[vulva]

That is the main concern you got from that? Not the whole "Evil beliefs" nonsense and spouting off about purity? Just stop and think for a moment what topics he could possibly be referring too. What topics so many pastors constantly bring up. I didn't say she was harming anyone. Just not yet. Only that she seems to be in way over her head and the atmosphere described is not that in which a 15 y/o girl or anyone should be learning about Christianity. It reeks of the crazy things being said all the time by more prominent speakers.

Someone posted about her not harming anyone, you bolded that and said "Hi gay people. Hi minorities." How is that not you saying she's harming them?

So, again to make sure I'm understanding correctly, you know for certain that she will harm gay people without knowing if she's capable of any critical thinking? Many people within religions won't inherently agree with every aspect of what they're taught and will question aspects of the faith. In many churches this is even encouraged to help with self discovery and understanding.

Again, though, you made it very clear that you think she is harming someone, otherwise your wording and selective bolding wouldn't make any sense at all.

[jgminto]

Btw sorry for being rude OP, I know you're just concerned and care about your sister but it's most likely nothing to worry about.

It's totally cool.

That is the main concern you got from that? Not the whole "Evil beliefs" nonsense and spouting off about purity? Just stop and think for a moment what topics he could possibly be referring too. What topics so many pastors constantly bring up. I didn't say she was harming anyone. Just not yet. Only that she seems to be in way over her head and the atmosphere described is not that in which a 15 y/o girl or anyone should be learning about Christianity. It reeks of the crazy things being said all the time by more prominent speakers. There is a whole lot in the first post that goes beyond just "Dropping out of school to pursue music". What kind of pastor even encourages that? Oh right. One that wants sheep. Edit: And for the last time. She can be of faith and be a great person. There is no argument there. I just don't think that she should be attending that specific Church and listening to that specific pastor. He does not seem to be looking out for her best interests.

Ha. I should say I don't have a problem with her being "pure". It's not like I want her going around and having sex with strange men, it just seemed like something she wouldn't do.

[PezDispenser]

I was active in ministry for 15 years and now I'm an atheist. I could sort her out.

From one rigid dogma to another, I see.

[OttomanScribe]

I have no tolerance for proselytizing. I have no tolerance and insinuations that I am somehow a lesser person and am facing an eternity in hell fire for not believing in their religion. Now, if a family member were devout but was very respectful and does not try to convert me, then hey no worries. Edit: And really, she's not doing so. If she were my sister I wouldn't cut her out yet. So I take back my first post.

My Grandma disowned me when I became Muslim. It is a horrible thing to do to someone in the family. Friends, fine, I constantly struggle with an Islamaphobic friend, wondering if it is worth his constant random insuations and whatever. But family is family.

I never got a chance to reconcile with my grandma, because she has alzheimers and we hide that I am Muslim (and my wife) from her.

I am glad that you took it back more generally, but just consider your stance. With family the seperation is not easier than the slight annoyance of someone getting preachy.

[OttomanScribe]

In terms of dealing with it, the best thing you can do is be a patient, polite and hospitable person. Be the 'one good atheist' or whatever to her. It is a lot hard to believe that someone is inherently immoral and going to hell if you see them out and about being a good person. This will always put the brakes on extremism I find.

I had an ex who was religious, and her faith and the effect it had on her certainly made me less extreme in my atheism.

[Log4Girlz]

My Grandma disowned me when I became Muslim. It is a horrible thing to do to someone in the family. Friends, fine, I constantly struggle with an Islamaphobic friend, wondering if it is worth his constant random insuations and whatever. But family is family. I never got a chance to reconcile with my grandma, because she has alzheimers and we hide that I am Muslim (and my wife) from her. I am glad that you took it back more generally, but just consider your stance. With family the seperation is not easier than the slight annoyance of someone getting preachy.

Well, it would never occur, my sister is agnostic and is as likely to become religious as I am. But I have had very religious family members and again, I would cut someone out if they became preachy and more specifically, was insistent about it. Again, insinuating I was immoral, going to hell etc. I've known people with family members like this or grew up in families who were preachy and did not accept them when they did not fall in line with their beliefs. Its better to separate yourself from negative influences.

From what he describes, I worry that his sister is going down a fanatical road.

In terms of dealing with it, the best thing you can do is be a patient, polite and hospitable person. Be the 'one good atheist' or whatever to her. It is a lot hard to believe that someone is inherently immoral and going to hell if you see them out and about being a good person. This will always put the brakes on extremism I find. I had an ex who was religious, and her faith and the effect it had on her certainly made me less extreme in my atheism.

This is the best advice for the OP. Lead by example.

[OttomanScribe]

Well, it would never occur, my sister is agnostic and is as likely to become religious as I am. But I have had very religious family members and again, I would cut someone out if they became preachy and more specifically, was insistent about it. Again, insinuating I was immoral, going to hell etc. I've known people with family members like this or grew up in families who were preachy and did not accept them when they did not fall in line with their beliefs. Its better to separate yourself from negative influences. From what he describes, I worry that his sister is going down a fanatical road.

How old are you?

[CrushDance]

Someone posted about her not harming anyone, you bolded that and said "Hi gay people. Hi minorities." How is that not you saying she's harming them? So, again to make sure I'm understanding correctly, you know for certain that she will harm gay people without knowing if she's capable of any critical thinking? Many people within religions won't inherently agree with every aspect of what they're taught and will question aspects of the faith. In many churches this is even encouraged to help with self discovery and understanding. Again, though, you made it very clear that you think she is harming someone, otherwise your wording and selective bolding wouldn't make any sense at all.

..................Oh my God. How many times am I gong to reiterate...When did I say that she *was* now, here, today? ?_?

Okay, two simple questions:

1) Is homosexuality a sin?

2) Does the pastor sound like someone who would preach about gays in a positive light?

SIMPLY based off of what was written in the OP. Do you honestly think that from the quotes of the pastor, the apathy of her wanting to drop out of school; that this man is a person wishing to push a wholesome Christian message?

[Devolution]

And to round it up he discusses how if sex outside of marriage were made illegal, it would eradicate disease, abortions, etc. I would have liked to hear how he even thought that would be possible

Harmful as fuck rhetoric. Don't let this guy be the only way she gets information.

[jgminto]

In terms of dealing with it, the best thing you can do is be a patient, polite and hospitable person. Be the 'one good atheist' or whatever to her. It is a lot hard to believe that someone is inherently immoral and going to hell if you see them out and about being a good person. This will always put the brakes on extremism I find. I had an ex who was religious, and her faith and the effect it had on her certainly made me less extreme in my atheism.

That definitely a good idea. And I do appreciate all the advice I've been given in here. I think my main problem right now it just talking to her about it. Being a 15 year old girl she gets really defensive about it. I guess I should just keep it as rational as I can.

[Log4Girlz]

How old are you?

In my 30's. Now what?

[Dice]

But is it that? Maybe she's found a place where she feels accepted by everyone around her. That's something to be happy for. Yeah you can draw comparisons with cults there but you don't know if it's anything like that.

Well we have a few things here...

1) Speaking on tongues. Yeah, that's typical with pentecostal circles, but some are more moderate and it isn't very apparent in the service. Not that it's wrong in itself, but it demonstrates an escapism and form of emotional manipulation. It's setting a contrived spiritual atmosphere that makes people more susceptible to accept whatever is thrown at them.
2) The "blueprint" concept of God's plan for your life and the "no questioning" aspect are very common among the more mentally controlling groups. It's only one of the many things you aren't allowed to question.
3) Purity ring is another sign of a manipulative and controlling group. The more weight they throw on to things like this, the more certain you can be that they use guilt trips as manipulation rather than a focus on God's grace being the motivator.
4) That perspective on natural disasters is again something common in the groups that use guilt and emotional manipulation to control people.

I spent my whole life in Christian circles and I am very familiar with how the different ones operate. He shouldn't be too concerned for her safety unless they show some signs that they want to be controlling for some reason other than to be stupid together and get the pastor paid.

However, he has every right to be concerned for her mental and emotional wellness and how it may lead her to make very foolish decisions with the course of her life. As I said, they work with guilt and emotional manipulation. There is a great deal of needless anxiety and strife that goes on. It is definitely oppressive to the individual and suppresses thinking and feeling what they actually do.

If she chooses full commitment to "God's plan" for her life and does something stupid like drop out of school, it can be a costly mistake that has her working to recover from it for years if she ever changes her mind. I wouldn't be very concerned if she were at a Presbyterian church or something, but groups like the ones he described are awful for a person.

From one rigid dogma to another, I see.

Fuck off with your nebulous high horse you damn hippy. That's not how you address someone without knowing shit about their perspective.

[Rentahamster]

From one rigid dogma to another, I see.

No, not necessarily.

[Juicy Bob]

Give it time, and give her support. The young often fall into extremism, regardless of the religion, but they burn out pretty quickly. There are worse things she could be doing at that age trust me. What is the problem? Is she harming you? Is the church (other than appearing to you a bit wacky) teaching her anything that will harm her? If not, then just be around and give her support for what is usually the inevitable come down.

Listen to the Scribe, OP. He imparts wisdom.

[CrushDance]

That definitely a good idea. And I do appreciate all the advice I've been given in here. I think my main problem right now it just talking to her about it. Being a 15 year old girl she gets really defensive about it. I guess I should just keep it as rational as I can.

Just realize that who she is today won't be the same person at twenty. People change a lot in that time. Just keep communication going and engage her in dialogue if you find that she's going "too far". Lots of people drop religion at around her age and later. Many also pick it up. Just monitor the wind really.

[nateeasy]

Just tell her god would want her to have a backup plan.

[jgminto]

Well we have a few things here... 1) Speaking on tongues. Yeah, that's typical with pentecostal circles, but some are more moderate and it isn't very apparent in the service. Not that it's wrong in itself, but it demonstrates an escapism and form of emotional manipulation. It's setting a contrived spiritual atmosphere that makes people more susceptible to accept whatever is thrown at them. 2) The "blueprint" concept of God's plan for your life and the "no questioning" aspect are very common among the more mentally controlling groups. It's only one of the many things you aren't allowed to question. 3) Purity ring is another sign of a manipulative and controlling group. The more weight they throw on to things like this, the more certain you can be that they use guilt trips as manipulation rather than a focus on God's grace being the motivator. 4) That perspective on natural disasters is again something common in the groups that use guilt and emotional manipulation to control people. I spent my whole life in Christian circles and I am very familiar with how the different ones operate. He shouldn't be too concerned for her safety unless they show some signs that they want to be controlling for some reason other than to be stupid together and get the pastor paid. However, he has every right to be concerned for her mental and emotional wellness and how it may lead her to make very foolish decisions with the course of her life. As I said, they work with guilt and emotional manipulation. There is a great deal of needless anxiety and strife that goes on. It is definitely oppressive to the individual and suppresses thinking and feeling what they actually do. If she chooses full commitment to "God's plan" for her life and does something stupid like drop out of school, it can be a costly mistake that has her working to recover from it for years if she ever changes her mind. I wouldn't be very concerned if she were at a Presbyterian church or something, but groups like the ones he described are awful for a person.

The speaking in tongues was the church and youth group in the town her school is, next town over, she didn't really enjoy that one so much, I think she found it creepy. I don't think they do it at her church, at least when I was there. The other stuff is accurate though.

[vulva]

..................Oh my God. How many times am I gong to reiterate...When did I say that she *was* now, here, today? ?_? Okay, two simple questions: 1) Is homosexuality a sin? 2) Does the pastor sound like someone who would preach about gays in a positive light? SIMPLY based off of what was written in the OP. Do you honestly think that from the quotes of the pastor, the apathy of her wanting to drop out of school; that this man is a person wishing to push a wholesome Christian message?

So what minorities is she hurting or will she be hurting? Do you even know the ethnicity of the preacher or the girl for that matter?

As for your question, I don't know enough about the situation at all to make any ridiculous assumptions, so I can't answer that.

[Bombadil]

I have a sister too, OP. Wow. Lot of people with sisters.

[CrushDance]

So what minorities is she hurting or will she be hurting? Do you even know the ethnicity of the preacher or the girl for that matter? As for your question, I don't know enough about the situation at all to make any ridiculous assumptions, so I can't answer that.

Good luck to you. Really.

OP. What have your parents said about the matter? Do they know the crazy things being said/done or do they only think she's going to a "normal" Church?

[OttomanScribe]

In my 30's. Now what?

Oh, just observing that you buck the trend. I find that people are that kind of extreme usually at an old or young age. Not to patronise you, it could just show conviction rather than intolerance.

[jaxword]

I would say that there are a range of reactions, but from personal experience (one of my family no longer considers themselves Muslim) the thought of completely disassociating myself from them is horrifying.

Disregarding your personal experience, you're saying the majority of Muslims would accept one of their own completely escaping the religion completely and embracing a completely opposing philosophy?

[vulva]

Good luck to you. Really. OP. What have your parents said about the matter? Do they know the crazy things being said/done or do they only think she's going to a "normal" Church?

So, you're telling me you can't actually explain your gay/minority comment beyond unfounded assumptions? If it'll make you listen to me more, I am an atheist so I'm not here to hurt anyone who's gay.

[jaxword]

From one rigid dogma to another, I see.

What's the Dogma of atheists? How rigid is it? Does it allow a variety of behaviors, morality, and judgment? Because if it is rigid, there would be a set limit for those for all atheists to follow.

[jgminto]

Good luck to you. Really. OP. What have your parents said about the matter? Do they know the crazy things being said/done or do they only think she's going to a "normal" Church?

Well, they both think she's getting too into it. She goes to Youth, Sunday service and now some Women's bible study, whatever the fuck that is. My mother was with me when I went so she saw what I wrote about but she's religious, not church going but as long as she doesn't dedicate too much time to it she won't have a problem. My dad is a total loon but even he thinks she's spending too much time there.

Regarding homosexuality, I didn't hear her church's stance on it, it's probably not good, but my sis has always been pro-gay. I think I'll ask her about it though, I haven't in a while.

[Log4Girlz]

What's the Dogma of atheists? How rigid is it? Does it allow a variety of behaviors, morality, and judgment? Because if it is rigid, there would be a set limit for those for all atheists to follow.

I see you have not read the atheist bible, gone to atheist church or pray to atheist god. You my friend are no atheist.

[jaxword]

I see you have not read the atheist bible, gone to atheist church or pray to atheist god. You my friend are no atheist.

Well, yeah, I'm not an atheist, I never said I was.

I'm definitely wondering where PezDispenser read this this atheist rigid code. Possibly nowhere.

[Razorwind]

Someone has already brought it up to leave her alone.

To support that, how do you know you are not wrong about what you believe?

Most common problem for religious discussions is the lack of common ground, hard to get any logical discussion out of it.


On a darker side, even if you know 100% sure she is wrong in her thinking, but is she happier now? Will she be happier this way in the future?


Swinging people from religion to religion or to none at all is a big change if you ever pull it off, For me, I would say lifetime happiness and sense of purpose for the other person is higher than my own "sense of right and wrong" most of the time.

My mum is like your sister: she got deeply entrenched into religion ever since my dad passed away. A lot of things in the church I still disagree with, but I let her be if her life has more meaning that way.

[CrushDance]

So, you're telling me you can't actually explain your gay/minority comment beyond unfounded assumptions? If it'll make you listen to me more, I am an atheist so I'm not here to hurt anyone who's gay.

Good for you. But I'm really not not going to bother explaining the same thing over and over again to you.

Well, they both think she's getting too into it. She goes to Youth, Sunday service and now some Women's bible study, whatever the fuck that is. My mother was with me when I went so she saw what I wrote about but she's religious, not church going but as long as she doesn't dedicate too much time to it she won't have a problem. My dad is a total loon but even he thinks she's spending too much time there. Regarding homosexuality, I didn't hear her church's stance on it, it's probably not good, but my sis has always been pro-gay. I think I'll ask her about it though, I haven't in a while.

I wouldn't say the time is so much an issue(Well apart from academic work) as compared to the rhetoric. So long as she's balanced between the two it should be fine. It wouldn't hurt though to suggest another Church if your family is feeling uncomfortable with what they're doing.

Someone has already brought it up to leave her alone. To support that, how do you know you are not wrong about what you believe? On a darker side, even if you know 100% sure she is wrong in her thinking, but is she happier now? Will she be happier this way in the future?

That's a dangerous way of thinking though. And not to sound inconsiderate, but there is a difference between a young person and an older one when it comes to issues like these. It usually takes loss or the approach of the end for those beliefs to strengthen. So yeah, I wouldn't say trying to change someone at that point or every really is worth it even if you know for a 100% that you're right.

[CPS2]

Well, yeah, I'm not an atheist, I never said I was. I'm definitely wondering where PezDispenser read this this atheist rigid code. Possibly nowhere.

If you're an atheist then you have to follow the strict belief that everything in the bible is wrong. Its quite a detailed religion, its actually 1:1 as complicated as all other religions combined. =P

[jgminto]

I see you have not read the atheist bible, gone to atheist church or pray to atheist god. You my friend are no atheist.

Oh that reminds me, the pastor also mentioned how atheist are different than agnostic. And that atheists think they know everything, and because they can't disprove god they can't know everything and aren't really atheist, or something like that.

[Log4Girlz]

Well, yeah, I'm not an atheist, I never said I was.

Hold on, let me get my atheist bible out, I will read you some verses.

Oh that reminds me, the pastor also mentioned how atheist are different than agnostic. And that atheists think they know everything, and because they can't disprove god they can't know everything and aren't really atheist, or something like that.

LOL

[vulva]

Good for you. But I'm really not not going to bother explaining the same thing over and over again to you.

Alright, well keep fighting the good fight I guess.

[jaxword]

If you're an atheist then you have to follow the strict belief that everything in the bible is wrong. Its quite a detailed religion, its actually 1:1 as complicated as all other religions combined. =P

Wow, atheism sounds like a great and complicated religion! I'll donate my entire paycheque and start going to the atheist church down the street today! I think it's actually a gamestop though.

[OttomanScribe]

Disregarding your personal experience, you're saying the majority of Muslims would accept one of their own completely escaping the religion completely and embracing a completely opposing philosophy?

In general I have found that extreme reactions to such things really depend on the way in which the person leaves the religion, and how extreme the people involved are. There are the gamut of reactions in general, I don't know of anyone who has been denounced or forced out of their families, but I don't know anyone who has gone nuts with it.

In small communities there is a real sense that some people who leave the religion and publically attack it are betraying the community, because they feel vulnerable as it is. It is a different case in majority places, with varied reactions depending on the community in question, country, madhab, etcetera.

[Despera]

How do most conservative Muslims react if a member decides to escape the religion and become nonreligious/atheist/etc.?

Where I live, the punishment is death, unless the apostate reverts back to Islam. (This is the true punishment confirmed in Islamic Hadeth, don't be fooled by cherry pickers).

In the case of insulting prophet Mohammed, the punishment used to be death, but in the last few decades the government decided that a prison sentence should suffice.

[Log4Girlz]

Where I live, the punishment is death, unless the apostate reverts back to Islam. (This is the true punishment confirmed in Islamic Hadeth, don't be fooled by cherry pickers). In the case of insulting prophet Mohammed, the punishment used to be death, but in the last few decades the government decided that a prison sentence should suffice.

OP, kill your sister. JK ;)

[jaxword]

In general I have found that extreme reactions to such things really depend on the way in which the person leaves the religion, and how extreme the people involved are. There are the gamut of reactions in general, I don't know of anyone who has been denounced or forced out of their families, but I don't know anyone who has gone nuts with it. In small communities there is a real sense that some people who leave the religion and publically attack it are betraying the community, because they feel vulnerable as it is. It is a different case in majority places, with varied reactions depending on the community in question, country, madhab, etcetera.

That's still avoiding the question and you keep using personal anecdotes, which is not what I asked. You constantly speak in defense of Islam on the whole, yet you refuse to answer this simple question about the whole, and it's becoming obvious why, too.

So. Do you think the majority of practitioners of the Muslim religion in the world are accepting of those who completely leaving the religion? Yes or no?

Where I live, the punishment is death, unless the apostate reverts back to Islam. (This is the true punishment confirmed in Islamic Hadeth, don't be fooled by cherry pickers). In the case of insulting prophet Mohammed, the punishment used to be death, but in the last few decades the government decided that a prison sentence should suffice.

At least Despera here is giving an honest answer. Thank you. The hypocrisy is now quite evident.

[OttomanScribe]

Where I live, the punishment is death, unless the apostate reverts back to Islam. (This is the true punishment confirmed in Islamic Hadeth, don't be fooled by cherry pickers). In the case of insulting prophet Mohammed, the punishment used to be death, but in the last few decades the government decided that a prison sentence should suffice.

Where do you live and how many times has the punshment been enacted?

Are you a muhadith?

[BobTheBub]

In general I have found that extreme reactions to such things really depend on the way in which the person leaves the religion, and how extreme the people involved are.

That's Somewhat disingenuous.

Repeat of a quote from another thread.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy

In some countries apostasy from the religion supported by the state is explicitly forbidden. This is largely the case in some states where Islam is the state religion; conversion to Islam is encouraged, conversion from Islam penalised. Iran – illegal (death penalty)[7][8][9] Egypt – illegal (death penalty)[9] Pakistan – illegal (death penalty[9] since 2007) United Arab Emirates – illegal (death penalty)[10] Somalia – illegal (death penalty)[11] Afghanistan – illegal (death penalty, although the U.S. and other coalition members have put pressure that has prevented recent executions[12][13]) Saudi Arabia – illegal (death penalty, although there have been no recently reported executions)[9][14] Sudan – illegal (death penalty, although there have only been recent reports of torture, and not of execution[15] [16]) Qatar – illegal (death penalty)[17] Yemen – illegal (death penalty)[17] Sri Lanka – illegal (Prison sentences for 10 year) (Mahinda Rajapakse regime has passed anti religious change Act in the parliament)[17] Malaysia – illegal in five of 13 states (fine, imprisonment, and flogging)[18][19] Mauritania – illegal (death penalty)[citation needed] Syria – possibly illegal (death penalty) although there is evidence to the contrary[20] Morocco – illegal to proselytise conversion (15 years jail, flogging)[21] Jordan – possibly illegal (fine, jail, child custody loss, marriage annulment) although officials claim otherwise, convictions are recorded for apostasy.[22][23][24]

[OttomanScribe]

That's still avoiding the question and you keep using personal anecdotes, which is not what I asked. You constantly speak in defense of Islam on the whole, yet you refuse to answer this simple question about the whole, and it's becoming obvious why, too.

I won't dumb my answers down to give a misrepresenting generalisation if that is what you mean?

You asked me how I thought people more generally would react, I say 'you can't generalise because it depends on individual factors' to which your response is 'no! generalise!'.

So. Do you think the majority of practitioners of the Muslim religion in the world are accepting of those who completely leaving the religion? Yes or no?

I never said people are accepting, just like anyone it is difficult when someone rejects something that you hold dear, especially when they are openly against it. This isn't about people's feelings about stuff, it is about their reactions surely?

[Log4Girlz]

I won't dumb my answers down to give a misrepresenting generalisation if that is what you mean? You asked me how I thought people more generally would react, I say 'you can't generalise because it depends on individual factors' to which your response is 'no! generalise!'. I never said people are accepting, just like anyone it is difficult when someone rejects something that you hold dear, especially when they are openly against it. This isn't about people's feelings about stuff, it is about their reactions surely?

Is killing someone for leaving islam hardcore? ;)

[OttomanScribe]

Is killing someone for leaving islam hardcore? ;)

Certainly.

That's Somewhat disingenuous. Repeat of a quote from another thread.

If you go to the article itself you will see that it is a little more complicated than a list of countries like that. If I remember correctly the practice only really occurs in Saudi and Iran, or in cases where such incidents become a massive political issue in the state where they occur. The reality is that people leave the religion all the time, and are not arbitrarily killed.

The traditional understanding that I have learnt is that ridaa (translated as 'apostasy') is more accurately talked about in terms of political treason.

[Oblivion]

Introduce them to Richard Dawkins.

Not his books, I mean, actually Richard Dawkins.

[Log4Girlz]

Introduce them to Richard Dawkins. Not his books, I mean, actually Richard Dawkins.

He would make an amazing brother in law...oh wait.

[Shahadan]

Wow. That is so hardcore.

The best way is obviously to kill the person. That way, he/she stops annoying you with religion and gets to meet their God.

A win-win situation really. Let's start a business.

[Lafiel]

Introduce them to Richard Dawkins. Not his books, I mean, actually Richard Dawkins.

Carl Sagan is the superior choice!

[Despera]

Where do you live and how many times has the punshment been enacted? Are you a muhadith?

Saudi Arabia, and as far as I know the punishment has not been enacted (thank goodness).

However, whether the government decides to enact it or not does not deny the fact that the punishment is part of the religion. What I'm talking about here is an Islamic principle, not a group of Muslims' adherence to it, hence my reference to "cherry pickers".

As for your second question, no, I'm not a muhadith. But I've studied this subject thoroughly for the past few years and understand who are the trusted people in Isnad and the difference between hadith types based on the Sanad.

I'm sure you are aware that if multiple hadeeths from Sahih Bukhari resonate with hadeeths from Sahih Muslim then there's no way around it, right? If you want I can provide the hadeeths here, as well as Islamic scholars' readings on them for further discussions.

[jgminto]

Carl Sagan is the superior choice!

But...how?

[OttomanScribe]

As for your second question, no, I'm not a muhadith. But I've studied this subject thoroughly for the past few years and understand who are the trusted people in Isnad and the difference between hadith types based on the Sanad.

I would say that we would have a different concept then of what would constitute a legitimate Islamic tradition. At least in terms of the majority of the people in the Kingdom and their adherence to a minority sect.

Saudi Arabia, and as far as I know the punishment has not been enacted (thank goodness). However, whether the government decides to enact it or not does not deny the fact that the punishment is part of the religion. What I'm talking about here is an Islamic principle, not a group of Muslims' adherence to it. I'm sure you are aware that if multiple hadeeths from Sahih Bukhari resonate with hadeeths from Sahih Muslim that there's no way around it, right? If you want I can provide the hadeeths here, as well as Islamic scholar's readings on them for further discussions.

I do not have a problem with the idea of enacting the hadd for one who commits ridaah and I am familiar with the hadith on the subject, but the issue here is how ridaah is defined. I am not a muhadith, nor are you, this is a discussion for the scholars, and I generally (unless given no choice) avoid acting like a scholar and engaging specifically in those types of discussions. We can continue the discussion in the Official Islamic Thread if it is something you feel compelled to do, however I feel that in this thread little is gained by getting into a discussion irrelevant to the matter at hand.