[Nirolak]

I know people really like discussing Mass Effect 3's ending here, so I thought you might find this interesting.

There's *a lot* more at the link about a series of other topics including his new novels, graphics, game writing, KotOR, and Victor Antonov.

On Mass Effect 3, that ending and backlash BioWare once intended Mass Effect 3 to end differently than it did. One possible ending concerned the spread of Dark Energy - a force used for mass effect fields and biotic powers. It goes that Reapers were created to stop the spread of Dark Energy, which would ultimately destroy everything. That's why Reapers, every 50,000 years or so, processed (turned into a Reaper) an entire species - to slow the spread of Dark Energy. The Human Reaper was to be the last throw of the dice for the Reapers. The ending of Mass Effect 3 would be you deciding whether to sacrifice the entire human race, and create a Human Reaper, or take your chances that humanity could come up with another alternative. That ending, Drew Karpyshyn came up with. It was one of several, apparently. In response to that being aired, Drew Karpyshyn wrote a lengthy blog post on his website. "Yes, we had a plan, but it was very vague. We knew we wanted to focus on some key themes and bring in certain key elements: organics vs synthetics; the Reapers; the Mass Relays. Beyond that, we didn't go into detail because we knew it would change radically as the game continued to evolve," he explained. He revealed that Cerberus had been "basically a throwaway group of pro-human radicals" used to add spice to some Mass Effect 1 side-missions. "We didn't even have a concept of who was running them," Karpyshyn shared, "and we didn't think they were that important. Obviously, by the time of my Ascension novel and ME2, that had changed radically. The Illusive Man and Cerberus became central to the story and themes - that never would have happened if we had nailed everything down and refused to make changes to the story." "So," his post concluded, "I don't like to say 'here's what we originally were thinking', because it gives a false and very distorted impression of the process. Mass Effect was the creation of a huge team, with contributions coming in from many people at many stages of the project. Some things I liked ended up getting cut, some stuff I wasn't sure of worked its way in. That's the nature of the beast with collaborative works, and in the end it makes the final product stronger. "But talking about the changes after the fact feels like I'm sitting on my throne and proclaiming, 'That's not what I would have done!' It's easy to sit on the sidelines and say 'I would do this or that', but it's very different when you're part of the process, working with multiple ideas, trying to piece it all together and still hit your deadlines. "Anyone who wasn't part of the ME3 team is an outsider - even me - and whatever they say about the creation of the game is just unsubstantiated speculation." Drew Karpyshyn hadn't had time to play Mass Effect 3 when he wrote that post in March. Unfortunately, he still hasn't. "I still haven't played ME3, so I don't want to comment on it. My schedule is packed for the next year or so - I've just finished another Star Wars book (Star Wars: Annihilation, due November), and I'm currently working on my own original fantasy trilogy. That doesn't leave me a lot of time to play games," he told me. "From what I've heard, they did go in a different direction than what we had originally planned, but that's not surprising - projects evolve, and you rarely end up in the place you expected when you first started." Under immense fan pressure, BioWare chose to extend the Mass Effect 3 ending. Was it right from an artistic integrity standpoint to do that? To my mind, it looked like a partial admission of guilt. "Again, this is something I don't really want to comment on. Not being part of the team means I don't know what the original plan was, or how they reacted to or interpreted the fan reaction," tiptoed Karpyshyn. "I will point out that this has happened before, and not just in video games. Movies often re-shoot endings based on test audiences, and Arthur Conan Doyle was forced to resurrect Sherlock Holmes after fans were outraged by his death in one of his books. "Whether these changes are an admission that something was wrong is really up to the artists involved, so I don't feel comfortable weighing in as an outsider." It must have been tough for Mass Effect 3 writers facing the ire of fans. Here are the very people they'd spent years crafting a story for, hoping that they would enthral and entertain. I asked Drew Karpyshyn what it was like to face negative feedback like this. "Every project I've ever done has lots of negative feedback and lots of positive feedback. That's the nature of the beast," he remarked, "not everybody likes the same thing. "That's why I write things that I personally like and am proud of. Trying to guess what people will like or dislike is a fool's game; as an artist you want something you are proud of. That makes it a lot easier to withstand the criticisms. Fortunately, everything I've worked on so far has fallen under that umbrella, so I've never had anything I've regretted or been ashamed of." By the time critical reaction to a game comes in, Karpyshyn revealed, "we're many, many months away from the actual writing". "Usually, by the time people start seeing something and giving feedback, I'm well into the next project, so you kind of tend to stay focused on that," he told us. "Of course you are aware of the general reaction, and you do read people's posts and comments online. But any pride or anger you get is rather fleeting - it's not something that leaves a memorable impression or an indelible memory." ... On never saying never How BioWare will fare without Drew Karpyshyn, we will come discover. How Drew Karpyshyn will fare without BioWare, we will also come to know in time. But the two may not be parted for good. "I never say never, so it's possible I will go back," he admitted. "Right now, I'm focusing on my novels, and I don't feel that urge to return to games. But down the road if the bug returns, I might take another crack at games. And if I ever do, BioWare is probably the most likely place for my return.

Source: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/20...drew-karpyshyn

[Lothars]

I would have loved to see how the games would have turned out with Drew Karpyshyn, I really liked his writing.

[LiK]

I think I read about this before. Good to see it come up again.

[Patryn]

I kind of figured that they were making it up as they went along when the Cerberus of ME2 bared little to no resemblance of the Cerberus of ME1.

[Guerrillas in the Mist]

Interesting to hear about things like the expansion of Cerberus. I did find it strange that they took centre stage in ME2 after being of virtually no significance in the first game.

I kind of figured that they were making it up as they went along when the Cerberus of ME2 bared little to no resemblance of the Cerberus of ME1.

Yeah, they went from being a small group of nutjob terrorists to a political/economic force backed by important figures with a strong paramilitary wing. I'm surprised they didn't just invent a new group.

[EmCeeGramr]

I kind of figured that they were making it up as they went along when the Cerberus of ME2 bared little to no resemblance of the Cerberus of ME1.

And then the Cerberus of ME3 went from a cash-strapped minimalistic network of covert agents to an army larger than many small countries.

[ShutEye]

It still doesn't make sense to me how the ending isn't even consistent with the rest of ME3 let alone the other games. The ending just feels like it was made in a bubble.

[Jarmel]

I think I read about this before. Good to see it come up again.

Yea it's pretty old. The topic has been discussed to death. I was hoping for new news on this front but I doubt he'll ever say more.

It's painfully obvious that ME2 was built around the original dark energy ending.

[WonkersTHEWatilla]

For a game that was supposed to be about stopping the Reapers, Cerberus took the spotlight throughout most of ME3.

[Orayn]

This just feeds my "Mass Effect = Gurren-Lagann" conspiracy theory.

[Schweinehund]

This seems like a better ending to me.

A real reason why you would want to continually purge living species.

[JustinBB7]

..Isn't that pretty much the same as the ending we have now? Only with 2 options instead of 3 (4)? And Black instead of Blue/White/Red.

[Trigger]

So can we stop pretending organics vs synthetics was the driving theme now?

[Crewnh]

It still doesn't make sense to me how the ending isn't even consistent with the rest of ME3 let alone the other games. The ending just feels like it was made in a bubble.

That's because it was made in a bubble with Hudson and Walters.

[Meccanical]

For a game that was supposed to be about stopping the Reapers, Cerberus took the spotlight throughout most of ME3.

Mac Walters man.

[Durante]

I kind of figured that they were making it up as they went along when the Cerberus of ME2 bared little to no resemblance of the Cerberus of ME1.

Yeah, not to mention that Cerberus in ME1 was utterly, unabashedly evil and my Paragon Shepard wanted to wipe them out. The only way I could deal with ME2 is by imagining they actually had successfully brainwashed her when rebuilding her.

[Derrick01]

Bioware was never the same after he left. Granted the gameplay wasn't really affected by him but the writing across all of their games took a dramatic nosedive after he quit.

[Bornstellar]

TBH, the original ending sounds pretty stupid.

[inky]

For a game that was supposed to be about stopping the Reapers, Cerberus took the spotlight throughout most of ME3.

Because humans!

Such a wasted universe... literally.

[DerZuhälter]

This story ending sounds so perfectly in line with Mass Effect 1.

Remember, you weren't primarly Earth's hero. You were a Spectre who sometimes did some side missions for human command. Sounds to me like the ultimate choice for the ending. Not very sophisticated, but effective.

[Bisnic]

Seems like he doesn't say much actually. But seeing how if he ever go back to writing video games stories, he would go back to Bioware give me hopes. Hopefully they will get him for next-gen ME4, i love what he did in the first Mass Effect.

[EmCeeGramr]

Yeah, not to mention that Cerberus in ME1 was utterly, unabashedly evil and my Paragon Shepard wanted to wipe them out. The only way I could deal with ME2 is by imagining they actually had successfully brainwashed her when rebuilding her.

"Cerberus? I think I remember you guys."
-Paragon Sole Survivor Shepard who did all the Cerberus missions in ME1

It's funny how they covered their asses on that aspect by having Miranda try and explain away all the experiments and completely ignoring the Sole Survivor aspect until Lair of the Shadow Broker, where they actually acknowledged it by calling Shepard a hypocrite as though you actually had a choice.

[WonkersTHEWatilla]

..Isn't that pretty much the same as the ending we have now? Only with 2 options instead of 3 (4)?

A short one-sentence description of an idea for an interview is not a detailed plan. It probably would've been expanded upon for the actual game, but it doesn't exist. I would think it would've flowed more naturally then "hey, I'm the Catalyst, you have 3 options, guy."

[Karak]

I really would have liked the entire arc to have been from his head. The sense of continuity game to game, storywise, just isn't very strong.

[Patryn]

"Cerberus? I think I remember you guys." -Paragon Sole Survivor Shepard who did all the Cerberus missions in ME1 It's funny how they covered their asses on that aspect by having Miranda try and explain away all the experiments and completely ignoring the Sole Survivor aspect until Lair of the Shadow Broker, where they actually acknowledged it by calling Shepard a hypocrite as though you actually had a choice.

Don't forget that great moment in ME3 when Shepard's like "Remember when I joined Cerberus? God, what was I thinking? That was hilarious and wrong. But mostly just wrong."

[_Keiichi_]

So, they didn't know what the fuck they were doing.

Breaking news!

[Jarmel]

I really would have liked the entire arc to have been from his head. The sense of continuity game to game, storywise, just isn't very strong.

I somewhat disagree. ME1 and ME2 had a decent sense of continuity. This original ending would have tied ME1 and ME2 together. ME2 had shit loads of foreshadowing about dark energy and it was apparent that it was going to be used in act 3. As it stands now, ME2 is a big sidemission. With a dark energy ending, it would have painted ME2 in a whole new light. Walters/Hudson decided to scrap it.

This reeks of Walters trying to leave his own mark on the trilogy instead of doing what should have been natural.

[Samara]

"Cerberus? I think I remember you guys." -Paragon Sole Survivor Shepard who did all the Cerberus missions in ME1 It's funny how they covered their asses on that aspect by having Miranda try and explain away all the experiments and completely ignoring the Sole Survivor aspect until Lair of the Shadow Broker, where they actually acknowledged it by calling Shepard a hypocrite as though you actually had a choice.

The idea that this is never questioned is mind numbing.

ME2's story is garbage. Nothing is learned or gained other than knowing that collectors used to be protheans. How in hell is this supposed to help stopping the reapers?

[BruceLeeRoy]

Everytime I am about to fire up this game I think about all the negative feedback and instead I go back to Rayman.

[Bisnic]

I somewhat disagree. ME1 and ME2 had a decent sense of continuity. This original ending would have tied ME1 and ME2 together. ME2 had shit loads of foreshadowing about dark energy and it was apparent that it was going to be used in act 3. Walters/Hudson decided to scrap it. This reeks of Walters trying to leave his own mark on the trilogy instead of doing what should have been natural.

Didn't Drew participated in ME2 story? I remembering seeing his name along with Mac Walters in ME2 credits. That might explain why Dark Energy still seemed somewhat important.

[Jarmel]

The idea that this is never questioned is mind numbing. ME2's story is garbage. Nothing is learned or gained other than knowing that protheans used to be collectors.

Again that seemingly wasn't supposed to be the takeaway. The crucial bits it seems were supposed to be the dark energy in Tali's mission and the suicide mission location(with the dark energy).

Didn't Drew participated in ME2 story? I remembering seeing his name along with Mac Walters in ME2 credits. That might explain why Dark Energy still seemed somewhat important.

Indeed he did. Chris Priestly on BSN confirmed it awhile ago that Drew worked on ME2 for awhile and then got switched over to TOR.

[Patryn]

Didn't Drew participated in ME2 story? I remembering seeing his name along with Mac Walters in ME2 credits. That might explain why Dark Energy still seemed somewhat important.

Yes. I believe both he and Walters were credited as lead writers.

[KarmaCow]

TBH, the original ending sounds pretty stupid.

I haven't played Mass Effect 3, nor do I plan on doing so anytime soon but it does sound almost as dumb as the one we got.

Vaguely science-y term being the real big bad vs killing off civilizations before they kill themselves. It's lose-lose.

Maybe I missed it or it's explained in ME3 but I never got why the Reapers needed people juice to make new Reapers. Seems like a horribly inefficient and illogical way to create more Reapers.

[firehawk12]

You know, for all the talk of ME1 being the best... there's also the fact that he basically ruined Revan and Exile in his Star Wars books. :p

[Trigger]

The series was always based on quasi-scientific mumbo jumbo. Dark energy would've made more sense from a continuity perspective. I can also accept the idea of reapers being created to preserve races and stop the spread of dark energy vs reapers killing us to stop us from being killed. Where is that Xhibit pic at?

Everytime I am about to fire up this game I think about all the negative feedback and instead I go back to Rayman.

I feel the same honestly.

[Cat Party]

Doesn't the guy basically say not to call that the original ending, as it was just a rough idea among several others?

[BattleMonkey]

I really would have liked the entire arc to have been from his head. The sense of continuity game to game, storywise, just isn't very strong.

Yes don't know if it would have been actually good, but with him in the lead there likely would have been far more continuity in the story and overall a more cohesive feeling to the saga. Drew K fairly simple with his plots, but he makes good fun reads usually.

You know, for all the talk of ME1 being the best... there's also the fact that he basically ruined Revan and Exile in his Star Wars books. :p

I don't think he ruined anyone, it was the games that kinda forced it as he was just writing a book to fit the gap between the KOTOR games and TOR. The whole thing felt like a check list of things to get done to explain the going ons for the MMO. And really Revan was fine in the book, it was the handling of the Exile that got most people pissy. Drew only had a small part in the storyline of TOR

[Jarmel]

Doesn't the guy basically say not to call that the original ending, as it was just a rough idea among several others?

If you look at ME1 and ME2, dark matter is clearly where the story was heading towards. It seems that it was what they were planning but Drew is trying to not burn his bridges. Legion's writer(I can't remember the guy's name as he's French) is the one who outed the idea that dark matter was the original ending.

[Dresden]

Not that Karpyshyn is a great writer, but at least it would've been better than what we got in ME3.

I hope.

[sflufan]

The fact of the matter is that there was absolutely no way this series was going to have a completely "satisfying" ending simply because of the inherent nature of the situation. Every possible ending would have involved some kind of eye-rolling deus ex machina type trope.

[sTeLioSco]

but but what about the original vision and stuff!!11
artistic integrity!


they made up stuff as they go.end-product fail.payroll-journalists and viral marketers tried to make it look like a landmark story.

[John Harker]

I kind of figured that they were making it up as they went along when the Cerberus of ME2 bared little to no resemblance of the Cerberus of ME1.

Things like that tend to happen in real life... radical groups often see a huge influx of supporters and volunteers in the face of grave danger, i.e. the extinction of your entire race. I actually thought the growth and influence of Cerberus was really well handled and actually made a lot of sense, given the challenges the galaxy was facing.

The council wasn't doing much at all to help anyone, and the human govt' was pretty much wiped out. Cerberus likely made an attractive alternative to a lot of very scared people.

[Jarmel]

The main problem with ME3 wasn't even about the size expansion of Cerberus as the game went to extraordinary lengths to establish how Cerberus got that huge overnight. The problem is that this was the central focus of the game even over the Reapers for the most part. Cerberus derailed ME3 as it became less about uniting the races and more about house-cleaning on the part of the humans. This made the game having a more terrestial feel compared to ME1 or even ME2.

[Mindlog]

Things like that tend to happen in real life... radical groups often see a huge influx of supporters and volunteers in the face of grave danger, i.e. the extinction of your entire race. I actually thought the growth and influence of Cerberus was really well handled and actually made a lot of sense, given the challenges the galaxy was facing. The council wasn't doing much at all to help anyone, and the human govt' was pretty much wiped out. Cerberus likely made an attractive alternative to a lot of very scared people.

The execution isn't great, but I agree. In general this Cerberus is far more interesting than some throwaway bad-guys. I always wanted Cerberus to be the plausibly denied 'wet work' unit. Give some of their evil experiments positive results (Sirta Foundation.)

The main problem with ME3 wasn't even about the size expansion of Cerberus as the game went to extraordinary lengths to establish how Cerberus got that huge overnight. The problem is that this was the central focus of the game even over the Reapers for the most part. Cerberus derailed ME3 as it became less about uniting the races and more about house-cleaning on the part of the humans. This made the game having a more terrestial feel compared to ME1 or even ME2.

I can see that perspective, but almost every mission that Cerberus is involved with is directly tied to the Reapers. I place more blame on gathering the coalition of the willing (even though that arc had some great scenes.)

[firehawk12]

The main problem with ME3 wasn't even about the size expansion of Cerberus as the game went to extraordinary lengths to establish how Cerberus got that huge overnight. The problem is that this was the central focus of the game even over the Reapers for the most part. Cerberus derailed ME3.

I'd argue that it derailed ME2 as well.

[inky]

The fact of the matter is that there was absolutely no way this series was going to have a completely "satisfying" ending simply because of the inherent nature of the situation. Every possible ending would have involved some kind of eye-rolling deus ex machina type trope.

Not necessarily. It only happened that way because they wanted to be all philosophical about it. Yes, the origin of the reapers still would've been convoluted, but the endings could have been simple, super direct, action oriented ones in which you exactly what you set out to, which is kill the reapers at whatever cost. Although I guess you are right about the "satisfying" part of it. The problem I think was, that there wasn't equivalent gameplay to go along. In ME2 for example, the ending was super dumb, but the action accompanying it and the decision making involved made it memorable and fun to play. It didn't have the nice villain from ME1, but it did have the gameplay to support it.

[Dresden]

The fact of the matter is that there was absolutely no way this series was going to have a completely "satisfying" ending simply because of the inherent nature of the situation. Every possible ending would have involved some kind of eye-rolling deus ex machina type trope.

I think people would've been fine with a DEM end if it hadn't involved one of the dumbest reveals ever in the history of the genre.

[truly101]

I kind of figured that they were making it up as they went along when the Cerberus of ME2 bared little to no resemblance of the Cerberus of ME1.

Its weird that the Cerberus of ME3 has a lot more in common with the one in ME1 and there is a disconnect between those and the one in ME2. Other than TIM, you never get the idea organization is ethically bankrupt and evil

[BattleMonkey]

The main problem with ME3 wasn't even about the size expansion of Cerberus as the game went to extraordinary lengths to establish how Cerberus got that huge overnight. The problem is that this was the central focus of the game even over the Reapers for the most part. Cerberus derailed ME3 as it became less about uniting the races and more about house-cleaning on the part of the humans. This made the game having a more terrestial feel compared to ME1 or even ME2.

Think they just kinda felt stuck with the reapers since hey were not very interesting villains. Giant mecha space squids who are just going to kill everything in sight doesn't put much of a face on a villain, as with ME1 they had to use Sarin. With ME2 and 3 they needed a new main face to be a talking villain that players dealt with, as the reapers were not really something you could have much interaction with. So Cerebus became the face of the enemy which ME3 spends the whole time trying to explain and connect to the reapers.....

[Bisnic]

Yes. I believe both he and Walters were credited as lead writers.

Walters probably wrote the main story while Drew did all the side stuff. Which would explain why the main story(Shepard is Space Jesus, "Cerberus is good is swear", Terminator giant!) sucks and the "sidequests"(recruit, loyalty) stories are better. :lol