[onQ123]

this is not even questionable , keyb and mouse is far superior. Move would be closer , but still wont match it. It all depends how they implement the mouse controls and how much auto aim the controller get however.

it's not about the KB/M being better it's about people saying it's not fair on Consoles when it's the same way on a PC because people have better PC's & better KB/M than others so it's not much of a difference now because you can buy a KB\M if you feel that it's going to be the best way to play the games or just use a KB\M that you have for your PC.

[Atomski]

The advantage thumbstick joypads have is better movement over a keyboard on a 2 dimensional plane. Beyond that keyboards are better for multitasking in general and movement in 3 dimensional for games that have that. The mouse is superior to the thumbstick when it comes to aiming. This is fact and has been proven every single time keyboard and mouse players were matched up with thumbstick players since the Shadowrun on the Xbox to today's games on the PS3.

This is false as well. Go watch a pro quake player and then get back to me on movemnet not being as good. The keyboard by itself may not be as good but mouse and keyboard in sync is far better movement than twin sticks.

it's not about the KB/M being better it's about people saying it's not fair on Consoles when it's the same way on a PC because people have better PC's & better KB/M than others so it's not much of a difference now because you can buy a KB\M if you feel that it's going to be the best way to play the games or just use a KB\M that you have for your PC.

The difference in keyboards and mouses is waaayyy less dramatic than m/kb to twin stick. Matter a fact I'd say for a first person shooter its extremely small. You can get a decent dpi mouse for cheap these days.. you would really need to go out of your way to buy a shitty one. Keyboard wise there is no advantage unless you are playing a game where you can use macros. Which in a fps you wouldnt be.

So yeah your argument dosnt hold much ground.

[Roxas]

I'd be interested in seeing some matchups of Move players vs KB/M players

[Ysiadmihi]

My new razer is day and night different than my old generic mouse. My performance has improved A LOT since I've began using it.

So because you're better with your new mouse, that means a pad is better than a generic mouse? When you're making comparisons to pads, the quality of the mouse doesn't matter as long as it's not suffering from technical problems. They're still two vastly different input devices and one is clearly better for FPS than the other.

As an aside, the best I've ever done in an FPS was with a generic $15 laptop mouse, much better than I've been able to manage with my MX518. Is a gaming mouse technically better? Sure, but it doesn't matter if the user can't get comfortable with it. It's the same as some players prefer to play with pad because they can't get a "feel" for mouse aim, even though they acknowledge it's superiority.

So, If you think you're a pro KB/M gamer and you're ok with generic mouse, go ahead and try to beat skilled controller players. It'd be more interesting to post it on youtube.

Why not post some videos of awesome pad play from Quake Live, Tribes Ascend, CS etc etc.

[SniperHunter]

yea I have seen this happen in Killzone 3. Every now and then, some dude comes in with the move controller and starts dominating everyone (especially on maps with the jetpack). It completely sucks!!

[Orayn]

I'd be interested in seeing some matchups of Move players vs KB/M players

How does move aiming compare to Wiimote IR pointer? That's another matchup I'd like to see, since it's basically an optical mouse with no mousepad.

yea I have seen this happen in Killzone 3. Every now and then, some dude comes in with the move controller and starts dominating everyone (especially on maps with the jetpack). It completely sucks!!

But I thought motion controls were worthless and inferior!

[twofold]

My new razer is day and night different than my old generic mouse. My performance has improved A LOT since I've began using it. So, If you think you're a pro KB/M gamer and you're ok with generic mouse, go ahead and try to beat skilled controller players. It'd be more interesting to post it on youtube.

About half of the best Quake Live players use either the Microsoft Wheel Mouse Optical or the Intellimouse Explorer 3. Those mice can be bought for something like £10-15. They also use basic membrane keyboards mostly while some use mechanical. The difference in keyboard isn't much, though.

A lot of the best Starcraft Brood War players use an old Logitech ball mouse along with a Samsung DT35 keyboard that costs about £8 to buy.

[Zeliard]

i bet the rest of the fish got pretty pissed when some of them started sprouting legs, too.

lol

[ExitPlanetDust]

It's definitely an unfair advantage. Anyone who thinks otherwise is welcome to plug a PS360 controller into a PC and go a few rounds in Quake 3 Arena. These days the popularity of the military FPS may inherently make the playing field a bit more level, but slow down my aim iron sights and hit boxes the size of a truck have duped a lot of controller players into thinking their input preference is equal to the KB&M.

That said, the option to plug a mouse and keyboard in to those games that allow the feature enables anyone to do so. Refusing to do so is just self imposing your own made up rules. The comfort excuse is stretching it. I regularly play PS2 Half Life with a mouse and keyboard from the couch quite comfortably.

I stand by what I said in the CS:GO Beta thread:

Just put in an option to restrict mouse and keyboard players from matches or servers. Let the players and hosts deside what they can or cannot handle. No need to remove support entirely. Besides, leaving keyboard and mouse support out of a console FPS doesn't stop anyone from using an adapter.

The lack of FPS mouse and keyboard support this generation is ridiculous. The Playstation 2 had more KB&M compatible FPSs. Shit, the Dreamcast probably had more than the PS2. It's just been a massive step backward, IMO.

[stuart]

Wait - don't all PS3 shooters support the Move controller anyway? If not, what the hell is going on? Aiming precision is why the Wii has better FPS games than the 360.

[darkpaladinmfc]

A lot of the best Starcraft Brood War players use an old Logitech ball mouse along with a Samsung DT35 keyboard that costs about £8 to buy.

Basically correct, but no BW players use a ball mouse anymore, NalRa did for a bit but that was a while ago.

[RagnarokX]

It's mostly the analog lovers finding excuses to not have to change to a superior control scheme. It's like the government shutting down better modes of transportation and bailing out the airline industry just because the airlines are already more common.

[twofold]

Basically correct, but no BW players use a ball mouse anymore, NalRa did for a bit but that was a while ago.

Ah, yes. My bad. I'm getting all confused. The majority used the logitech optical mini, right?

[ghst]

Ah, yes. My bad. I'm getting all confused. The majority used the logitech optical mini, right?

there isn't really a majority anymore. dt-35s and G1s are still hanging in there, but most teams have peripheral brand sponsors nowadays.

[twofold]

there isn't really a majority anymore. dt-35s and G1s are still hanging in there, but most teams have peripheral brand sponsors nowadays.

Yeah, I know that now that they're transitioning out to SC2 and stuff. I meant a year or two back when BW was at its peak. Just trying to illustrate that 'gaming equipment' is nothing but marketing speak. If normal off the shelves parts are good enough for pro gamers, they're good enough for everyone.

[Shin Johnpv]

People just love to complain? with Counter Strike: Global Offensive & Dust 514 having KB/M & Move support I noticed that a few people keep saying that it's unfair. my question is how is it any different from playing games on the PC when some people have high price gaming KB\M & some have the standard KB\M? & if you feel that it's so unfair why not just use KB\M yourself? most KB\M are cheaper than a new controller & most of us already have them anyway so what's the big deal?

KB/M and Move are definitely faster/better control schemes for FPS. Dual analogs are so slow and archaic they should be outlawed for F/TPS.

Some one using Move or a KB/M definitely has a speed/aiming advantage over some one using Dual Analogs, much more so over some one using a shitty KB/M vs some one with a gaming KB/M

[Kilrathi]

There are so many other things that can be called a unfair advantage as well
Sound setup
TV/Display
Internet connection
Location(live closer to the dedicated server get a better ping)
How about racing games those who have 900 degree wheel or better have advantage over one using a pad

[wildfire]

This is false as well. Go watch a pro quake player and then get back to me on movemnet not being as good. The keyboard by itself may not be as good but mouse and keyboard in sync is far better movement than twin sticks.

Keyboard has only one advantage over thumbsticks when moving on a 2D plane and that is faster change of direction from left to right or forwards and backwards only.

Other than that an analog stick is more nuanced because you don't have to hold shift to walk and can finely tune your movement speed at incremental levels between the slowest speed and fastest movement speed.

Also Keyboards are crappy at rotational movement without the mouse assisting them. Even in MMOs you are called out as a scrub for keyboard turning in PVE.

I disagree with a little of what you said. Movement is always better with the analog sticks

No. Analog is terrible on when you have to quickly move on the Z axis. It wasn't designed for it.

and in some shooters sticks are better than the kb/m.

Shooters (I'm assuming you are talking about R-Type and Gradius type of games) use 2D movement. We aren't disagreeing here.

In unreal tournament on the PS3 the skill level from thumbsticks and kb/m is very close so not all games the kb/m has instant advantage like in COD.

You found an outlier where in one game out of the majority where pad and K+M were put together the competition was close instead of massive. Big deal. Even there the edge was still for K+M. The majority of games still prove that even with auto-assisting software for pad players they were inferior to K+M until they switched hardware.

[Koren]

I think this is a case of using the right input method for the genre. Contrary to what some PC users would have you believe, KB/M isn't the one setup to rule them all. It's got serious shortcomings when it comes to third person games that use analog movement speed and direction, as well as simulators that need analog axes for other reasons. In those cases, the optimum input methods are dual analog controllers and full sized joystick and throttle setups respectively.

Am I the only one who played FPS with analog joystick and mouse ? Granted, I'm not a great FPS player, but that's probably because I don't like them enough to practice. The setup worked great for me. There's enough buttons on the mouse and the stick, and the analog command for movement felt natural and easy.

Why would you have to choose between K+M or Dual Analog when there's plently of solution for everyone? I've seen people playing with trackballs or even trackpads (configured for absolute, not relative) instead of keyboard, and it was also interesting and efficient setups.

(That being said, I can understand how people get used to stick for aiming, but I can't. I need a system based on a first-order system (hand position commands visor position, be it mouse or wiimote), not a second order one (thumb/hand position commands displacement of visor)... The additional time needed for aiming is just to great for me to be able to do anything right).


As for the "unfair", there's so many "unfairness" in setups : TV input lags, internet connexions, surround sound systems, etc. You can't begin to check all of them. I played GT5 with a pad with people with wheels, of course they have an advantage, sometimes big with some cars. I was still having fun. I was also playing using motion control on Mario Kart Wii.

Since it bothers some players, the option to create rooms with restriction on setup make sense, but beyond that, it would be stupid to enforce it on everyone.

[Atomski]

There are so many other things that can be called a unfair advantage as well Sound setup TV/Display Internet connection Location(live closer to the dedicated server get a better ping) How about racing games those who have 900 degree wheel or better have advantage over one using a pad

I'd actually say that using a wheel is actually harder and more skilled based than using a normal controller.

[darkpaladinmfc]

Yeah, I know that now that they're transitioning out to SC2 and stuff. I meant a year or two back when BW was at its peak. Just trying to illustrate that 'gaming equipment' is nothing but marketing speak. If normal off the shelves parts are good enough for pro gamers, they're good enough for everyone.

Yea basically. What mouse you use is pretty important if you're a really high-level FPS player but for other genres equipment doesn't mean too much except for what you're comfortable with.

[Vaporak]

Yeah, I know that now that they're transitioning out to SC2 and stuff. I meant a year or two back when BW was at its peak. Just trying to illustrate that 'gaming equipment' is nothing but marketing speak. If normal off the shelves parts are good enough for pro gamers, they're good enough for everyone.

Yeah you're still right. The pro's generally don't use the expensive "gaming mice and keyboards", they tend to use pretty standard stuff. The idea that competition is unfair on PC because some people have better equipment is totally false because "good equipment" makes approximately zero difference in results. Of course that's also because no one is stupid enough to use a gamepad in a competitive FPS...

[Koren]

How does move aiming compare to Wiimote IR pointer? That's another matchup I'd like to see, since it's basically an optical mouse with no mousepad.

Mouse is probably a bit better than Wiimote, which is in turn better than Move.

Even if both systems are first-order devices, the wiimote operate often at a lower frequency than a mouse, with some (light) smoothing algorithms to avoid jittering that tamper movements and add a little bit of delay. The muscular feedback you get with a mouse is also more precise (translation vs rotation), in part because your brain is more trained to put fingers in precise places than to orient them precisely toward a given direction (I don't remember the biological term behind the feedback).

The move is a second-order device, in that it has to integrate the gyro sensor readings to get the direction, and there's definitively some noise that produce a less precise pointing than wiimote (it's obvious in some videos where the camera is tied to the move, the cursor keeps moving a little on the sides). There's a first-order sensor (magnetic compass) but it's nowhere precise enough to be used as the primary input. Beside, there's far more computation to get the right position if your position change, so either they don't take it into account, or they add some lag in input for to compute the correct line of sight.


That being said, I think there's far more variability in peoples' skills than between those inputs, and since all of them require some learning time, it's awfully difficult to check this in real conditions.

[Atomski]

Keyboard has only one advantage over thumbsticks when moving on a 2D plane and that is faster change of direction from left to right or forwards and backwards only. Other than that an analog stick is more nuanced because you don't have to hold shift to walk and can finely tune your movement speed at incremental levels between the slowest speed and fastest movement speed. Also Keyboards are crappy at rotational movement without the mouse assisting them. Even in MMOs you are called out as a scrub for keyboard turning in PVE.

You seemed to miss my point.. m/kb "in sync" is still better movement. You can not recreate the moments of a pro quake player with twin sticks.

If you played a mmo and used a stick to turn your character you also would be called a scrub.. but if you use the keyboard in sync with the mouse you good.

I also would say most fps dont need more than 2 speeds. I agree that is a flaw however.. but there still isnt many games where that is an actually problem. Shift key works fine with almost any game. I'd also complain that holding a stick in the middle range for a good period of time makes my finger cramp cause you cant just rest it against the edge.

[Koren]

I'd actually say that using a wheel is actually harder and more skilled based than using a normal controller.

I seriously doubt it. You feel the grip loss sooner, and it's easier to use the analog inputs. Even if I'm only playing with a pad, the couple of times I used a wheel, I got better result than with a pad, without training. Maybe I was lucky, though.

That being said, with some training, there's no doubt that even if the learning curve is steeper, at the end, you'll perform better with a wheel.

And I'm better with a HOTAS for dogfighting than with a pad (dawn, WHY PS2 and PS3 are not recognizing Saitek HOTAS, the official stick for Ace Combat seemed to be a repackaged X45!)

And i fare FAR FAR better with a Train Controller Type-2 than with a pad for Densha de Go ^_^

I won't even start with rythm games. My house is a collection of pads of all sorts ^_^

[SMT]

Or motherfuckers should get with the times and universally allow other methods of control.

[CrashPrime]

I would much rather play CS:Go on PC, but I am straight up running to go buy it for PS Triple now that I heard it has KB/M support. UT3 and CS:Go are the only big time games that have ever pulled it off.

I would day1 a $1000 PS4/720 if it promised KB/M support for all shooters. Seriously WHY DONT MORE GAMES DO THIS!?

[Agent X]

An interesting point...Hitbox sticks (arcade controls where the 4-directional inputs are mapped to buttons) were banned in tournaments for MvC3 because some of the possible button inputs could result in otherwise impossible scenarios, like holding forward and backwards at the same time so you don't have to guess which way to block.

This is going off on a tangent (for this topic), but with the Hitbox situation that you described, couldn't the game be patched so that the game could detect if a player held the "left" and "right" directions simultaneously? If so, then the developers could treat this as if the joystick were held neutral, meaning that any block would be canceled out.

[Always-honest]

Ofcourse. Mouse and keyboard is just a point and click fest. There is nothing easier. Dual analog controls are weird and unintuitive no matter hoe good you're are with them.

[ihearthawthats]

it's not unfair because everyone has relatively easy access to it. matchmaking is still determined by skill level and rankings are still seperate. i wouldn't be surprised to see people trying to aim for #1 on all 3 leaderboards.

This is going off on a tangent (for this topic), but with the Hitbox situation that you described, couldn't the game be patched so that the game could detect if a player held the "left" and "right" directions simultaneously? If so, then the developers could treat this as if the joystick were held neutral, meaning that any block would be canceled out.

yes, and it was patched with ultimate mvc3. but the hitbox example doesn't really work, because kb/m doesn't allow you to do anything gamebreaking. possibly scripts/macros, but those will likely be moderated/banned for competitive play.

[wildfire]

Am I the only one who played FPS with analog joystick and mouse ? Granted, I'm not a great FPS player, but that's probably because I don't like them enough to practice. The setup worked great for me. There's enough buttons on the mouse and the stick, and the analog command for movement felt natural and easy.

How did you do that? A modified wii-nunchuck setup over blue tooth? A custom mod of the Logitech G13?

Analog sticks aren't integrated with keyboards so you have to hack one up if you have the technical no-how.

You seemed to miss my point.. m/kb "in sync" is still better movement. You can not recreate the moments of a pro quake player with twin sticks. If you played a mmo and used a stick to turn your character you also would be called a scrub.. but if you use the keyboard in sync with the mouse you good.

No. You missed how I purposefully addressed the mouse and keyboard as separate types of inputs in my first post.

The reason I segmented away the keyboard from the mouse is due to the fact if there existed a setup that allowed an analog stick in the left hand and a mouse in the other the keyboard would be endangered depending on how little a game relied on multiple buttons in the left hand.


In my second post I full acknowledged that keyboards rely on mice as a crutch to make up for their extreme short comings when it comes to movement.

This is going off on a tangent (for this topic), but with the Hitbox situation that you described, couldn't the game be patched so that the game could detect if a player held the "left" and "right" directions simultaneously? If so, then the developers could treat this as if the joystick were held neutral, meaning that any block would be canceled out.

Actually Capcom did eventually release a patch to do just that for MvC3. Hitboxes aren't banned anymore but they still hold note-worthy advantages that become very apparent with characters with 360 or 720 input commands.

[Hypron]

Every single FPS on the consoles should work like that. Just use a good matchmaking algorithm and it shouldn't be a problem. And it's got advantage of offering low skill K&M player the opportunity to still have fun instead of getting raped repeatedly, since they'll probably be playing with normal controller gamers.

[apana]

Well it may be unfair intially but it is for the good of gaming that more controller options are allowed in and the superior options win. Please take note Wii U developers, you have wiimote option as well. I refuse to play these games with horrible dual analog controls.

[onQ123]

I'd be interested in seeing some matchups of Move players vs KB/M players

Yeah I would like to know how things are going in Counter-Strike with KB/M vs Move vs DS3.

[onQ123]

Sorry for the bump but this is the closes thread that I could find at the moment that has any relations to what I'm posting. (not much but hey)

MAG II Gun Controller reports for FPS duty on PS3 and PC from Nov 20th Last time we saw a MAG gun controller, it was being splayed all over the FCC. But, that was some time ago; gamers with a gun habit will be twitching those trigger fingers for something new. One option? How about the MAG II? Initially seeing the light of day back at E3, the PS3- and PC-compatible controller has three sensitivity settings, along with motion sensing and gyroscopic induction-based motion tracking. Makers, All Interactive Entertainment, also say that future updates will enable new functions and game play modes. Pre-orders are open now, at a cost of around $150, with the full release set for November 20th. Aim and fire at the PR below if you want more info. Show full PR text MAG II Gun Controller – Your Mission starts November 20th on the PlayStation®3 entertainment system and PC. Sydney, Australia – 1 November, 2012 – All Interactive Entertainment (AIE) announced today the MAG II Gun Controller will be available in stores from November 20th. Fully compatible with the PlayStation®3 computer entertainment system and PC, the MAG II is the immersive and realistic new way to play First-Person-Shooter (FPS) games. The MAG II is instantly compatible with ALL shooting games on PS3™ and PC. This is not a light gun; this is a compact, ergonomic, ultra responsive, precision FPS controller. Designed and built with both casual and serious FPS gaming in mind, the MAG II features 3 pre-programmed sensitivity options and is the only gun controller to incorporate Motion Sensing and Gyroscopic Induction movement tracking. The MAG II Gun Controller is supported by a team of engineers who are dedicated to enhancing the FPS experience. Future downloadable updates (via PC) will be available to unlock new functions and gameplay modes accessible via the MAG II Gun Controllers' Function Dial. Prove yourself with the MAG II Wireless Gun Controller for the PS3™ and PC and own the FPS battleground. The MAG II will be available in Australia for RRP $149.95. Pre-orders open now. Support website www.magcontroller.com Further Features of the MAG II Gun Controller - Compatible with ALL First-Person-Shooter games - Full Functionality of Official Controllers - Real Time, in Game, "On the Fly Calibration" - High Precision Motion Tracking Gyroscope, eliminating the need for a Sensor Bar. - Wireless Connection & Built in Vibration - Updateable System Firmware & Mods - Works with ALL TVs, Projectors & Monitors

http://www.engadget.com/2012/11/04/m...on-ps3-and-pc/


Has anyone here tried any of the gun controllers for FPS games? & if so how are they, seems like it's the closes thing to having PlayStation Move Support in every FPS game on the PS3.

[Shtof]

M/kb is a huge advantage if the controls are anything like on the PC. Move, depends on implementation, but if it's like Killzone 3, definitely an advantage.

[onQ123]

M/kb is a huge advantage if the controls are anything like on the PC. Move, depends on implementation, but if it's like Killzone 3, definitely an advantage.

It's pretty much established that M/KB & Move are better but that's not what this is about. I'm asking why are people calling it a unfair advantage when everyone has the option to use them?


I played UT3 on my PS3 with a M\KB (Well real M\KB & not the wireless KB I used to use with the built in touch pad ) for the 1st time about a week or so ago & all I can say is that it's really messed up that Devs will not put this feature to use in more PS3 games.


Call of Duty Black Ops II should use this lost & forgotten PlayStation 3 feature.

that was my 1st time really playing a FPS with a M\KB & it was already better than playing with a controller even though I was set up on a dresser & not a desk lol.

[LCGeek]

It's pretty much established that M/KB & Move are better but that's not what this is about. I'm asking why are people calling it a unfair advantage when everyone has the option to use them? I played UT3 on my PS3 with a M\KB (Well real M\KB & not the wireless KB I used to use with the built in touch pad ) for the 1st time about a week or so ago & all I can say is that it's really messed up that Devs will not put this feature to use in more PS3 games. Call of Duty Black Ops II should use this lost & forgotten PlayStation 3 feature. that was my 1st time really playing a FPS with a M\KB & it was already better than playing with a controller even though I was set up on a dresser & not a desk lol.

Devs don't want to risk word of mouth and what it does. Despite how it's been done in ut3, shadowrun or a few other fps games this generation nothing popular has had such implementation. I say this all the time because there is NOTHING now that can keep an XIM user out from doing this or with other inputs they use on it. Yet I do acknowledge there is a difference between being able to this natively and buying an expensive device that lets you do this.

Simply put there is a quite a large crowd of fps gamers who do not want to play the genre at a certain level. Has nothing to do with being better it's matter of comfort preference and keeping things level in their mind. No one wants to play games they are inherently going to lose a good majority of the time especially because of hardware.

[PetriP-TNT]

All games on PS3 should/could support KB+M. UT3 did it right.

[Skyfireblaze]

Well from personal experience I would say they don't give that much of a advantage to the point where it would be unfair. I have a physical disability in my right hand by 30% and while it generally doesn't hinder me in any way with playing games or using a mouse, when I play console FPS where I have to use both sticks excessively my right hand would usually cramp up badly after 10-15 minutes of playing.

So when my friends then insisted that we all get Black Ops on PS3 because the PC port wasn't much to their liking I simply bought a USB device for the PS3 called EagleEye which allowed me to use any mouse and keyboard in any PS3 game and long story short, after I calibrated it properly I didn't blew Dualshock users out of the water but rather stayed in the middle of the scoreboard as usual (for me in PC FPS') The only advantage I noticed was that I was able to move by 180° a tad more quickly but for the actual aiming it didn't help me a whole lot other than being way more comfortable for my hand.

Though I have to say all the EagleEye did was to "emulate" the right analog-stick with a mouse which resulted in a kind of "sluggish" movement so I can't tell if a direct implementation of a keyboard and mouse would yield any "more unfair" results.

And I do think that all next-gen consoles (yes the Wii U too!) should allow native mouse support atleast. A keyboard wouldn't be that much of a help now that we have these navigational-controllers and nunchuks in my opinion.

[LCGeek]

Well from personal experience I would say they don't give that much of a advantage to the point where it would be unfair. I have a physical disability in my right hand by 30% and while it generally doesn't hinder me in any way with playing games or using a mouse, when I play console FPS where I have to use both sticks excessively my right hand would usually cramp up badly after 10-15 minutes of playing. So when my friends then insisted that we all get Black Ops on PS3 because the PC port wasn't much to their liking I simply bought a USB device for the PS3 called EagleEye which allowed me to use any mouse and keyboard in any PS3 game and long story short, after I calibrated it properly I didn't blew Dualshock users out of the water but rather stayed in the middle of the scoreboard as usual (for me in PC FPS') The only advantage I noticed was that I was able to move by 180° a tad more quickly but for the actual aiming it didn't help me a whole lot other than being way more comfortable for my hand. Though I have to say all the EagleEye did was to "emulate" the right analog-stick with a mouse which resulted in a kind of "sluggish" movement so I can't tell if a direct implementation of a keyboard and mouse would yield any "more unfair" results.

Raw input especially on mouse is a lot better than what you get in windows or through software implementations done by garbage mouse manufactuers. An emulated mouse pointer system is always garbage especially on analog, it's a horrid idea anyway you think about it considering how a point works vs analog.

[onQ123]

Well from personal experience I would say they don't give that much of a advantage to the point where it would be unfair. I have a physical disability in my right hand by 30% and while it generally doesn't hinder me in any way with playing games or using a mouse, when I play console FPS where I have to use both sticks excessively my right hand would usually cramp up badly after 10-15 minutes of playing. So when my friends then insisted that we all get Black Ops on PS3 because the PC port wasn't much to their liking I simply bought a USB device for the PS3 called EagleEye which allowed me to use any mouse and keyboard in any PS3 game and long story short, after I calibrated it properly I didn't blew Dualshock users out of the water but rather stayed in the middle of the scoreboard as usual (for me in PC FPS') The only advantage I noticed was that I was able to move by 180° a tad more quickly but for the actual aiming it didn't help me a whole lot other than being way more comfortable for my hand. Though I have to say all the EagleEye did was to "emulate" the right analog-stick with a mouse which resulted in a kind of "sluggish" movement so I can't tell if a direct implementation of a keyboard and mouse would yield any "more unfair" results. And I do think that all next-gen consoles (yes the Wii U too!) should allow native mouse support atleast. A keyboard wouldn't be that much of a help now that we have these navigational-controllers and nunchuks in my opinion.

That's because you are only emulating a DS3 with your M/KB that's not the same as having a game that can take advantage of the M\KB raw input & settings.

[Skyfireblaze]

Raw input especially on mouse is a lot better than what you get in windows or through software implementations done by garbage mouse manufactuers. An emulated mouse pointer system is always garbage especially on analog, it's a horrid idea anyway you think about it considering how a point works vs analog.

That's because you are only emulating a DS3 with your M/KB that's not the same as having a game that can take advantage of the M\KB raw input & settings.

Of course you two are right that's why I said that I have no clue how a actual implementation would compare :/ I guess with raw input it _might_ get unfair but I think even that could be balanced out with more aim-assist on the controllers part. And I'm curious, was there actually ever a test done by any company to see if controller-users really have that much of a disadvantage in actual gameplay situations?

[LCGeek]

Of course you two are right that's why I said that I have no clue how a actual implementation would compare :/ I guess with raw input it _might_ get unfair but I think even that could be balanced out with more aim-assist on the controllers part. And I'm curious, was there actually ever a test done by any company to see if controller-users really have that much of a disadvantage in actual gameplay situations?

I think quake 3 dc or shadowrun are examples of what you want. Quake 3 was abandoned by a lot of pad after they added KB&M support.

[KojiKnight]

A bad player who uses a KB+M will still be a bad player... a good person with a gamepad will still be a good player.

If you want to make sure everything is "fair" simply match make people based on how well they do. There is no reason to seperate out KB+M from controller people if they are statistically playing the same in a given match up

(that is, if someone is only okay in KB+M and averaging a 1:1 KD ratio, what's the problem with putting them in the same game with someone who's only okay at gamepad and will still average 1:1 KD in the same match? If KB+M really has a huge advantage, then they will organically be pitted against each other more often than gamepad players and vise versa)

[onQ123]

http://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-P...ny+computer%22

[0005] (1) United States Patent Application Publication No. US2007/0281787. [0006] In recent years, a communication environment has been created in which the game devices of a plurality of users can be connected on-line via the Internet. This allows the users to communicate with each other using chat or electronic mail while playing games together. Since the users need to enter text messages for chat or electronic mails, it is difficult to do so in the conventional game controllers. Particularly with a game mainly featuring chat between the users, there are many instances when the user enters text messages and therefore a new type of input device is desired. SUMMARY OF THE INVENTION [0007] A purpose of the present invention is therefore to provide a new input interface enabling a user to enter texts with ease and operate a game, when necessary, by incorporating a function of a game controller into a keyboard. [0008] In order to resolve the aforementioned problems, a keyboard according to one embodiment of the present invention is a keyboard equipped with functions of operation buttons and an analog stick provided in the game controller, and the keyboard includes: an operation member; and an output unit configured to output a signal according to an operation by the operation member. The operation member includes: a plurality of keys having allotment keys to which functions of the operation buttons of the game controller are assigned; a pointing stick placed in the keyboard; and a modifier key. When the pointing stick is operated with the modifier key being operated, the output unit outputs an operation signal of the analog stick of the game controller.

Look like Sony is making a PlayStation Keyboard with controller functions or they are setting a standard input for Keyboards that translate to controller inputs