[Count Dookkake]

Most people are just acknowledging that the Batman trilogy is obviously smarter and more mature than what you'll see from other comic superhero films. This is where it gets most of its credit. No reason to get upset about it.

Yeah, firm stool is preferable to loose stool.

I'm not sure I follow. Comics cost the same on the Marvel & DC apps.

Kids often have things that they don't pay for.

These things may cost many times more than a comic book.

[Stet]

I don't think I'd say Nolan's movies, or TDKR specifically, did that though. They explored the archetypes in some interesting ways but I'm really hard pressed to call anything about them subversive.

I meant comic books, like V for Vendetta, Watchmen, the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, The Invisibles, Preacher and the Dark Knight Returns.

[JoeBoy101]

Comics are for kids? Nah. Rises was Boring? Yeah. Memento was awesome? Yeah.

I support this post.

[thabiz]

I'm not sure I follow. Comics cost the same on the Marvel & DC apps.

He's stirring the pot.

[Count Dookkake]

He's stirring the pot.

lol, no.

[thabiz]

lol, no.

Touche

[Dany M]

Most people are just acknowledging that the Batman trilogy is obviously smarter and more mature than what you'll see from other comic superhero films. This is where it gets most of its credit. No reason to get upset about it.

One of the reasons why I enjoy it more than other superhero films, it doens't treat me like a 11 year old.

[thabiz]

One of the reasons why I enjoy it more than other superhero films, it doens't treat me like a 11 year old.

All superhero movies treat you like an 11 year old. It's at their core. Massive suspension of beliefs and facts, that go against the act of growing up.

[Stet]

All superhero movies treat you like an 11 year old. It's at their core. Massive suspension of beliefs and facts, that go against the act of growing up.

The same could be said of just about every single Cronenberg film ever, but that's not a mark against them. This is the same tired argument against speculative fiction that's been going on for centuries.

[CFK]

ART the quality, production, expression, or realm, according to aesthetic principles, of what is beautiful, appealing, or of more than ordinary significance. any field using the skills or techniques of art: advertising art; industrial art. ALL film is art.

TDKR is not high art then, or great art. There must be some kind of differential because you can`t seriously suggest TDKR, jack and jill, or something like The Godfather are the same level of art.

Only a Sith deals in absolutes :P

[zoukka]

One of the reasons why I enjoy it more than other superhero films, it doens't treat me like a 11 year old.

Still far from treating you like an adult.

[Count Dookkake]

The same could be said of just about every single Cronenberg film ever, but that's not a mark against them. This is the same tired argument against speculative fiction that's been going on for centuries.

Perhaps, but Cronenberg isn't praised for "teh realism!"

[Futureman]

I pretty much agree. They are very good action/superhero films, but in the end that's really all they are. I have no interest in ever seeing them again.

[thabiz]

The same could be said of just about every single Cronenberg film ever, but that's not a mark against them. This is the same tired argument against speculative fiction that's been going on for centuries.

every single Cronenberg film ever? Or just the ones that are sci fi?

I think you are painting a broad stroke against his work.

[Quackula]

every single Cronenberg film ever? Or just the ones that are sci fi? I think you are painting a broad stroke against his work.

against?

he specifically said "that's not a mark against them"

[Stet]

every single Cronenberg film ever? Or just the ones that are sci fi? I think you are painting a broad stroke against his work.

And yet the fundamental point of my post goes unmentioned...

[Razek]

TDKR is not high art then, or great art. There must be some kind of differential because you can`t seriously suggest TDKR, jack and jill, or something like The Godfather are the same level of art.

We can't use broad definitions for the explanation of art. Throwing one dictionary definition in here just doesn't work. Art is a personal thing, and that is the only logical method of perception. Any other method leads to a slippery slope of "what is art?"

ART the quality, production, expression, or realm, according to aesthetic principles, of what is beautiful, appealing, or of more than ordinary significance. any field using the skills or techniques of art: advertising art; industrial art. ALL film is art.

How about a film about empty beer cans? How about just a blank reel of black frames?

[Dany M]

All superhero movies treat you like an 11 year old. It's at their core. Massive suspension of beliefs and facts, that go against the act of growing up.

Still far from treating you like an adult.

At least Nolan treats us as a smart 11 year old.

[thabiz]

TDKR is not high art then, or great art. There must be some kind of differential because you can`t seriously suggest TDKR, jack and jill, or something like The Godfather are the same level of art.

This is correct, but it still falls with the person viewing the art.

This thread and his quote are completely pointless. Art is subjective.

[Johnny Cage In The Shower]

Croneneberg is one of my favorite directors alive, I don't want to sound biased but I see where he is coming from, his style of filmmaking is very different than Nolan's Batman movies ( note I specifically said Nola's Batman movies, not some others like Memento).

Again being a fan, I can only guess that he is jealous, since most of his movies attack the psyche of larger than life characters, people with deep obsessions, fetishes and issues. Basically people like Bruce Wayne.

So he probably thinks he can make a wicked Cronenbergesque style film telling the story of Bruce Wayne and Batman. It will be nothing like the comics or anything close to what we expect from an action Batman film, but I am willing to bet he just thinks it would be cool to make a weird Batman movie, (albeit a commercially disaster film) and he knows no studio will ever give him the license to make that movie, so he is just talking out of his ass.

[zoukka]

Commercial art.

You guys are welcome.

[thabiz]

How about a film about empty beer cans? How about just a blank reel of black frames?

Still art.

Go to a art gallery. My dog has done better paintings. But its still art.

Art cant always be defined by visual merits. It also has to take into the meaning that the artist is trying to convey.

[CFK]

We can't use broad definitions for the explanation of art. Throwing one dictionary definition in here just doesn't work. Art is a personal thing, and that is the only logical method of perception. Any other method leads to a slippery slope of "what is art?

Exactly, which it`s why this argument is silly. Art is a personal perception thing. You can`t just call everything that is on film art simply because it is on flm.

[Dany M]

The worst conversation to have ever is "What is art? Is this art?"

[Razek]

Still art. Go to a art gallery. My dog has done better paintings. But its still art.

Exactly, which it`s why this argument is silly. Art is a personal perception thing. You can`t just call everything that is on film art simply because it is on flm.

I'm willing to put it this way: everything has the potential to become art (Since it is personal perception).

I won't say that everything already is art.

[Bgamer90]

lol @ people criticizing a summer popcorn action movie as "not high art".

Of course it isn't "sophisticated" high art... it's an action movie!

With that said, I enjoyed the movie very much.

[thabiz]

Exactly, which it`s why this argument is silly. Art is a personal perception thing. You can`t just call everything that is on film art simply because it is on flm.

All film is art. Now i think where the debate lies is "is it good art". Which is what i think Cronenberg is trying to say. He's not discrediting the films based on artistic merit. He just doesnt think its good.

[UrbanRats]

Before Rises came out I read a lot of stuff about how while The Avengers was a fun comic book movie the Nolan Batman movies were something more -

"Extraordinary big in scale! This ain’t movie anymore, this is the reality of the world we live in. Not a fiction in Gotham City, it is the city we live tomorrow. Not merely a movie based on American Comics, it is the story of our shadow and hope."

[Dan]

Geez, he's specifically talking about studio-driven superhero movies. I think he's being a bit harsh with Nolan's Batman, but c'mon, he's mostly right. At the end of the day, the superhero movies adapted from comics made by Hollywood studios have to be acceptable for adolescents (physically or mentally). It's the nature of huge budgets and extremely valuable intellectual property. There's only so much freedom given to work with that.

And all of this stemmed from some silly journalist asking Cronenberg if he would direct a superhero movie. Who would even want that? I dream of him being given tons of freedom and money for various projects, but in reality, his charms would be neutered by the studio. The things people love about Cronenberg would be pushed to irrelevance if he was working with a well known superhero in the studio system.

[WonkersTHEWatilla]

It's a shame to me that he has such a narrow view of superhero stories because one of his own films, A History of Violence, has a lot in common with your standar superhero film. A man with an alter ego who clashes with bad guys from his past. A protagonist who struggles with duality and keeping secrets from his loved ones. Having to stop the ultimate bad guy, who is just a more extreme version of what the protagonist was, and would have become.

All that's missing the cape and tights.is that really the sole detail that limits superhero films/comics?

[WillyFive]

How about a film about empty beer cans? How about just a blank reel of black frames?

Worse have been seen in art house theaters.

[water_wendi]

He is right.

[thabiz]

I'm willing to put it this way: everything has the potential to become art (Since it is personal perception). I won't say that everything already is art.

All art is art. It's up to the viewer to judge the merits of the work in levels of "good" or "bad". You cant say its not art because you don't like it. You just don't like what the artist is saying.

[evilromero]

He is criticizing those that say TDKR is cinema art. I believe he is absolutely correct in his opinion. It's a movie based on a kids comic book trying to shoehorn a guy in a rubber into a dramatic film. That's why many of us believe Burton's films were better adjusted for a comic book story.

[thabiz]

Worse have been seen in art house theaters.

I literally watched a movie of a close up of an eyeball for 48 min. With some woman rambling on for the duration.

[CFK]

He is criticizing those that say TDKR is cinema art. I believe he is absolutely correct in his opinion.

This is what some people have failed to see.

[Stet]

It's a movie based on a kids comic book

Buhhhhhhhhhh and this is why it was stupid thing for him to say. Because people repeat it.

[Angry Fork]

I was with him when he praised Memento until he brought himself back down by saying Batman is stupid and comic books are for kids. Someone force him to read sandman.

[thabiz]

This is what some people have failed to see.

Ahhh, but what is "cinema" art. is it a black frame for 2 hours or is it the Godfather.

This thread could go on for a life time. We are arguing one of the most subjective things that you can argue.

It is really refreshing to see this kind of debate on a message board though. I usually have to go to a coffee house to get this level of art discussion.

[Quackula]

I was with him when he praised Memento until he brought himself back down by saying Batman is stupid and comic books are for kids. Someone force him to read sandman.

Guy adapted A History of Violence. I'm sure he knows well that comics aren't necessarily for kids.

I want to say that it was probably a slip of the tongue/comment taken out of context or something.

[WonkersTHEWatilla]

He is criticizing those that say TDKR is cinema art. I believe he is absolutely correct in his opinion. It's a movie based on a kids comic book trying to shoehorn a guy in a rubber into a dramatic film. That's why many of us believe Burton's films were better adjusted for a comic book story.

It's a comment on his view of superhero comics as a whole and how limited he percieves them to be (just for kids).

TDKR may have failed to elevate superhero comics into 'high art', as Cronengerg says, but superhero comics hardly needed the help to do that anyway. There are so many mature and realistic superhero comics out there that are widely accepted by adults who believe them to be more than juvenile fluff. Your V For Vendettas, your Batman: Year Ones and Dark Knight Returns, your Kingdom Comes, your Watchmens. etc etc.

[DeathNote]

How the hell do you manage being a 70 year old indie filmmaker?

[CFK]

Ahhh, but what is "cinema" art. is it a black frame for 2 hours or is it the Godfather. This thread could go on for a life time. We are arguing one of the most subjective things that you can argue. It is really refreshing to see this kind of debate on a message board though. I usually have to go to a coffee house to get this level of art discussion.

lol. I meant that that was what he was criticizing. But yes, I get you. jajajaj

This is an argument with no end. Basically what Dany M said.

[Stet]

How the hell do you manage being a 70 year old indie filmmaker?

You become Canadian.

[thabiz]

Guy adapted A History of Violence. I'm sure he knows well that comics aren't necessarily for kids. I want to say that it was probably a slip of the tongue/comment taken out of context or something.

I think hes completely aware of what he is saying. And i do have to agree with him, for a very long time comics and therefore superheroes by proxy, are for kids.

We also have to take into account that this guy isn't 25-35. Different times lead to different opinions.

[thabiz]

lol. I meant that that was what he was criticizing. But yes, I get you. jajajaj

I know what you meant. I was just being cheeky.

[Razek]

All art is art. It's up to the viewer to judge the merits of the work in levels of "good" or "bad". You cant say its not art because you don't like it. You just don't like what the artist is saying.

What is 'art'?

The word becomes meaningless due to the slippery slope if we just say 'all art is art'. I just threw a empty bottle lid on the ground. It's art because it speaks about my unwillingness to conform to societies standards of cleanliness. My house is art. The earth is art. The universe is art. Everything in existence is art. When do we stop?

I argue that art can take any form as long as there is an individual willing to accept it. Meaning, you don't have to be an artist and be purposely making art to make art. Hence, nothing is art until there are individuals willing to claim it as.

To be fair though, this is just a semantics argument at this point.

[Johnny Cage In The Shower]

How the hell do you manage being a 70 year old indie filmmaker?

You don't succumb to the pressure of money and big studios and only make movies you want to make? And be Canadian a.k.a be cool.

[krameriffic]

It's a comment on his view of superhero comics as a whole and how limited he percieves them to be (just for kids). TDKR may have failed to elevate superhero comics into 'high art', as Cronengerg says, but superhero comics hardly needed the help to do that anyway. There are so many mature and realistic superhero comics out there that are widely accepted by adults who believe them to be more than juvenile fluff. Your V For Vendettas, your Batman: Year Ones and Dark Knight Returns, your Kingdom Comes, your Watchmens. etc etc.

I think the more interesting question for him is not whether Nolan's Batman films are high art, but what he thinks could elevate them to that level. The TDK series is head and shoulders above most of the big budget comic book movies out there, but it still has the fairytale trappings of most comic book movies. That element is subdued under some darkness and despair, but it's certainly still present.

[thabiz]

I argue that art can take any form as long as there is an individual willing to accept it. Meaning, you don't have to be an artist and be purposely making art to make art. Hence, nothing is art until there are individuals willing to claim it as.

Bingo!

If i say its art. its art.