[ronito]

Well. It is, we didn't have a globalized economy that we all relied on. We outsourced everything, and that crippled local economy. Heres my question, where are jobs going to come from now? Now that all of the factory/mom and pop/everything, is gone from our country? Tech-jobs aren't going to bring back a lot of basic jobs in the mid-west, who were reliant on factories that sustained towns for generations. This attitude is putting your head in the sand, and just hoping its going to be ok. Thats why neither political party can do a single thing about this, it is more a purchasing attitude that drove us into failure. Cheapest product drove out a lot of jobs for people in the country. People have to start supporting their local economy, although it may be more expensive, but it will provide jobs. In thenpursuit of cheaper products, we got rid of the little industries we had here. Thats not coming back with time, and inaction.

I definitely see this in my line of work and it's troubling.

Yeah there's still a need for US workers but they tend to be grissled old experts, anything new and entry level can just be outsourced. So you need less people.

Then you have the consolidation of the cloud which is great and puts local people to work but then it's only within a certain city geography and they run everything for the entire country, so if you're not in their city well, you're SOL.

[DoctorWho]

i think it is. ive been saying the bolded for a couple of years now. I noticed at my company the highers up found they can make more money by doing the same amount of work with less people. If you don't like it, think you're doing the job of two people, too bad. You're fired, there's plenty of other job applicants out there.

Yup.

This is really pissing me off too. There are people who need jobs and nobody wants to be overworked yet things will remain this way as long as there is a profit that can be made.

[akira28]

Stop playing with bubbles you retarded boomer-busters. You're destroying reality and ruining my life.

[Mgoblue201]

Lol are you serious? Nice cherry pick on the gold. Put that graph at 5 years instead of 1 and post that one. Then see which looks better.

Are you serious? The price of gold has nearly tripled in the last five years.

[ronito]

Lol are you serious? Nice cherry pick on the gold. Put that graph at 5 years instead of 1 and post that one. Then see which looks better.

Uh, ok.


All the way from $500 to $1800 in five years seems totally stable to me.

[commedieu]

But, to the topic, yes, this is the new normal until we claw back all of the gains that the rich have taken for themselves. Real economic growth comes from making and selling more useful stuff, which requires an increasingly better-educated and able workforce (quality public education and health care are necessities) and a big market for useful stuff (extreme income inequality reduces the effective market size because lots of people can't afford the stuff they're helping make). It's important to recognize that, while high taxes do disincentivize work, the degree to which they do so depends on the level of income inequality. Back when a high salary might be only four times higher than a low salary, a high tax on the high salary meant that the difference between the low and high salary was substantially reduced. Using random numbers - a 90% tax on everything between $50k and $100k is a big disincentive to working in that range; someone making $100k before taxes is only making 5% more than the person making $50k before taxes. But when the difference between a high salary and a low salary is a million dollars or more, it's different - ain't nobody going to Go Galt because they're only allowed to make 10x as more as the proles instead of 20x.

:)

[Dave Inc.]

Lol are you serious? Nice cherry pick on the gold. Put that graph at 5 years instead of 1 and post that one. Then see which looks better.

Here's one at 20 years so you can see how absurd the recent boom has been:

[Darkkn]

Not that i'm very knowledgeable about the economy, but what i'm seeing is the following:

Jobs due to be wiped by automation in a foreseeable future: Most retail jobs, Transportation(self driving cars), warehouse jobs and possibly many others. I just can't see that the new industries are going to provide as many jobs that are going away due increased efficiency.
Yes, history has proven this wrong but i can't help but feel this way. The rate of technology improving is just so much faster than before and it's going to be tough trying to adjust to multiple big shifts very quickly.

Even as a person who is currently graduated and trying to find a job in technology industry, things don't seem too good. The education is becoming better and easier to get regardless of where you live so it's going to be harder to compete with Chinese programmers, SysAdmins etc. in the future as outsourcing becomes ever easier.

I feel like the trend of less people getting a larger share of the pie is only going to increase and there is not much that can/will be done for it.

[replicashooter]

Read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praxeology

That has to be the most verbose wiki article I have ever read, thanks.

So you link me an Austrian economics paper written near 60 years ago chock full of predictions that never happened. Okay. Also, it says nothing about the absurd fluctuations in recent gold prices.

I agree with the gist of the article, esp:

The excellence of the gold standard is to be seen in the fact that it makes the monetary unit's purchasing power independent of the arbitrary and vacillating policies of governments, political parties, and pressure groups. Historical experience, especially in the last decades, has clearly shown the evils inherent in a national currency system that lacks this independence.

And the reason for the absurd fluctuations in gold are due to the fact that it's a rigged market setup that way to ensure the stability of the dollar.

[akira28]

US economy (ya know, the topic of this thread) unsurprisingly absent

That's like getting robbed and calling the police to arrest the doorman for not stopping it.

[B-Dubs]

Uh, ok. All the way from $500 to $1800 seems totally stable to me.

Yup, look at that stable line. It's not like we've hit a record price for gold at all, nope.

[Czigga]

Uh, ok. All the way from $500 to $1800 seems totally stable to me.

Wait I'm confused. Are we on the same side? The price increase of gold is indicative of a weak dollar, which is inflated through defecit spending and printing money. So, not sure what point you're making. Increasing gold prices reinforce austrian concepts, not vice-versa. I wanted people to see how the price of gold has exploded in the last 30 yrs.

[Dave Inc.]

I agree with the gist of the article, esp:

I don't, and I don't think it's historically accurate.

And the reason for the absurd fluctuations in gold are due to the fact that it's a rigged market setup that way to ensure the stability of the dollar.

Bullshit. It's because gold is a commodity like any other and you can scare people into buying it up, creating an enormous bubble.

[Visualante2]

There's some evidence young people are putting off buying cars, having kids, and buying houses. In fact that may be slowing the recovering because those 3 factors are the biggest sources of consumption in the economy. Whether that's a short term response to "no jobs" or a longterm realignment of priorities is the question.

What evidence? Personally the consumption lifestyle is highly unappealing to me. Definitely no interest in buying or having kids, and I'd rather use public transport than have a car as the cost of running it is only going to get higher.

I'm reading all these futurist/economy books that have recently come out - and basically their take is "it doesn't get any better, watch what happens when fast food jobs are fully automated"

That's why I rage against any automated service when possible. Any book you can recommend? Sounds like Zeitgeist type stuff, product of peak oil.

Obama talked about high-speed rail and Hoover Dam, but what came out seemed rather like a feeding frenzy for connected existing firms. Seeing the government actually hire to build wind farms, a national fibre to the home network etc. would probably be better if adequate project management is retained.

Seeing the private companies in the UK take over the welfare is like that. Some of the companies have already been accused of fraud in Australia, numerous studies saying it doesn't work. Just crazy feeding. Better to just subsidise real jobs. They're not improving chances to get jobs but taking huge chunks of change out of the welfare system.

[ronito]

Wait I'm confused. Are we on the same side? The price increase of gold is indicative of a weak dollar, which is inflated through defecit spending and printing money. So, not sure what point your making. Increasing gold prices reinforce austrian concepts, not vice-versa.

Wait then if that were true then when you overlay the 5 year gold to the 5 year USD it would be roughly the same.

Instead we see US inflation during the 5 year period being about 7% compared to an increase in the price of gold 330%+ in the price of gold.

Gold is just a commodity just like everything else. Except it's a hyped commodity.

[J-Rod]

Not an economist, but I don't agree with the rise of robots taking our jobs talk considering all of human history. It sounds like some people would have outlawed the cotton gin and insisted we keep switchboard operators and human computers.

[Muffdraul]

Capitalism is a resource allocation mechanism, it's not really on life support since there's really no credible competing system. That government ought to intervene in the maintenance of the mechanism doesn't remove its value.

Capitalism doesn't need a competing system. It literally ate itself to death. A system with a central pillar that says "profits must increase, always, no matter what" isn't going to last forever. Eventually it's going to implode. And it did. All they've done is prop up its corpse and pretend it's still alive.

[Byakuya769]

Not an economist, but I don't agree with the rise of robots taking our jobs talk considering all of human history. It sounds like some people would have outlawed the cotton gin and insisted we keep switchboard operators and human computers.

What sectors do you see popping up to accommodate the loss of low-skill/low-wage service jobs?

[leroidys]

Capitalism doesn't need a competing system. It literally ate itself to death. A system with a central pillar that says "profits must increase, always, no matter what" isn't going to last forever. Eventually it's going to implode. And it did. All they've done is prop up its corpse and pretend it's still alive.

Cue Weekend at Bernanke's photoshop.

[Acheron]

Not an economist, but I don't agree with the rise of robots taking our jobs talk considering all of human history. It sounds like some people would have outlawed the cotton gin and insisted we keep switchboard operators and human computers.

It's a tough argument because you see job losses and it isn't clear necessarily where more jobs are coming from. Yet it has always been the case machinery doesn't replace workers merely recycles them into new industries.

[ruxtpin]

I don't get the gold thing because if paper money flops, what the fuck am I supposed to do with gold?

[Acheron]

Capitalism doesn't need a competing system. It literally ate itself to death. A system with a central pillar that says "profits must increase, always, no matter what" isn't going to last forever. Eventually it's going to implode. And it did. All they've done is prop up its corpse and pretend it's still alive.

That's what they said in the Great Depression. Things are profitable because people are willing to pay for them because they are useful and/or wanted. Hence why groups of individuals form businesses to provide those products. Once an industry is full companies either start in different industries or change the game by revolutionizing the product or process associated with the product.

My issue is I can't see the government doing that job better than literally everyone in non-crisis scenarios. The only reason I support government in crises is because the option is between something and nothing, not between a gov't priority and a customer priority.

[replicashooter]

I don't, and I don't think it's historically accurate.

Pray tell, why? Gold backed economies, historically, have been much more stable that fiat fractional reserve ponzi schemes that masquerade as currencies as far as I can tell.

Bullshit. It's because gold is a commodity like any other and you can scare people into buying it up, creating an enormous bubble.

The enormous bubble represents the lack of faith in the aforementioned scheme where people would prefer to hold onto a tangible something (gold) rather than a worthless nothing (paper money).

[Wafflecakes]

Pray tell, why? Gold backed economies, historically, have been much more stable that fiat fractional reserve ponzi schemes that masquerade as currencies as far as I can tell. The enormous bubble represents the lack of faith in the aforementioned scheme where people would prefer to hold onto a tangible something (gold) rather than a worthless nothing (paper money).

Gold bubble is still a bubble. Someday people will realize its just a piece of metal.

(Only stable way to do it would be to back it with land but that ship has already sailed.)

[ronito]

I think we've gotten to a critical mass in technology.

Let's take your cotton gin as an example:
the cotton gin automated one process of production.
But there still had to be people to process the output
Ok then we automated those people out.
But there still needed to be people to tend to the machine
Ok through better technology we needed less and less people
But there still needed to be people to support the machine
Ok, we automated what we could and outsourced what we couldn't.

Where's the jobs left in cotton?

Sure there is some jobs in replacing old cotton gins, but that only needs to happen every great while, especially now with better longer lasting technology and you be sure that even a lot of the design is going to be outsourced. So then where does that leave all those people?

I heard that some Mcdonalds are starting testing out completely automated shops that require only a bare minimum crew.

I hate to sound like a luddite but where are the jobs? They're not in manufacturing that's done cheaper elsewhere. Is it in technology? Not really. We've outsourced most of that. All that's left is in management and invention and not everyone can be one of those.

[ruxtpin]

(Only stable way to do it would be to back it with land but that ship has already sailed.)

You just wait till Lex Luther shows up.

[Acheron]

Pray tell, why? Gold backed economies, historically, have been much more stable that fiat fractional reserve ponzi schemes that masquerade as currencies as far as I can tell. The enormous bubble represents the lack of faith in the aforementioned scheme where people would prefer to hold onto a tangible something (gold) rather than a worthless nothing (paper money).

Gold (aside from a few niche electronic uses) is just as worthless as money. It only has value because some people believe in it. Why not make an oil-based currency, a rice-based currency, a basket currency then? I guess it makes sense to constrain or expand the money supply based on drought, Iranian whining or some galleon sinking.

[ronito]

The enormous bubble represents the lack of faith in the aforementioned scheme where people would prefer to hold onto a tangible something (gold) rather than a worthless nothing (paper money).

His point is it could be a tangible anything like carrots or copper, or lead.

Also it's a bit of a sweet spot to say "Well that's just because gold is being measured by paper money!" sorta excuses you from any kind of possible criticism.

[DarkFlow]

i think it is. ive been saying the bolded for a couple of years now. I noticed at my company the highers up found they can make more money by doing the same amount of work with less people. If you don't like it, think you're doing the job of two people, too bad. You're fired, there's plenty of other job applicants out there.

I think it's time for unions to make a strong come back. Sadly it will never happen because most companies will fire everyone if they even get a whiff of people trying to unionize.

[CharlieDigital]

His point is it could be a tangible anything like carrots.

This reminds me of good times.

Origami Standard!

Say hello to your new $100



The Gold Standard as a concept is just about the stupidest idea ever. Why not platinum standard? Why not diamond standard? Why not uranium standard?

"Hur derp derp because gold has a tradition!" So has salt, sea shells, etc and I don't see anyone calling for a fucking Sea Shell Standard. I mean, everyone would point and laugh at some imbecile that proposed a Sea Shell Standard, right? It's plain stupid to base your currency on something that can be picked up off the ground! Now stand back and listen to yourself.

I mean, a uranium standard would actually mean something tangible because it would be tied to energy production or nuclear weapons. Once you realize that "gold" is an arbitrary "standard", then you can use anything as the basis for a currency standard and then you realize that currency standards based on shit that you can dig out of the ground are a stupid concept because the only standard that matters is "unit of work", which is more or less what debt is (and what oil, uranium, coal can be converted to).

Anyone that mentions any standard based on some mass of atoms that can be dug out of the ground immediately goes into my shit-bin of idiocy (with the exception of cases where said atoms or molecules can be translated into consumable energy).

[ruxtpin]

I vote for the new world currency to be bottle caps. If Fallout taught me anything, it'd be knowing where to look for bottle caps. I will be rich.

[Mgoblue201]

Wait I'm confused. Are we on the same side? The price increase of gold is indicative of a weak dollar, which is inflated through defecit spending and printing money. So, not sure what point you're making. Increasing gold prices reinforce austrian concepts, not vice-versa. I wanted people to see how the price of gold has exploded in the last 30 yrs.

Except there is no great correlation between the two. In this case, the origin of inflated gold prices is that people perceive gold as a safe haven after the financial crisis. This could be because of expected inflation or perhaps, according to Brad DeLong, the perseverance of low long-term real interest rates.

[Muffdraul]

That's what they said in the Great Depression. Things are profitable because people are willing to pay for them because they are useful and/or wanted. Hence why groups of individuals form businesses to provide those products. Once an industry is full companies either start in different industries or change the game by revolutionizing the product or process associated with the product. My issue is I can't see the government doing that job better than literally everyone in non-crisis scenarios. The only reason I support government in crises is because the option is between something and nothing, not between a gov't priority and a customer priority.

We're way past the point of "providing quality good and services" being the primary means to increase profits every year, every quarter. Decades past. That stuff is at the bottom of the food chain. The real money is in global corporatism, leveraged buyouts, off-shoring jobs, derivatives, etc. i.e. The things that are the reason why we need regulations. It's a catch-22. If Wall Street and the corporate world is free to do what they will, well, that's what lead us to where we are right now. But if we impose the necessary regulations on them that will protect the economy from their shenanigans, then it limits their ability to increase profits. Capitalism is fucked. It collapses about every 40 years, we hit the reset button, and start over. I suppose if we've lived with it this long... Personally I think we would have seen a lot more recovery from the 2008 meltdown by now if there hadn't been so much obstructionism.

[T Ghost]

Join America's Comback Team If this doesn't inspire you, nothing will.

The speech featured in this video is the largest bag of empty promises I've ever heard in my 40 years of life. Amazing...

[makingmusic476]

I didn't think we had any more gold standard types left on this forum.

All commodities have relative value based on supply and demand. Gold is no different, and makes for no more a reliable currency than anything else.

At least fiat currencies are entirely within our control.

[140.85]

Hell no.

[Deified Data]

Will assume so until convinced otherwise. Always best to assume the worst. Worst case scenario, you're right and prepared. Best case scenario, you're pleasantly surprised.

[Rebel Leader]

Any time the economy improves, demand for energy - especially oil - will increase, which means the price will increase. Any recovery will be strangled in its crib. Yes, welcome to your new normal.

Just get rid of the DEBT and food and have Gas cover Debt and you have my situation

[replicashooter]

I would really enjoy contributing further to this thread but alas I must put my internetery on hiatus for around a 24 hour period.

If you kind gentlemen who have interjected thus far could arrange to be around on the morrow I will illustrate why all of our current problems are due to the inherent design of our fiscal system and how they can be eradicated using a different concept of money that has been used successfully many times throughout history.

If you're not keen on gold we can base it on carrots if you like, as opposed to what we have now which is based on, you know, nothing...

[Izayoi]

Not really news. Employers make more money with less people, and can hold the fact that the economy sucks over their workers' heads to continue exploiting them. No raise, no vacation, less benefits, longer hours. If you don't like it, feel free to quit - good luck finding another job! It's not like there aren't tons of desperate people with families to support lining up to replace you, so we definitely won't miss you. All of this while profits and productivity skyrocket.

It sucks, and there's literally nothing we can do about it. If the republicans don't destroy the country, corporate greed will.

[Czigga]

Gold (aside from a few niche electronic uses) is just as worthless as money. It only has value because some people believe in it. Why not make an oil-based currency, a rice-based currency, a basket currency then? I guess it makes sense to constrain or expand the money supply based on drought, Iranian whining or some galleon sinking.

Competing currencies! Now you're talking!

[Acheron]

We're way past the point of "providing quality good and services" being the primary means to increase profits every year, every quarter. Decades past. That stuff is at the bottom of the food chain. The real money is in global corporatism, leveraged buyouts, off-shoring jobs, derivatives, etc. i.e. The things that are the reason why we need regulations. It's a catch-22. If Wall Street and the corporate world is free to do what they will, well, that's what lead us to where we are right now. But if we impose the necessary regulations on them that will protect the economy from their shenanigans, then it limits their ability to increase profits. Capitalism is fucked. It collapses about every 40 years, we hit the reset button, and start over. I suppose if we've lived with it this long... Personally I think we would have seen a lot more recovery from the 2008 meltdown by now if there hadn't been so much obstructionism.

If I invented a machine that could create vast amounts of quality products at the price of peanuts, would I be a hero or a villain?

Functionally off-shoring and the above scenario are barely different in result. Just because manufacturing jobs move overseas (and to be quite honest US manufacturing is growing again) doesn't mean a perpetual loss of economic vitality. I doubt Bengalis undercutting the textile industry has injured the West severely.

As for derivatives they are overwhelmingly used as risk management tools, having been developed centuries ago by farmers. CDSs are new but fundamentally were designed to repackage the risk in a company to allow it to borrow and expand more freely. I firmly believe more stringent disclosure of CDSs are required but the idea behind them need not be destructive. Financial firm CDSs created contagion but were not the root cause of the crisis, poor lending standards and monitoring were.

[WeAreStarStuff]

Study finds middle class endured worst decade since WWII as wages stagnate; many feel squeezed.
The middle class is receiving less of America's total income, declining to its smallest share in decades as median wages stagnate in the economic doldrums and wealth concentrates at the top.

A study released Wednesday by the Pew Research Center highlights diminished hopes, too, for the roughly 50 percent of adults defined as middle class, with household incomes ranging from $39,000 to $118,000. The report describes this mid-tier group as suffering its "worst decade in modern history," having fallen backward in income for the first time since the end of World War II.

Long article at the link:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/middle...165228920.html

[Izayoi]

All hail the free market.

[J-Rod]

What sectors do you see popping up to accommodate the loss of low-skill/low-wage service jobs?

Most of these new jobs are probably unforeseeable. Could you have predicted the existence of the drive-thru when horse cart making was still a viable profession? Could you have qualified the consumer use of electric freezer/refrigeration technology by predicted those same service jobs when we phased out people who's job was to deliver blocks of ice to someone's ice box?

[Kinitari]

That's why I rage against any automated service when possible. Any book you can recommend? Sounds like Zeitgeist type stuff, product of peak oil.

Lights in the Tunnel/Race against the machine - they aren't that zeitgeisty.

[Pixel_boy]

Sorry top say but it going to be this bad for a long still still it only just the start we just happen to be the unlucky ones

A Car and a Phone are not must have

[demon]

Lights in the Tunnel/Race against the machine - they aren't that zeitgeisty.

I've also read and recommend Lights in the Tunnel.

[Jason's Ultimatum]

Not an economist, but I don't agree with the rise of robots taking our jobs talk considering all of human history. It sounds like some people would have outlawed the cotton gin and insisted we keep switchboard operators and human computers.

Read up on Theodor Adorno.

[Tex117]

Hope and Change

indeed