[Margalis]

but Superman has had stories like that where people wonder about his motives and his "plans" and etc, etc. whether they are up to your high standards is another matter.

Part of the point of his comments is that movie studios would never allow a $200 million Superman movie that dealt with that sort of stuff to be made.

[NinjaBoiX]

"it's comic book. It's for kids. It's adolescent in its core."

What a cack movie. Mortensen is rubbish, Cronenberg is a hack. "Oh look, some body horror, aren't I edgy!"

[I Push Fat Kids]

hey guys, when i was 8 i read a thread on neogaf for 3 seconds and i knew it was a troll thread when nobody else did... not even the 12 million others reading and responding to it


but i really care about all 12 million you enough to spend the next 2.45 hours learning that life exists and that there's something beyond this island we call neogaf

[SilentProtagonist]

I'm not seeing it because it's not there. You can't possibly believe that someone who has worked on a comic book movie, even if he only found out after the fact, would make that statement apply to all works in that medium, especially when he's providing proper context to support it. The worst that he can be accused of is using a broad term to describe something more specific, and that's not worth even the attempt of trying to discredit him.

Is this the same old coot who thought that Chris Nolan has done anything with 3D movies?

[Bombadil]

I just want to say that there is a difference between graphic novels and comic books.

It's not a matter of being pretentious, though some will think of me that way for saying that the quality of most self-styled graphic novels is far better than that of regular issue comic books.

You can find examples of extremely shitty graphic novels and examples of really great issues of comics, but in general I think that more serious artists and writers gravitate toward making graphic novels.

Comic books have to constantly re-invent their characters by adding in sidekicks, removing sidekicks, rebooting themselves, having flashback issues, including time travel, alien invasions, etc.

A graphic novel is a self-contained story focusing on either an original character or an existing character that has been re-imagined for the purpose of telling a grand story.

I don't see the same level of quality in standard issue comics.

[Caesnd]

Forgoing the hows and whys in defining the recent superhero movies, I've yet to hear a good explanation as to why material designed to be enjoyed by children can't appeal to adults as well, or why said adults are looked down upon/ridiculed for enjoying these works. It's all quite silly, and frankly, it seems like a non-issue to me. There is nothing to gain by imposing your own differing tastes on other people.

[SonicMegaDrive]

It's not a matter of being pretentious, though some will think of me that way for saying that the quality of most self-styled graphic novels is far better than that of regular issue comic books.

Generally, I think you're absolutely right.

[NinjaBoiX]

hey guys, when i was 8 i read a thread on neogaf for 3 seconds and i knew it was a troll thread when nobody else did... not even the 12 million others reading and responding to it but i really care about all 12 million you enough to spend the next 2.45 hours learning that life exists and that there's something beyond this island we call neogaf

[HK-47]

I just opened up to the chapter on ad hominem. Would you care to explain it to me?

I dont think I could explain it to a person who cant understand how generalization and skimming and personal bias and ignorance dont give you a solid perspective or ground to stand on against people trying to have a real conversation. But feel free to continue practicing half a dozen logical fallacies.

[Metalic]

The Dark Knight Rises doesn't have to be art, it is a darker and slightly more realistic look at the superhero genre, sure Nolan' s bat movies are the best comic book story to ever put on film, but it's not deep enough to be an art film like "The tree of Life."

[Parallax]

I read. Grown-up books.

This line. Its absolutely hilarious.

[I Push Fat Kids]

wtf man

at the age of 8 years old-ish ROBIN has the intuition 12 million gotham city residents don't. despite the fact Batman's identity is relevant enough for them to stop their entire police force when he reappears for the first time in 8 years. not only that, but he reappears on the same night Bruce Wayne reappears after X years and it's in the middle of someone attempting to collapse the nation's economic warehouse nearby.

also, let's introduce the rest of america and it's military to this formerly island-ish world so that we can affirm this 2.45 movie really sucked and make us believe that memento really wasn't even that good


/more than a comic book movie

[Freezie KO]

I dont think I could explain it to a person who cant understand how generalization and skimming and personal bias and ignorance dont give you a solid perspective or ground to stand on against people trying to have a real conversation. But feel free to continue practicing half a dozen logical fallacies.

Well, the evidence you've provided in favor of the maturity of the superhero genre has been overwhelming. I'll have to rethink my position.

[HK-47]

Well, the evidence you've provided in favor of the maturity of the superhero genre has been overwhelming. I'll have to rethink my position.

I'm not gonna put my effort into trying to convince some who using arguments like (to paraphase) "I skimmed watchmen and wasnt impressed with what I saw" or "it has a naked blue man in it, thats proof that its childish" or asserting superiority with immature statements like "I read grown up books." Maybe when you have something substantial, I'd give my counterpoint. Right now I have nothing to counter but gaping ignorance and generalization.

[Freezie KO]

I'm not gonna put my effort into trying to convince some who using arguments like (to paraphase) "I skimmed watchmen and wasnt impressed with what I saw" or "it has a naked blue man in it, thats proof that its childish" or asserting superiority with immature statements like "I read grown up books." Maybe when you have something substantial, I'd give my counterpoint. Right now I have nothing to counter but gaping ignorance and generalization.

Out of context, paraphrased quotes, and that's not even all I said. I was asked the LAST comic I read, and replied honestly with the Watchmen thing. That's not to say I've never read a comic. Although, admittedly, I haven't read all of them in the world.

As for reading, I was accused with a snarky comment that I don't read and only watch films, so I replied in kind.

My evidence is the films I've seen based on the source material, the source material I have read, and, judging by people like you, the sniping defensive immaturity of the target audience. So I'm waiting for the one superhero book that isn't wasting its time pandering to adolescent fantasies.

[bunbun777]

It is fine but the adolescent/ cape analogy is so tired when used as a descriptor for comics. He should know better but guess not. Where's my Sandman adaptation? Where's my Hunter Rose or Stray Bullets or Astro City or THB or Madman?
--edit--poster above me, keep waiting.
---double edit---there is no difference between comics and graphic novels. It is a marketing term and was originally used for reprinted collections of serialized comics. If artists want to make a single volume 96 page comic and print it in a larger format that's great. Don't like the term comics? It's just sequential art.

[Vice]

Out of context, paraphrased quotes, and that's not even all I said. I was asked the LAST comic I read, and replied honestly with the Watchmen thing. That's not to say I've never read a comic. Although, admittedly, I haven't read all of them in the world. As for reading, I was accused with a snarky comment that I don't read and only watch films, so I replied in kind. My evidence is the films I've seen based on the source material, the source material I have read, and, judging by people like you, the sniping defensive immaturity of the target audience. So I'm waiting for the one superhero book that isn't wasting its time pandering to adolescent fantasies.

How far into Watchmen did you get?

[Freezie KO]

How far into Watchmen did you get?

Being completely honest, I don't even remember. As a film junkie, I had heard this was THE comic book. When I first read Snyder was doing this epic film, I remember going to Barnes and Noble to check out what everyone was talking about.

[IrishNinja]

I just want to say that there is a difference between graphic novels and comic books. It's not a matter of being pretentious

let me stop you right there
i wanna say you meant "super-hero comics" but even then there's creator-owned stuff like invincible, and even then:

A graphic novel is a self-contained story focusing on either an original character or an existing character that has been re-imagined for the purpose of telling a grand story.

so where does that put Hellblazer? Authority? Miracle Man? etc...this definition isn't so good when dealing with an entire medium.

[Mister Saturn]

Being completely honest, I don't even remember. As a film junkie, I had heard this was THE comic book. When I first read Snyder was doing this epic film, I remember going to Barnes and Noble to check out what everyone was talking about.

With a book as dense as Watchmen, you're not going to get anything out of it if you just, "thumb through," while at Barnes & Noble.

[Jo Shishido's Cheeks]

I haven't experienced such a barrage of ridiculous posts since the last time somebody said video games were toys.

[Trent Strong]

I haven't experienced such a barrage of ridiculous posts since the last time somebody said video games were toys.

They should be games. Unfortunately, a lot of developers are trying to make them into movies.

[Beepos]

Interesting... I'm not even going to touch the Batman quote... but

While I'm not going to beat a dead horse we all know The Prestige was better than Memento as Nolan's best film.

If not simply for Hugh Jacksman's lines.

'You don't know!"
'It was for the look on their faces!'

[OrangeGrayBlue]

A writer is handicapping himself by immediately divorcing himself from the human experience, but it can surely be done. Kafka, Huxley, even Cronenberg's The Fly, speaking of insects. But we're not talking about fantastical elements. We're talking about superhero comic books. Nothing I've read or seen of Superman has convinced me that this mythology could be elevated to what Cronenberg is talking about as a higher level of art. I suppose you could put a guy in a cape in the background, focus on a family coming to terms with the appearance of a deity in a godless world, and you might have the seeds of something. But you could hardly call it Superman at that point.

In the case of Watchmen, the divorcing of the human experience is used to extrapolate upon very human emotions, as well as to deconstruct the superhero genre. You can argue against other examples in the comic book genre if you wish, but to denounce what is often regarded as one of the best novels of the last 100 years, illustrated or otherwise, because you skimmed through it and weren't impressed is silly. The book touches on themes of nihilism, the logical inconsistencies of a God, the futility of vigilantism, feelings of detachment from society, the flaws of nationalism, etc. You're simply not going to pick up on that by flipping through the pages.

[Phat Michael]

hes absolutely right. boring film, terribly written and edited. nolan peaked at memento and hasnt made anything worthwhile since.

[OrangeGrayBlue]

hes absolutely right. boring film, terribly written and edited. nolan peaked at memento and hasnt made anything worthwhile since.

[zoukka]

Naked Lunch is Cronenbergs finest creation.

And I can buy people thinking Nolan Batman's are among the best of superhero genre. It's just that this genre is shit in general.

[SteveWD40]

hes absolutely right. boring film, terribly written and edited. nolan peaked at memento and hasnt made anything worthwhile since.

I do this only for The Prestige:

[Ridley327]

Is this the same old coot who thought that Chris Nolan has done anything with 3D movies?

It was a weird comment to make, but since it was based off an article he read in a cinematography magazine that was about the challenges of shooting in alternate formats, I can easily see why he lumped them in together to talk about Nolan.

[BagSquad]

oh look a thread full of people with bad taste on neogaf, how suprising

[daviyoung]

In contrast Cosmopolis is for one person only: David Cronenberg.

[Riposte]

Never listen to indies.

[Traumnovelle]

So you're saying that David Cronenberg is the Jonathan Blow of cinema?

Note: I do not think that.

[linsivvi]

hes absolutely right. boring film, terribly written and edited. nolan peaked at memento and hasnt made anything worthwhile since.

The Prestige and Insomnia are good movies, and Batman Begins is pretty good (certainly the best of the trilogy).

It is very clear that Nolan is never going back to making movies like Memento though, unfortunately.

[pants]

In the context of holding Batman up to the world as something like art, I agree with Cronenberg. It's not meant to be judged in that category of film. All superhero comics being childish? Come on son, go read some Daredevil (to use a popular book).

[Malvolio]

He sounds pretty much spot on to me. Film was fluff and that was to be expected, but it's really not even that great as fluff goes. I still like Nolan, but I think he had a chance to elevate the genre and instead just catered to the typical superhero fan. Still entertaining, but I was a bit let down.

[Red Liquorice]

Super hero movies are dumb fun - either you like that, or you don't. But they're all dumb fun, The Dark Knight is just as one dimensional as any other super hero blockbuster.

[Count Dookkake]

Naked Lunch is Cronenbergs finest creation. And I can buy people thinking Nolan Batman's are among the best of superhero genre. It's just that this genre is shit in general.

In a genre of shit, it is at best corn.

[The Bookerman]

What lies. the man speaks the truth. Some people prefer to have a thoughtful script that makes you think, than 250 mill thrown at the screen.

And you think that even stuff like inception or The prestige don't have a thoughtful script?

What is wrong with you boy?

[Bombadil]

let me stop you right there i wanna say you meant "super-hero comics" but even then there's creator-owned stuff like invincible, and even then: so where does that put Hellblazer? Authority? Miracle Man? etc...this definition isn't so good when dealing with an entire medium.

Yes, super-hero comics made by Marvel tend to be mediocre offerings.

Hellblazer, which is not a Marvel-owned work, is an exception because it has standard issues but it also has a graphic novel feel. It does not deal with super heroes and tends to attract high profile writers and artists. John Constantine was created by Alan Moore and you can see the quality in the work.

Edit: I just read more on MiracleMan. I didn't know it's history. It's much longer than I thought it was. MiracleMan used to be Marvelman. Anyway, just reading through some synopsis on Wikipedia tells me that Alan Moore and Neil Gaiman's involvement in the series brought a much more serious tone to the work, setting it apart from the kind of stuff I read in Spiderman comics and pretty much all other Marvel comics.

It's funny, because I mentioned that there are exceptions in my first post but you chose not to quote those in order to question my post.

[Freshmaker]

The Dark Knight Rises doesn't have to be art, it is a darker and slightly more realistic look at the superhero genre, sure Nolan' s bat movies are the best comic book story to ever put on film...

You act like Mask of the Phantasm doesn't exist.

[Messofanego]

You act like Mask of the Phantasm doesn't exist.

Return of the Joker is better, but love them both.

[PK Gaming]

[Poimandres]

No argument Dude. Really. I mean, compare it to the original. It's like Carpenter's "The Thing." It's not even in the same ballpark. TDK and TDKR are honestly the same. Even if you compare them to Burton's work, much less Schumacher (sp?). Take an inferior interpretation of a story, remake it into something great. What does Cronenberg hate the cape in particular? Because I think I saw it all of 20 minutes in TDKR, max. It's just a crotchety old dick guy move interview comment to make, man. Fucking six pages, I'm not reading this shit. Someone Clockwork Orange Mr. Cronenberg in a room with Adam West 1960's Batman for like a few days and then lat's talk about this shit. It is the same. And Momento matches Dead Ringers, we all put out commercial stuff to finance the personally-motivated stuff, and if we are to really be admired, we put our stamp on both. Old man Cronenberg threatened by young superstar Nolan. Film at eleven. Six fucking pages. Get a beer gentleman. Joooooooiiiiiin mmeeeeee....... EDIT: Also, where are your Avatars? I can't trust people without AVATAAAAAAARS!!!!

I don't think Cronenberg is "threatened" by Nolan or slagging him out. He just doesn't go for flims like TDKR, finds them safe and boring while admiring more inventive works like Memento. He even throws is some compliments for Nolans skills with the camera.

If you read the full interview, it becomes clear that he doesn't like the idea of 20 suits shadowing your every move with a film because they have a vested interest. That's what "comic book films" are to him.

Also... Nolan has some way to go before matching Cronenbergs filmography ;)