[jgminto]

So I should probably start this out by saying that I am not anti-religion. I don't believe it and I don't think it should have power but people can believe whatever they want.

This thread is about my sister. Hey if you're reading this, sis! She started at a new school this year, second term if I remember correctly. But the thing is, it's an extremely religious school. Now I didn't have a problem with this initially, she went to a catholic school previously, as did I. But now she's become extremely religious since she's gone there. She started going to Youth, attending a church in our town and seeming more and more devout each day. I assumed this was just what is popular at her school so she went along with it but now I'm not so sure.

About a week or two ago she told me that she wanted to drop out of school and work on her musical career "because it was God's plan for her." I of course told her that was a stupid idea and that she should stay in school. I don't know what she thought of my slightly hypocritical opinion, I dropped out of school last year, but she hasn't brought that up again.

She's also gotten incredibly defensive about anything remotely related to her religion, telling me that I wouldn't get it because I'm not Christian, even though I considered my self as such only a few years ago. I don't even have a problem with her being Christian but it seems she's taking it way to seriously. Oh, she also got a purity ring from her church. I don't know if she'll stick to that or not, but I did have a right old chuckle when I saw it.

And then I went to her church. Apparently her church wasn't weird like the one at her school, apparently they speak in tongues there. Can't say I really wanted to go but I was in town when she needed to be there and I thought it could be an interesting experience at least. Holy shit was it bizarre. If you took all of the beliefs I have right now and changed the opinion to the exact opposite, you'd have something that resembled what they talked about during that sermon. It was a few nights ago, so I can't really remember any exact quotes but I'll try to remember it as closely as I can

• The pastor started with how we need to give ourselves over to God and that this world isn't right and is influenced by the Devil and we shouldn't let it corrupt our views

• He then describes "God's plan for us" and how we shouldn't question it

• He also goes into how disasters can happen so we will come back to God. Seems like someone loves being the centre of attention

• After that he discusses how our planet is in the perfect point for us to be living and that if it were off even a fraction there would be no life and that it is a miracle that Earth exists

• And to round it up he discusses how if sex outside of marriage were made illegal, it would eradicate disease, abortions, etc. I would have liked to hear how he even thought that would be possible

That's all that I can remember right now. Now maybe it's just my only basic experience with religion, but it was a real eye opener. This is what my sister is being told to believe. And while I don't want to make decisions for her, she's on her own journey and she'll have her own experiences and learn from them, I can't help but be a little concerned after hearing the stuff she's gotten so enthusiastic about.

So GAF, any tips regarding my sis? Should I do anything or just leave her be. And have you dealt with anything similar?

Also no pics, she's 15 you sick bastards!!

[Horse Armour]

If she's 15, can she even legally drop out of school?

[Dice]

I was active in ministry for 15 years and now I'm an atheist. I could sort her out.

BTW my whole childhood and 5 years of that ministry was with charismatic pentecostals, so I'm well aware of how they work, too. She has no "you're ignorant" defense against me.

[jgminto]

If she's 15, can she even legally drop out of school?

If she has a full time job or a trade, I believe she can this year or next year. But it's not like our mother would let her.

[siddhu33]

In this case, you're gonna have to provide her with critical thinking skills. The mind is like clay; malleable and Changeable young, but gets harder to change as you get older. Why do you think old people believe all kinds of bullshit? They have decades of bullshit indoctrination.

There are many who can overcome their prejudice at an old age, but it takes some doing.

[Vice]

Try showing her information about other religions. Maybe it will help her realize that they're all pretty much the same. Or, see if she has any other interests and try to get her to spend more time with that.

Alternatively just let her do her thing. She'll probably get over it and find something new to obsess over, it may just end up being a fad for her.

[jgminto]

Try showing her information about other religions. Maybe it will help her realize that they're all pretty much the same. Or, see if she has any other interests and try to get her to spend more time with that. Alternatively just let her do her thing. She'll probably get over it and find something new to obsess over, it may just end up being a fad for her.

That's what I've been thinking, but she just gets so damn defensive about it whenever it's brought up. It's probably just because she's a teenage girl.

[Log4Girlz]

If it were my sister I would cut her out of my life...she has been corrupted.

[jgminto]

If it were my sister I would cut her out of my life...she has been corrupted.

Well, if you say so.

[Vice]

That's what I've been thinking, but she just gets so damn defensive about it whenever it's brought up. It's probably just because she's a teenage girl.

As long as she doesn't cut herself off from her non-religious friends she won't plunge headfirst into the whole "fire and brimstone. God hates this. I'm going to not do x, y and z and if you do them you're a horrible person" type of personality.

Just make sure you let her know there's more than one way to live a good life and that not all of them involve religion.

[jaxword]

You can't change other people.

ESPECIALLY about religion.

Most atheists and non-religious people overestimate their debating and convincing skills. If it were as easy as logic and reason, religion would've vanished ages ago.

The most effective way to show her your way of thinking is the correct way is to live AS GOOD A LIFE AS YOU CAN.

This means being as moral, honest, and smart with everything you do.

Do that, people look at you and give you credibility. Credibility means "Maybe he's right after all" when they start to question whose way is right.

She's also so young...she'll be a completely different person in 5 years as is, so you may not NEED to do anything.

[mik83kuu]

If she's not harming anyone I don't think you should intervene. It's her life and if she wants to dedicate it to religion it's her choice. Of course you can still tell her how you feel and perhaps tell her to take it easy :-)

[JokerOfSpades]

Nothing you do will matter unless she drops it on her own. My whole family is Christian, so trust me on that one.

[The M.O.B]

So it's one of THOSE threads again.

Let her do what she wants.

[CrushDance]

If she's not harming anyone I don't think you should intervene. It's her life and if she wants to dedicate it to religion it's her choice. Of course you can still tell her how you feel and perhaps tell her to take it easy :-)

Hi gay people. Hi minorities.

But as others are saying, not much you can do. Let her live her life and hope that she'll come to find out what's best for her. Just make sure you help her by being there and steering her away from the psychos.

[jgminto]

As long as she doesn't cut herself off from her non-religious friends she won't plunge headfirst into the whole "fire and brimstone. God hates this. I'm going to not do x, y and z and if you do them you're a horrible person" type of personality. Just make sure you let her know there's more than one way to live a good life and that not all of them involve religion.

I don't think she's that into it yet. She still laughs when I make jokes about the church. And funnily enough, she is actually pro-gay, or at least she was, I haven't asked in a while.

If she's not harming anyone I don't think you should intervene. It's her life and if she wants to dedicate it to religion it's her choice. Of course you can still tell her how you feel and perhaps tell her to take it easy :-)

Yeah. I don't really have a problem with her being religious. I'm actually the only atheist in my family.

[Log4Girlz]

If she's not harming anyone I don't think you should intervene. It's her life and if she wants to dedicate it to religion it's her choice. Of course you can still tell her how you feel and perhaps tell her to take it easy :-)

I have to agree that if someone is not actively harming someone, you shouldn't really try to change someone. You can accept them or not. I personally would not accept a close family member or friend suddenly becoming very religious unless they kept completely quiet about it. The moment they make it a big deal or try to convert me, then I cut off all relations as I believe religion is horrible.

[Rentahamster]

And to round it up he discusses how if sex outside of marriage were made illegal, it would eradicate disease, abortions, etc. I would have liked to hear how he even thought that would be possible

Hahaha, how quaint.

I dunno what to tell you, OP. Try to expose her to influences that will help her to think logically somehow...debate club maybe?

You can discuss religion with her, but don't come off as disdainful of religion or make it seem like you look down on her because of it. Just try to plant seeds of doubt regarding the more outrageous notions she's being fed. Present counterexamples, and try to get her to think through the ideas fully.

[cutmeamango]

Just tell her a proper education will only help her musical formation and career and as her brother, you'll be there to auxiliate in her difficulties (if any) of handling both.

[nateeasy]

So what's the problem?

[jaxword]

So what's the problem?

She may end up really undeservedly smug and condescending on the internet!

[RagnarokX]

A few years ago my mom started dying from cancer. She was never super religious; she grew up in a family where her parents used religion as an excuse for their poverty to keep their kids from wanting or wasting. She was only religious around her family. But fearing eternal damnation, she decided to start going to church on Sundays, praying before meals, and having the family pastor visit to pray for her. Although it never came out in the open, my refusal to accompany my parents to church made her realize I wasn't religious and it really strained our relationship in her final year. Rather than religion bringing her comfort it just made her afraid to have fun in her final days and worried about our souls.

[OttomanScribe]

Give it time, and give her support. The young often fall into extremism, regardless of the religion, but they burn out pretty quickly. There are worse things she could be doing at that age trust me.

What is the problem? Is she harming you? Is the church (other than appearing to you a bit wacky) teaching her anything that will harm her?

If not, then just be around and give her support for what is usually the inevitable come down.

[OttomanScribe]

I have to agree that if someone is not actively harming someone, you shouldn't really try to change someone. You can accept them or not. I personally would not accept a close family member or friend suddenly becoming very religious unless they kept completely quiet about it. The moment they make it a big deal or try to convert me, then I cut off all relations as I believe religion is horrible.

Wow. That is so hardcore.

[jgminto]

So what's the problem?

I'm just worried she'll let it dominate all aspects of her life.

A few years ago my mom started dying from cancer. She was never super religious; she grew up in a family where her parents used religion as an excuse for their poverty to keep their kids from wanting or wasting. She was only religious around her family. But fearing eternal damnation, she decided to start going to church on Sundays, praying before meals, and having the family pastor visit to pray for her. Although it never came out in the open, my refusal to accompany my parents to church made her realize I wasn't religious and it really strained our relationship in her final year. Rather than religion bringing her comfort it just made her afraid to have fun in her final days and worried about our souls.

That really sucks. I can't imagine it being easy to grow apart from a family member, especially at a time like that.

[daviyoung]

Haha, what a perfect GAF thread.

She's 15 OP, soon she won't be able to resist carnal sin and mind-expanding atheism-enhancing soft drugs.

[vulva]

Hi gay people. Hi minorities. But as others are saying, not much you can do. Let her live her life and hope that she'll come to find out what's best for her. Just make sure you help her by being there and steering her away from the psychos.

her wanting a musical career hurts gay people?

[jgminto]

Haha, what a perfect GAF thread. She's 15 OP, soon she won't be able to resist carnal sin.

That's why I was a bit shocked by the purity ring. It just seemed so ridiculous.

[Log4Girlz]

Wow. That is so hardcore.

If someone bugs me with religious babble and attempts to convert me or insinuates I am somehow immoral for not following their beliefs, then yes I must become teh hardcorez.

[jaxword]

Wow. That is so hardcore.

How do most conservative Muslims react if a member decides to escape the religion and become nonreligious/atheist/etc.?

[ShadyMilkman]

Hi gay people. Hi minorities. But as others are saying, not much you can do. Let her live her life and hope that she'll come to find out what's best for her. Just make sure you help her by being there and steering her away from the psychos.

I get the "gay people" part, but I don't get that minority part. Aren't large amounts of the hispanic population Catholic?

[CrushDance]

her wanting a musical career hurts gay people?

Read again what he posted? The preacher and some of the things she's brought up are only the beginnings of a long road.

I get the "gay people" part, but I don't get that minority part. Aren't large amounts of the hispanic population Catholic?

And so are a lot of Koreans and blacks. Let either of those three walk into a "real church" and let's see what happens! I don't mean to horribly derail, but the so called shared belief and "All Gods children' doesn't extend as far as you're lead to believe from words.

How do most conservative Muslims react if a member decides to escape the religion and become nonreligious/atheist/etc.?

Yeah. I was about to comment on that. Two way street.

[vulva]

Read again what he posted? The preacher and some of the things she's brought up are only the beginnings of a long road.

I read it fine the first time, just re-read. She's a young teenager who has found something she identifies with. The biggest concern he has is that she's looking to drop out of high school for a musical career. Tell me which gay people or minorities she's actively harming by doing so.

[Prez]

Are you against freedom of religion? Your attitude is fucking horrible.

[CPS2]

I don't really get why pursuing music means dropping out of school. Couldn't she keep studying and then get into courses that would be useful in that industry?

[jgminto]

Are you against freedom of religion? Your attitude is fucking horrible.

:( No.

I don't really get why pursuing music means dropping out of school. Couldn't she keep studying and then get into courses that would be useful in that industry?

I think she views it as God's plan for her, and as such she wouldn't need a backup. Or at least I think that's her reasoning.

[Prez]

:( No.

Then respect other people's choices. It's not as if she joined a cult.

[Dice]

Then respect other people's choices. It's not as if she joined a cult.

You aren't very familiar with how pentecostals often operate, are you?

[jaxword]

Then respect other people's choices. It's not as if she joined a cult.

What religion are you?

[CrushDance]

I read it fine the first time, just re-read. She's a young teenager who has found something she identifies with. The biggest concern he has is that she's looking to drop out of high school for a musical career. Tell me which gay people or minorities she's actively harming by doing so.

S But now she's become extremely religious since she's gone there. She started going to Youth, attending a church in our town and seeming more and more devout each day. About a week or two ago she told me that she wanted to drop out of school and work on her musical career "because it was God's plan for her." She's also gotten incredibly defensive about anything remotely related to her religion, telling me that I wouldn't get it because I'm not Christian, Oh, she also got a purity ring from her church. If you took all of the beliefs I have right now and changed the opinion to the exact opposite, you'd have something that resembled what they talked about during that sermon. The pastor started with how we need to give ourselves over to God and that this world isn't right and is influenced by the Devil and we shouldn't let it corrupt our views He then describes "God's plan for us" and how we shouldn't question it [LIST]And to round it up he discusses how if sex outside of marriage were made illegal, it would eradicate disease, abortions, etc. I can't help but be a little concerned after hearing the stuff she's gotten so enthusiastic about.

So he's just concerned for no reason? "Something she identifies with". Really now? How far does this path lead if this is only the beginning? What beliefs or sins from the devil could the world possibly be influenced by...

Edit: I would like to say for the sake of clarity that I'm not saying that religion is bad. I seriously don't care at all. What I am saying is that the pastor dude sounds insane and this young girl is already being molded into something that doesn't sound good at all.

[vulva]

So he's just concerned for no reason?

When did I say he's concerned for no reason? I said the main concern here is that she's feeling that she's looking to drop out of school for a musical career because of her suddenly heightened faith. I don't mean to speak on the OP's behalf, but that's the feeling I'm getting from him.


Now, tell me again, how she's hurting minorities and gay people. You haven't actually answered that yet.

edit: replied before you added everything in.

So she's harming gay people based on your speculation of a girl you've never met and know basically nothing about?

[Prez]

What religion are you?

I'm not religious.

You aren't very familiar with how pentecostals often operate, are you?

But is it that? Maybe she's found a place where she feels accepted by everyone around her. That's something to be happy for. Yeah you can draw comparisons with cults there but you don't know if it's anything like that.

[CPS2]

I think she views it as God's plan for her, and as such she wouldn't need a backup. Or at least I think that's her reasoning.

Imo you should tell her that if her music career fails, it's proof that God doesn't exist.

[OttomanScribe]

How do most conservative Muslims react if a member decides to escape the religion and become nonreligious/atheist/etc.?

I would say that there are a range of reactions, but from personal experience (one of my family no longer considers themselves Muslim) the thought of completely disassociating myself from them is horrifying.

They are family.

Additionally, if your implication is 'conservative Muslims kill people that leave the religion', then surely that is not a model that should be followed by atheists?

It is a non sequitur.

Or maybe you aren't actually making this as a point, but rather just a random soapbox?

If someone bugs me with religious babble and attempts to convert me or insinuates I am somehow immoral for not following their beliefs, then yes I must become teh hardcorez.

You would disassociate yourself with a close family member because they did so? Why must you?

[jgminto]

I'm not religious. But is it that? Maybe she's found a place where she feels accepted by everyone around her. That's something to be happy for. Yeah you can draw comparisons with cults but you don't know if it's anything like that.

I'm just concerned, is all. I wanted to know if any gaffers have had family or friends who have done similar. If she really enjoys it, I'd never try to stop her, that just isn't my style.

[Prez]

Btw sorry for being rude OP, I know you're just concerned and care about your sister but it's most likely nothing to worry about.

[V_Arnold]

Every time I click on something like this, I am expecting something exotic, but it usually is about devout christians, with a fear-based spin, as usual.

As far ast the Pastor is concerned, if your sister is not closed off of hearing others opinions, then you can explain to her that there are different personality type in the world, and some of them are strongly attached to the idea that everything that happens to them happens thanks to and through an outside power. Some name it God, others name it Krisna, others call it Drug, some have Money labelled on it, some has Social Acceptance, Power , Fame, or anything like that carved on it - the thing is that they are designed in a way that makes them suspectible to teachings that cater to this type of personality.

You can ask her: how do you feel about yourself being in power? How do you feel about attributing both your successess and your failures, both your ambitions and your lacks of it, both your fears and your joys to yourself?

You do not need to convert her (and in fact, not only you should not, but if you go around this the wrong way, you will only cement her), all you need to do is to plant the seeds of ideas that there are other alternatives besides being a corrupted hellmonger and the obedient Saved One. If she resonates with the Bible best, then she will go that way, so that you cant change.

Be supportive above all, because that is what she will need if real problems arise.

[CrushDance]

When did I say he's concerned for no reason? I said the main concern here is that she's feeling that she's looking to drop out of school for a musical career because of her suddenly heightened faith. I don't mean to speak on the OP's behalf, but that's the feeling I'm getting from him. Now, tell me again, how she's hurting minorities and gay people. You haven't actually answered that yet. edit: replied before you added everything in. So she's harming gay people based on your speculation of a girl you've never met and know basically nothing about?

That is the main concern you got from that? Not the whole "Evil beliefs" nonsense and spouting off about purity? Just stop and think for a moment what topics he could possibly be referring too. What topics so many pastors constantly bring up.

I didn't say she was harming anyone. Just not yet. Only that she seems to be in way over her head and the atmosphere described is not that in which a 15 y/o girl or anyone should be learning about Christianity. It reeks of the crazy things being said all the time by more prominent speakers. There is a whole lot in the first post that goes beyond just "Dropping out of school to pursue music". What kind of pastor even encourages that? Oh right. One that wants sheep.

Edit: And for the last time. She can be of faith and be a great person. There is no argument there. I just don't think that she should be attending that specific Church and listening to that specific pastor. He does not seem to be looking out for her best interests.

Edit2: And I like how you're assuming that she's some paragon of justice and virtue for simply starting off on the path of faith. Neither of us knows her. We only know what the OP has said. And you're not acknowledging the crazy present in his ramblings for some reason. Or unless you truly believe that the issues of homosexuals for example will never, ever be brought up in 2012 along with the word "sin". She's too young to be fed all of this information and beliefs from someone like that.

[Log4Girlz]

I would say that there are a range of reactions, but from personal experience (one of my family no longer considers themselves Muslim) the thought of completely disassociating myself from them is horrifying. They are family. You would disassociate yourself with a close family member because they did so? Why must you?

I have no tolerance for proselytizing. I have no tolerance and insinuations that I am somehow a lesser person and am facing an eternity in hell fire for not believing in their religion. Now, if a family member were devout but was very respectful and does not try to convert me, then hey no worries.

Edit: And really, she's not doing so. If she were my sister I wouldn't cut her out yet. So I take back my first post.

[Zaptruder]

My family isn't hyper religious or anything, but I just don't bother engaging them at all in that stuff. It's almost like they aren't even religious anymore.

Except when the casually drop this religious tidbit here or there. I just ignore it.

They haven't been tempted to argue about religion with me - because my response is a quick skewering of the nature of faith - i.e. "do you think there's any amount of logic or rational thought that can get you to give up your faith?"

"No..."

"Then there's no point arguing about it."