised", he's just been dismissing the whole notion of men advocating for their rights.

It's ridiculous that a majority group that has for the entirety of human civilization commanded and controlled every facet of the world claim that they lack rights.

The reality is a more egalitarian society that didn't rely as much on traditional gender roles would solve many of the societal issues that some men face, such as being seen as pedophiles when around children.

[lopaz]

Fuck. Again. Find me positive MRA groups. I dare you.

Define positive please.

[Jado]

From the other thread:

Where can I read more about men drawing the short straw in regards to education?

Boys Adrift: The Five Factors Driving the Growing Epidemic of Unmotivated Boys and Underachieving Young Men
http://www.amazon.com/Boys-Adrift-Ep...dp/0465072100/

Why Boys Fail: Saving Our Sons from an Educational System That's Leaving Them Behind
http://www.amazon.com/Why-Boys-Fail-...dp/0814420176/

The Trouble with Boys: A Surprising Report Card on Our Sons, Their Problems at School, and What Parents and Educators Must Do
http://www.amazon.com/The-Trouble-Bo...dp/0307381293/

http://www.prb.org/articles/2007/cro...mentrates.aspx

[Simplet]

And where have I done this? My point is the people who talk about these issues in length tend to be misogynistic assholes. If you find a group focused on these issues they shift the blame away from the actual sources and onto women/feminists. So once again if someone can actually link me to a number of positive MRA groups to counter all of the horrible ones I've come across, their message remains clouded with hateful bullshit rhetoric.

I don't know, you responded to me when I was arguing with those other people. I assumed you were trying to make some counter-point to what I was saying. If you're argument is to say that you've met a lot of women-haters in those groups, then great for you I guess. You have a low opinion of "manists", some people have a low opinion of feminists, all of this is really interesting but beside the point I was making.

[Dude Abides]

In various circumstances, this is the case. In the US, it's when you get a divorce, or when a women says you raped her or beat her when you didn't. Or living under the knowledge that a women is able to have you carted off the prison at any time she pleases (see VAWA). For me growing up (I have leftist parents) it's when the media you're exposed to pumps you full of conflicting images of what a man is supposed to be, leaving you with the feeling that it's impossible to live up to society's expectations of you, and you're a failure because you have a dick. Yes

It's shit like this that makes "MRM" difficult to take seriously.

[Gaborn]

fair enough but isn't child support supposed to do that? Alimony is support to be to help the ex get back on their feet and get established.

Yes and no. We were discussing changes to alimony. My position is "child support" should essentially be eliminated as a given and applied in a formula to alimony payments. Link the two because the way the state treats marriages has been and SHOULD be that people with children are given incentive to get married.

It seems to me that for someone that keeps a pretty staunch "bootstrap" approach to everything to come out and say "Alimony until the kid is 21. Are you kidding? Single moms need help!"

I don't think this is really a fair description of my position. I would say rather that I believe that generally the private sector is more efficient. I would ALSO say though that there are MANY cases where the government does a better job (for example I LOATHE the private prison system that has been exploding in popularity in this country). I would also say that philosophical discussions about the role of government inherently come down to "I think this would work" "I don't think this would work" and we get nowhere.

I think it's more productive to look at what the government is DOING and identify whether it is accomplishing its policy goals and if so whether it is doing so efficiently. I may not love the welfare state but SINCE it exists I think it is certainly rational to tailor it as needed.

[Karsticles]

Fuck. Again. Find me positive MRA groups. I dare you.

Why do I need to find a positive MRA group? Your claim was:

The thing is the vast majority of "men's rights" sentiments are shouted from the roof tops by disgusting people. This is just me being brutally honest.

So, it's a claim about the vast majority of people who even have these kinds of thoughts. There's nothing about the groups, which are likely often problematic. Perhaps necessarily, since there are inherent conflicts between men's and women's rights.

Those are not two mutually exclusive discussions.

Not always, but often. My post holds.

[ivysaur12]

In various circumstances, this is the case. In the US, it's when you get a divorce, or when a women says you raped her or beat her when you didn't. Or living under the knowledge that a women is able to have you carted off the prison at any time she pleases (see VAWA). For me growing up (I have leftist parents) it's when the media you're exposed to pumps you full of conflicting images of what a man is supposed to be, leaving you with the feeling that it's impossible to live up to society's expectations of you, and you're a failure because you have a dick. Yes

Stop. You're not doing yourself any favors.

[Devolution]

American Coalition of Fathers and Children? It's potentially homophobic with the whole "biological" thingy, but that might just be misphrasing. It's also not a catch-all MRA.

They're another group that endorses bullshit about VAWA.

So, it's a claim about the vast majority of people who even have these kinds of thoughts. There's nothing about the groups, which are likely often problematic. Perhaps necessarily, since there are inherent conflicts between men's and women's rights.

Yeah as in the people who tend to shout about these issues, meaning the large groups and their spokespeople are generally misogynists. It can change and I've been taking about men's issues in various other threads and this one with others. But so far the sites and groups that speak the loudest are not really conducive to real solutions and anything more than hateful shit levied at women/feminists.

[Rentahamster]

How about just a human's rights group. What a novel idea that would be.

[Steve Youngblood]

It's shit like this that makes "MRM" difficult to take seriously.

Yeah. That's not to say that there are no examples of abuse when attempting to take rape accusations seriously, but it's hard for me not to scratch my head in confusion when I see false rape charges being presented as some sort of pervasive threat that men everywhere should be terrified of.

[Sub_Level]

What the fuck is this? Do you think women are going out to fuck robots or something?

It's a common misconception to believe that the more women that get laid, the more men get laid. It's not a direct proportion.

It's more like there's a portion of men who get laid consistently. It seems easier to me for the average woman to get laid than it is for the average man, but I'm willing to look at counter-arguments and admit that I'm wrong, I'm only basing this off of my own life experience.

I'm not saying anything ridiculous like women should put out for everyone or that no men benefit from women getting laid (which is what your post seems to imply)

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

It's a common misconception to believe that the more women that get laid, the more men get laid. It's not a direct proportion. It's more like there's a portion of men who get laid consistently. It seems easier to me for the average woman to get laid than it is for the average man, but I'm willing to look at counter-arguments and admit that I'm wrong, I'm only basing this off of my own life experience. I'm not saying anything ridiculous like women should put out for everyone or that no men benefit from women getting laid (which is what your post seems to imply)

It's not up to women to find more men attractive.

[lopaz]

Stop. You're not doing yourself any favors.

Some reading for you :) http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism...he-war-on-men/

[ivysaur12]

Yeah. That's not to say that there are no examples of abuse when attempting to take rape accusations seriously, but it's hard for me not to scratch my head in confusion when I see false rape charges being presented as some sort of pervasive threat that men everywhere should be terrified of.

It's presented by some to be some worldwide epidemic and a conspiracy against men. Completely sickening.

Some reading for you :) http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism...he-war-on-men/

The fact that you believe this is some sort of conspiracy against men that puts you in shackles against the changing emotional whims of women everywhere is sickening and pathetic :)

[darscot]

Men Rights, its hard to even read with out laughing. I think the sexes are pretty even as far as society and the laws. Women have all the opportunities as a man does or pretty damn close. Groups to protect the rights of men, its hysterical if you need this shit your kinda missing the point of being a man.

[Simplet]

It's ridiculous that a majority group that has for the entirety of human civilization commanded and controlled every facet of the world claim that they lack rights. The reality is a more egalitarian society that didn't rely as much on traditional gender roles would solve many of the societal issues that some men face, such as being seen as pedophiles when around children.

So basically you admit that men have some issues that are special to them, you just refuse to accept that any of these come from anything else than patriarchy, and you have decided that the only way men are allowed to promote men's rights is through solving women's problems. This logic seems a little twisted to me but all right.

[JohnDoe]

Which gender gets laid more?

Men have more partners throughout their lifetime afaik? Even if women got laid more often, they'll immediately get slut-shamed by other people, men and women.

[Eschaton]

Men Rights, its hard to even read with out laughing. I think the sexes are pretty even as far as society and the laws. Women have all the opportunities as a man does or pretty damn close. Groups to protect the rights of men, its hysterical if you need this shit your kinda missing the point of being a man.

To be honest, one of the issues men face is the bolded. You're not a man if you ________, you're not a man if you don't _______. That shit holds us back in a lot of ways.

[Prost]

Some reading for you :) http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism...he-war-on-men/

Seems like a great source, just check out their banner:

[ronito]

Yes and no. We were discussing changes to alimony. My position is "child support" should essentially be eliminated as a given and applied in a formula to alimony payments. Link the two because the way the state treats marriages has been and SHOULD be that people with children are given incentive to get married.

This is interesting. I think I could sign up for this. It just seemed to me that take about a quarter of a guy's paycheck for child support and then another for alimony seemed excessive. But changing the way it works I'd sign up for.

I don't think this is really a fair description of my position. I would say rather that I believe that generally the private sector is more efficient. I would ALSO say though that there are MANY cases where the government does a better job (for example I LOATHE the private prison system that has been exploding in popularity in this country). I would also say that philosophical discussions about the role of government inherently come down to "I think this would work" "I don't think this would work" and we get nowhere. I think it's more productive to look at what the government is DOING and identify whether it is accomplishing its policy goals and if so whether it is doing so efficiently. I may not love the welfare state but SINCE it exists I think it is certainly rational to tailor it as needed.

Well you know you and I have our disagreements here. I'd still be up for making man-babies with you to bring balance to the force. However, I'm not paying any alimony to you. You can support yourself.

[ivysaur12]

So basically you admit that men have some issues that are special to them, you just refuse to accept that any of these come from anything else than patriarchy, and you have decided that the only way men are allowed to promote men's rights is through solving women's problems. This logic seems a little twisted to me but all right.

No. I'm advocating that there are issues that men face in society, including media representation, that are entirely removed from fundamental disenfranchising of civil rights.

[Devolution]

Seems like a great source, just check out their banner:

He tried to link me a spearhead list of misandrist sites in the other thread. I basically put him on ignore.

[lopaz]

The fact that you believe this is some sort of conspiracy against men that puts you in shackles against the changing emotional whims of women everywhere is sickening and pathetic :)

You don't find it disturbing that a man can be evicted from his home on a trumped up charge? Without evidence?

So basically you admit that men have some issues that are special to them, you just refuse to accept that any of these come from anything else than patriarchy, and you have decided that the only way men are allowed to promote men's rights is through solving women's problems.

LOL exactly. Classic doublethink

[macuser1of5]

Seems like a great source, just check out their banner:

Haha omg

[Jado]

Men Rights, its hard to even read with out laughing. I think the sexes are pretty even as far as society and the laws. Women have all the opportunities as a man does or pretty damn close. Groups to protect the rights of men, its hysterical if you need this shit your kinda missing the point of being a man.

You understand so little, if you think being a man automatically means you're living the good life.

[lopaz]

He tried to link me a spearhead list of misandrist sites in the other thread. I basically put him on ignore.

Did you look at it? I did reply you know :)

I said "Did the Spearhead make up the book titles?"

Regardless of the website, it's hard to dispute a bibliography

[ronito]

Seems like a great source, just check out their banner:

[Veezy]

In various circumstances, this is the case. In the US, it's when you get a divorce, or when a women says you raped her or beat her when you didn't. Or living under the knowledge that a women is able to have you carted off the prison at any time she pleases (see VAWA). For me growing up (I have leftist parents) it's when the media you're exposed to pumps you full of conflicting images of what a man is supposed to be, leaving you with the feeling that it's impossible to live up to society's expectations of you, and you're a failure because you have a dick. Yes

Divorce laws may need adjustment, depending on the state, but there's still plenty of examples of women being fucked over in divorce court. Sounds like that more of a problem with those laws then with mens overall ability to live equally to women being trampled upon.

You are aware that the percentage of false rape clams is incredibly low, akin to the false claims of other crimes, and the fact that rape is actually incredibly under reported, right? Like how a woman is more likely to be raped as a solider than killed in Afghanistan?

And are you honestly suggesting that women are using false domestic violence claims on such a wide scale to get men out of the house that the Violence Against Women Act needs to have men march up in anger against it?

Dude, I don't exactly know what your impression of what a man is supposed to be in this country, but it ranges from a dude living in a trailer park all the way up to being the President of the US. I've never had such a calling on my conscience due to being unable to live up to society's expectation of me. I've had plenty of sex, met plenty of women, have lived a good life, and have never been accuse of rape or beating anybody.

Seriously, it's not feminist ideals that have been pumped into my head. I just happen to be able to perceive what's actually a cause for concern.

EDIT: And for the record, there's already a mens' rights group. It's called the conservative party of the United States government. You're in good hands, don't you worry.

[darscot]

To be honest, one of the issues men face is the bolded. You're not a man if you ________, you're not a man if you don't _______. That shit holds us back in a lot of ways.

I'm not saying you have to do or not do anything to be a man. I'm just saying its pretty fucking good being one. There is not a damn thing holding back a man other then himself.

[Simplet]

No. I'm advocating that there are issues that men face in society, including media representation, that are entirely removed from fundamental disenfranchising of civil rights.

Well that's another interesting opinion. How come representation of women in the media is a problem of women's rights, but representation of men in the media is "entirely removed from fundamental disenfranchising of civil rights"?

[Timedog]

Not always, but often. Most post holds.

Most post holds?

If the father made a good-faith effort to not bring the child into the world, and was responsible about it even within a legal framework, then he is not "screwing the child over", the mother is by breaking the agreed upon contract (although I'm sure she isn't looking at it as screwing the child over by choosing to have him/her, I'm just using your words). She should have every right to do so.

In the event that both parties were irresponsible, then yeah, both parties need to be responsible. For 18 years.

Both questions you brought up are NECESSARILY woven into the fabric of the discussion. I don't see why you feel the need to separate them. They both need to be discussed and are different facets of the same issue.

[macuser1of5]

Wow that register-her site is a trip.

[Dude Abides]

Some reading for you :) http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism...he-war-on-men/

This collection of unsourced and inflammatory assertions has certainly convinced me.

It also says nothing about being hauled off to jail. Perhaps trouble with literacy is one of the struggles the castrating bitcherati have forced on us.

[TUROK]

It's a common misconception to believe that the more women that get laid, the more men get laid. It's not a direct proportion. It's more like there's a portion of men who get laid consistently. It seems easier to me for the average woman to get laid than it is for the average man, but I'm willing to look at counter-arguments and admit that I'm wrong, I'm only basing this off of my own life experience. I'm not saying anything ridiculous like women should put out for everyone or that no men benefit from women getting laid (which is what your post seems to imply)

There's one study (Clark and Hatfield 1989) that agrees with you, although it's not the most scientific of studies.

[Devolution]

Wow that register-her site is a trip.

It's seriously par for the course with these groups and people are trying to tell me different.

[Mudkips]

Of course not, that's why women got the right to vote at the same time as men did. Hey, wait a second...

In the west the right to vote has historically NOT been a universal right for men either. Men fought a long and hard battle to get that right expanded. It was originally a privilege for rich, propertied, white males of particular religions. Rights were gradually expanded after men served in little things like the revolutionary war, civil war, and world war I.

In England some women got the right to vote at the same time men got universal suffrage. Women got universal suffrage just 10 years after that. But I guess it's easier to paint a picture of all men being evil and withholding rights from women than it is to look at the actual history, and it's more convenient to point to a privilege that some men held over some women in the past than to acknowledge issues where men are disenfranchised and disadvantaged today.

haha it does NOT surprise me that this poster is coming out as an MRA.

haha it does NOT surprise me that your post is inflammatory, accusatory, and completely void of any argument, reason, or point. Whenever someone dares to point out issues that men face people will jump to attack.

[AShep]

I think you should be able to sign some form at the courthouse with your SO or whatever random girl you sleep with, where you both agree to an abortion if she get's pregnant, and absolving the male of parental responsibility if she changes her mind. A verbal contract should also work in this instance, but would probably be incredibly hard to prove. Just some sort of legal framework for responsibly getting out of having a child that neither of you originally wanted.

If only there were a surefire way to avoid getting a girl pregnant.

If you lack the self control to either wear a condom or abstain from the one activity that can create a child then tough shit.

Obviously condoms break but there are countless activities with the potential for a negative outcome and if you choose to take that risk, you deal with the consequences.

This assumes of course that you're serious.

[WorriedCitizen]

MRM and feminism. Both names are just PR desasters.
Maybe one day we will have open, honest and constructive discussions about equality issues that don't spiral reflex like into ridicule and belitteling when we stop using these gender biased labels for something that is about gender equality of all things.

[darscot]

You understand so little, if you think being a man automatically means you're living the good life.

I don't believe that at all, but I do believe that as a man there is not a damn thing that can stop me from having the life I want. I'm a white Canadian male, and I will concede that there are places that race and shit like that may make it harder for you, but come on your still a man.

[Dennis]

In the west the right to vote has historically NOT been a universal right for men either. Men fought a long and hard battle to get that right expanded. It was originally a privilege for rich, propertied, white males of particular religions. Rights were gradually expanded after men served in little things like the revolutionary war, civil war, and world war I. In England some women got the right to vote at the same time men got universal suffrage. Women got universal suffrage just 10 years after that. But I guess it's easier to paint a picture of all men being evil and withholding rights from women than it is to look at the actual history, and it's more convenient to point to a privilege that some men held over some women in the past than to acknowledge issues where men are disenfranchised and disadvantaged today.

Best post of the thread so far.

[Jado]

I'm not saying you have to do or not do anything to be a man. I'm just saying its pretty fucking good being one. There is not a damn thing holding back a man other then himself.

What are you basing this on, besides nothing?

[Mumei]

So basically you admit that men have some issues that are special to them, you just refuse to accept that any of these come from anything else than patriarchy, and you have decided that the only way men are allowed to promote men's rights is through solving women's problems. This logic seems a little twisted to me but all right.

It would be more accurate to say that our position is that men's issues (the real ones; not the ones that are just misogynistic whining disguised as issues advocacy) and women's issues are caused by by the same patriarchal system. Our perspective is that working on deconstructing patriarchy also benefits men. I wouldn't care if someone wanted to deconstruct patriarchy because doing such a thing would benefit men, while not caring a whit about what benefits it would have for women.

[Christine]

For me growing up (I have leftist parents) it's when the media you're exposed to pumps you full of conflicting images of what a man is supposed to be, leaving you with the feeling that it's impossible to live up to society's expectations of you, and you're a failure because you have a dick.

I hope you don't think this only happens to men, or even that it happens more to men more than it does women. Everybody gets their head filled with myriad and contradictory images about both genders, and everybody at times feels faced with impossible social expectations.

[Karsticles]

Most post holds? If the father made a good-faith effort to not bring the child into the world, and was responsible about it even within a legal framework, then he is not "screwing the child over", the mother is by breaking the agreed upon contract (although I'm sure she isn't looking at it as screwing the child over by choosing to have him/her, I'm just using your words). She should have every right to do so. In the event that both parties were irresponsible, then yeah, both parties need to be responsible. For 18 years. Both questions you brought up are NECESSARILY woven into the fabric of the discussion. I don't see why you feel the need to separate them. They both need to be discussed and are different facets of the same issue.

My* - thanks.

It doesn't matter whether the mother broke the contract. The end result is a disadvantaged child. You can either impair the father in favor of the child, or impair the child in favor of the father. They are, very often, mutually exclusive options.

I know they are interwoven. My point was that you were simultaneously trying to defend both. If it's better for the child to be supported, then the child should always be supported, regardless of who is at fault. That is assuming you take the welfare of the child seriously, of course.