[Delusibeta]

Let's wait until after this election

If that's an implication that either a) Romney and Ryan getting elected and they won't immediately apply austerity (which will have the same effect as it did in Europe i.e. a return to recession) or b) Obama getting re-elected will result in the two houses finishing their interpretation of a glacier, then I think you're misguided.

[speculawyer]

Can't do it because raising gasoline taxes will fuck a country when its shipping depends on big ass trucks driving millions of miles a day. Let's raise gas prices! Okay now food costs 15% more because it all gets somewhere in a truck. If it were to happen it would have to be during an absolute boom time.

It would certainly affect the price of everything since everything is transported by oil. However, I don't think it would raise food prices by 15% . . . it doesn't make up that much of the price of food.

And hopefully, it would cause people to eat more local food and start using rail more than trucks since rail is FAR more efficient.

But here is the real kicker . . . not raising the taxes isn't going to help much because the price will go up on its own anyway.

Honestly in the short-run that'll fuck me over so much. Maybe other people won't be, but I'll be in big trouble. What do I do about the short-term? I don't have any options. If I needed a more efficient car (which i'd love to have), well I couldn't unless i'm basically given something that I "don't deserve".

Well, it could be done in a phased in way. Perhaps raise it by 5 cents per gallon each month for a couple years.

And . . . it could be done in a revenue neutral way. Raise the gas tax but lower the income taxes by the same amount. This way the people would be paying no more in tax but the tax would be changed into a consumption tax that would affect their behavior.


BTW, GM's CEO called for a $1/gallon gas tax last year. Amazing.
http://money.cnn.com/2011/06/07/news...hike/index.htm


But this is all pretty academic. It is not going to happen. Neither party would suggest it because it is political suicide.

[Jimothy]

Oh there are things we could do. We just don't want to do them. We could do what they did in Europe . . . tax gasoline heavily. That encourages more efficient cars, it encourages more logical living situations that don't require long commutes, it causes the populace to demand better public transportation options, etc. But raising gasoline taxes is political suicide in the USA.

This is a terrible idea. American sprawls are simply not conducive to anything but cars. They were purposefully designed that way and a gasoline tax is only going to fuck over the average commuter more than they're already getting fucked over. Cheap(er) gas is one of the few things we've got going.

[Fisticuffs]

The world just needs to hit the reset button. Start from scratch!

[Drazgul]

The world just needs to hit the reset button. Start from scratch!

The US ≠ world.

[Acheron]

There would be nothing exceptionally wrong with the government using stimulus funds to build a natural gas or electric car grid and actually producing the thing in a very labour intensive way. So long as the gov't winds up the program at the right time.

Still though I think the extent to which oil prices are the cause of the crisis is a bit overblown. Oil dependency did not cause Japanese stagnation, deleveraging and a subsequent liquidity trap that curbed investment and killed inflation did.

[Fisticuffs]

The US ≠ world.

no shit? THIS WHOLE TIME... actually I originally wrote "the US" but then i thought to myself.. I need to think bigger. :D theres a lot more wrong with this world than transportation!

[beastmode]

correct me if i'm wrong but couldn't obama have used the auto industry to create the high-speed rail and what not that the u.s. needs?

[Thaedolus]

Corporations are only interested in their bottom lines, thus well-paying jobs are expendable if they can be automated or easily outsourced.

Good jobs that can't be automated or easily outsourced require good education.

Good education is already incredibly expensive. Most people getting degrees are shackled by student loans for years afterward. Austerity measures are only going to make this worse.

The result is what is becoming an increasingly large gap between the haves and the have-nots. I was lucky to come from a family of means that put me through school, but if we continue down the path of cutting access to education and pulling the safety net out from under those who aren't stuck in the unemployment line, we'll start having the same kind of riots and protests as the rest of the world. It's not rocket science.

[commedieu]

If that's an implication that either a) Romney and Ryan getting elected and they won't immediately apply austerity (which will have the same effect as it did in Europe i.e. a return to recession) or b) Obama getting re-elected will result in the two houses finishing their interpretation of a glacier, then I think you're misguided.

Austerity as it is today, just pays the banks back debt owed.

Corporations are only interested in their bottom lines, thus well-paying jobs are expendable if they can be automated or easily outsourced. Good jobs that can't be automated or easily outsourced require good education. Good education is already incredibly expensive. Most people getting degrees are shackled by student loans for years afterward. Austerity measures are only going to make this worse. The result is what is becoming an increasingly large gap between the haves and the have-nots. I was lucky to come from a family of means that put me through school, but if we continue down the path of cutting access to education and pulling the safety net out from under those who aren't stuck in the unemployment line, we'll start having the same kind of riots and protests as the rest of the world. It's not rocket science.

Yep.

[Acheron]

Corporations are only interested in their bottom lines, thus well-paying jobs are expendable if they can be automated or easily outsourced. Good jobs that can't be automated or easily outsourced require good education. Good education is already incredibly expensive. Most people getting degrees are shackled by student loans for years afterward. Austerity measures are only going to make this worse. The result is what is becoming an increasingly large gap between the haves and the have-nots. I was lucky to come from a family of means that put me through school, but if we continue down the path of cutting access to education and pulling the safety net out from under those who aren't stuck in the unemployment line, we'll start having the same kind of riots and protests as the rest of the world. It's not rocket science.

I think it's fair to say education should be more affordable, there's certainly an argument education isn't very consumer focused or efficient. However increasing student loan/grant funding via the government merely allows universities to raise prices further as you really have little choice but to accept the terms they give you. I imagine more competition would be better, but the current online options are all scams.

[ronito]

It would certainly affect the price of everything since everything is transported by oil. However, I don't think it would raise food prices by 15% . . . it doesn't make up that much of the price of food. And hopefully, it would cause people to eat more local food and start using rail more than trucks since rail is FAR more efficient. But here is the real kicker . . . not raising the taxes isn't going to help much because the price will go up on its own anyway. Well, it could be done in a phased in way. Perhaps raise it by 5 cents per gallon each month for a couple years. And . . . it could be done in a revenue neutral way. Raise the gas tax but lower the income taxes by the same amount. This way the people would be paying no more in tax but the tax would be changed into a consumption tax that would affect their behavior. BTW, GM's CEO called for a $1/gallon gas tax last year. Amazing. http://money.cnn.com/2011/06/07/news...hike/index.htm But this is all pretty academic. It is not going to happen. Neither party would suggest it because it is political suicide.

Yeah, I can think of few things to crater the economy faster.

We're not setup like Europe. We don't have the public transportation to make this possible let alone rail system or the shipment systems to allow for goods to be transported cheaply. Nor does it make much economic sense to think that grown locally means consumed locally (Freakonomics did a whole episode on this)

Further take into account that a majority of people cannot afford to live in the city they work in this would disproportionately impact the poor.

I'd be all for this if we had European infrastructure sure that might work but we don't and we're not gonna.

Corporations are only interested in their bottom lines, thus well-paying jobs are expendable if they can be automated or easily outsourced. Good jobs that can't be automated or easily outsourced require good education. Good education is already incredibly expensive. Most people getting degrees are shackled by student loans for years afterward. Austerity measures are only going to make this worse. The result is what is becoming an increasingly large gap between the haves and the have-nots. I was lucky to come from a family of means that put me through school, but if we continue down the path of cutting access to education and pulling the safety net out from under those who aren't stuck in the unemployment line, we'll start having the same kind of riots and protests as the rest of the world. It's not rocket science.

I dunno about the argument that well educated jobs can't be outsourced.

I see programming, engineering, HR, marketing analysis and even bits of X-ray/MRI and stuff being outsourced.

The only jobs that I think are fairly safe from outsourcing are Lawyers and Doctors but even then there's been companies that outsourced their legal questions desk and some insurance companies are starting to send people to India to get their procedures done there instead of stateside.

[Fisticuffs]

correct me if i'm wrong but couldn't obama have used the auto industry to create the high-speed rail and what not that the u.s. needs?

hahaha Obama doesn't have that kind of power.

[commedieu]

hahaha Obama doesn't have that kind of power.

exactly.

And the oil companies, that OBAMA & ROMNEY are going to have to cater to, don'twant this.

So its not going to happen, because this is how we allow our country to be ran.

thats what is the biggest joke about the 2 party system. In instances like these, they are identical. we just argue over morals.

[Izayoi]

USA really have a thing for cars do you guys ever walk? or take a bus it can't be that hard

This becomes true if you have a little kid. Otherwise I have yet to see a city in US where it's too difficult to move around with some public transport, biking and walking involved. It's inconvenient - far more inconvenient than anywhere in Europe - but still doable.

Yeah, because all of those people working slave wages can afford to live in the city, right?

Oh wait.

I drive 40 fucking miles (one way!) to work, every day. Yeah, walking is totally an option. Three hour bus ride? No problem!

It's amazing to me how detached from reality some people are. Get a grip.

Then stop the corporations. Putting higher taxes on them would be the first step.

Easier said than done. Half the country wants to see all workers stripped of their rights and give corporations absolute control over everything (you could argue it's already like that, in some ways). The country is going down in flames, one way or another. There's no fixing it at this point.

[speculawyer]

This is a terrible idea. American sprawls are simply not conducive to anything but cars. They were purposefully designed that way and a gasoline tax is only going to fuck over the average commuter more than they're already getting fucked over. Cheap(er) gas is one of the few things we've got going.

And therein lies the rub. Whether we raise gas taxes or not, gasoline prices are going to go up over time. Better to raise them now, make some revenue off it, and start becoming more efficient with oil than to just let nature take its course.

In the long term, change is coming no matter what . . . it is only a question of whether we want to prepare for it or not. But, just as we do with everything else, we'll just kick the can down the road.

[Acheron]

Is there any comparison of transportation spend as percentage of gdp by country (covers running cost/expenditure not new investments)? Would help to determine if gas prices are really the trigger.

[Izayoi]

Is there any comparison of transportation spend as percentage of gdp by country (covers running cost/expenditure not new investments)? Would help to determine if gas prices are really the trigger.

I spend over $3,800 a year on gas alone. Another $900 a year on car insurance. Probably another $500 on general upkeep. There are people who pay the same on less than a quarter of what I make. I do think it'd be an interesting statistic.

[Kinitari]

The big change coming in the tech sector is 3D printing, not robots. Robots serving you at McDonald's is a long way off. 3D Printing is starting to gear up now. This is going to hurt the 3rd world big time, since it will be far cheaper to print up the less complicated components than buying them from overseas.

Uh... automated fast food kiosks are rolling out noww, 3d printing is no where near ready to replace production, maybe in another decade

[Thaedolus]

I dunno about the argument that well educated jobs can't be outsourced.

But I didn't say jobs that require a good education can't be outsourced, I said jobs that can't be outsourced require a good education.

[beastmode]

hahaha Obama doesn't have that kind of power.

did the united states government not own more than 50% of GM?

edit: i don't see how it would be different than the industry being converted for war production during wwii

[Lord Error]

Yeah, because all of those people working slave wages can afford to live in the city, right? Oh wait. I drive 40 fucking miles (one way!) to work, every day. Yeah, walking is totally an option. Three hour bus ride? No problem! It's amazing to me how detached from reality some people are. Get a grip.

I can't believe it would be a 3 hour bus ride even for 40 miles... I was going to work and back from work every day for 6 years or so here in Canada with public transport, it took half and hour at most for 10 or 15 miles not sure. Not as extreme as your case, but I think a case where people would travel as much as I did would be far more frequent than those who travel as much as you do.

The big change coming in the tech sector is 3D printing, not robots. Robots serving you at McDonald's is a long way off. 3D Printing is starting to gear up now. This is going to hurt the 3rd world big time, since it will be far cheaper to print up the less complicated components than buying them from overseas.

Not really long way off at all. It's rolling on right now in fact. Well, the system that I was making is a touch screen ordering, so there's still someone in the kitchen that puts the burger together, but all the people actually taking orders are not needed anymore. 3D printing will also have its own impact on different industries, no doubt, but not quite as imminent.

[pigeon]

But I didn't say jobs that require a good education can't be outsourced, I said jobs that can't be outsourced require a good education.

I dunno. The quintessential example of a job that can't be outsourced is waiting tables -- no matter what it costs, if you want to run a restaurant in San Francisco you need to hire people from the Bay Area to work in it. This is why America's economy keeps becoming more and more service-focused. I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with this -- if technological advance really does make people richer, they're going to need more services -- but it's going to require a serious shift in our ideas of what people do all day.

[ronito]

But I didn't say jobs that require a good education can't be outsourced, I said jobs that can't be outsourced require a good education.

Fair enough, but they're finding ways to outsource that.
More and more you hear about how initial prognosises on MRIs and X-Rays are done in India and the like.

I'm just saying that first we were told "Get a good skill set that'll get you a job."

Then the manufacturing jobs went away.

Then they were like "Get a good education in a technical field, that'll get you a job!"

Now we're seeing the technical jobs being outsourced.

So I worry that the whole "Get a good education!" isn't gonna cut it. Like I said in my prior post even lawyers and doctors are starting to be outsourced so there's no real safe place. Corps are looking to cut as many costs as possible and with today's technology it's just a matter of time.

[bud23]

The world just needs to hit the reset button. Start from scratch!

It's not so easy to do.

[JasonMCG]

If your finances were in the shape of those of the federal and state governments, you would have to make some pretty tough decisions to get yourself back on track. We cannot continue to support a welfare society. If people are always giving you stuff, where is the incentive to do anything for yourself. Yes, we must help those who need a hand up, but a large and growing group of people, (over 40 million) now believe they need something for nothing. This is wrong and needs to change. The kool aid drinkers will continue to blame those that pay most of the taxes. Can you believe that nearly half of the country pays NO TAXES. This needs to change.

EDIT: I don't believe everyone on welfare is a freeloader and I know the process of getting/staying on unemployment benefits is rigorous.

[pigeon]

If your finances were in the shape of those of the federal and state governments, you would have to make some pretty tough decisions to get yourself back on track. We cannot continue to support a welfare society. If people are always giving you stuff, where is the incentive to do anything for yourself. Yes, we must help those who need a hand up, but a large and growing group of people, (over 40 million) now believe they need something for nothing. This is wrong and needs to change. The kool aid drinkers will continue to blame those that pay most of the taxes. Can you believe that nearly half of the country pays NO TAXES. This needs to change.

The worst part is, after everybody responds to you, people are going to complain that conservatives on NeoGAF get no respect.

(Everything you posted is utter and complete bullshit, jointly and severally.)

[ronito]

. Can you believe that nearly half of the country pays NO TAXES. This needs to change.

WHAT? This is news!

[jb1234]

I can't believe it would be a 3 hour bus ride even for 40 miles... I was going to work and back from work every day for 6 years or so here in Canada with public transport, it took half and hour at most for 10 or 15 miles not sure. Not as extreme as your case, but I think a case where people would travel as much as I did would be far more frequent than those who travel as much as you do.

It's not uncommon in the US, especially with multiple transfers. My hometown is thirty miles away and it's a two hour bus ride.

[OldAsUrSock]

USA really have a thing for cars do you guys ever walk? or take a bus it can't be that hard

Yes, walking 30+mi to get to work is so much better than a car =/

[KHarvey16]

If your finances were in the shape of those of the federal and state governments, you would have to make some pretty tough decisions to get yourself back on track.

Do not compare the finances of governments with those of individuals.

Can you believe that nearly half of the country pays NO TAXES. This needs to change.

46% of the population pays no federal income taxes. Why? Because they don't get paid enough money.

[Fisticuffs]

If your finances were in the shape of those of the federal and state governments, you would have to make some pretty tough decisions to get yourself back on track. We cannot continue to support a welfare society. If people are always giving you stuff, where is the incentive to do anything for yourself. Yes, we must help those who need a hand up, but a large and growing group of people, (over 40 million) now believe they need something for nothing. This is wrong and needs to change. The kool aid drinkers will continue to blame those that pay most of the taxes. Can you believe that nearly half of the country pays NO TAXES. This needs to change. EDIT: I don't believe everyone on welfare is a freeloader and I know the process of getting/staying on unemployment benefits is rigorous.

what a.. very unpopular opinion you have there, lol

[Lord Error]

It's not uncommon in the US, especially with multiple transfers. My hometown is thirty miles away and it's a two hour bus ride.

Yeah, you have a point about transfers. I was lucky that I didn't need to do that. Bus I was taking was infrequent enough, can't imagine how bad it would be that I had to wait on two or more of those.

[JasonMCG]

WHAT? This is news!

I meant federal income tax. There's payroll, sales, state income, property taxes, etc.

[Dave Inc.]

Do not compare the finances of governments with those of individuals.

What, every household isn't a sovereign nation with the ability to issue its own currency? Poppycock!

[ronito]

I meant federal income tax. There's payroll, sales, state income, property taxes, etc.

Oh oh while we're being all indignant what about the 69% of corporations that don't pay taxes?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1196875.html

Can I get all indignant about them too? Oh wait they're coprorations the ubermensch, I guess I can't.

[KHarvey16]

What, every household isn't a sovereign nation with the ability to issue its own currency? Poppycock!

I tried once. Trade within the household seemed ok but importing goods from Best Buy was just not happening. Negotiations broke down quickly and we had to go our separate ways.

[Natetan]

I don't want to think it is, but I kind of think so.

Frankly the US has seemed down since the bush II presidency started. The growth in 2000s always seemed fake to me.

It's a shame. I remember feeling so optimistic about the new millennium back in the 90's especially about the US, and it's been a bit scary almost how much it hasn't lived up to those expectations.

i try and remember that the great depression lasted for quite a long time. It must have been rough from the early 30's until the late 40's, probably felt like 'new normal back then' just war and depression. Hopefully this 'new norm' will only last as long as that time span did.

but then part of me thinks the US and EU are on the road to Japan, and I am a little smug in that because everyone thought the economies were totally different and that japan was some lame excuse of a miracle economy that was a disaster to be learned from. Seems like the real estate bubble, quantitative easing is all the exact same stuff japan did.

[Fenderputty]

Regarding housing ... I'm not sure why anyone would say "only those who dont need loans can get them."

I definitely needed loan. I got my FHA loan. You just need good credit (700+). So from my perspective, the only people who are saying this probably shouldn't be taking out loans in the first place.

[Wazzim]

Do not compare the finances of governments with those of individuals.

I've seen politicians do this on TV, a large part of the electorate of western democracies believe in it. So depressing lol

[Piecake]

I meant federal income tax. There's payroll, sales, state income, property taxes, etc.

and if you add up all of those taxes together, our taxes are basically flat. Making poor people pay federal tax will simply make them pay a greater percentage of their earnings than the average rich dude.

[Anticitizen One]

America is basically 90s Japan right now

[Izayoi]

Not as extreme as your case, but I think a case where people would travel as much as I did would be far more frequent than those who travel as much as you do.

What you think unfortunately does not change reality, and the reality is that there are no jobs where I live, and many are forced to commute extreme distances. Most of the time across counties, which is why it takes 3 hours. A mile to walk to the bus stop, ride to the edge of the service area, another half mile to walk to the starting point of a different county's bus system, a long wait because the the scheduling makes no allowances for out of county travelers, and finally another very long bus ride followed by a half mile walk.

If your finances were in the shape of those of the federal and state governments, you would have to make some pretty tough decisions to get yourself back on track. We cannot continue to support a welfare society. If people are always giving you stuff, where is the incentive to do anything for yourself. Yes, we must help those who need a hand up, but a large and growing group of people, (over 40 million) now believe they need something for nothing. This is wrong and needs to change. The kool aid drinkers will continue to blame those that pay most of the taxes. Can you believe that nearly half of the country pays NO TAXES. This needs to change.

Unbelievable that half of our fucking country thinks like you do. We deserve to go down in flames, we really do. The ignorance is so pervasive that there's no way to fix it.

[quaere]

The US economy booming to the extent that the bottom half of workers in skill level can make a decent living through the capitalist system is over, forever. None of these workers offer any benefit over far, far cheaper foreign competition. The top half is still competitive and will drive any future growth.

Whether the "new normal" includes the bottom noncompetitive half struggling to survive depends on whether the welfare state steps up to save these people by redistributing more income from the top half.

[Slavik81]

did the united states government not own more than 50% of GM? edit: i don't see how it would be different than the industry being converted for war production during wwii

The fundamental problem with the United States is a lack of political will to make any real change. Nothing illustrates that better than the debt ceiling crisis. Even on the brink of disaster, the government was paralysed. The only thing they could agree on was delaying having to come to an agreement.

No bold move could possibly find enough support to pass.

[FLEABttn]

USA really have a thing for cars do you guys ever walk? or take a bus it can't be that hard

I live 7 miles away from my job and it takes a bus an hour to get from the stop near my house to the stop near work. Car takes 15 minutes and I don't waste time with my work schedule on trying to flex that around a bus schedule.

[pigeon]

I meant federal income tax. There's payroll, sales, state income, property taxes, etc.

So why did you say "no taxes" when what you really meant was "they don't pay one specific tax out of the dozen different taxes Americans pay in various ways?"

Oh, right, because deception is the only way to make your argument not obviously idiotic.

[vcassano1]

Well I hope you are right and that we can turn this economy around. I tend to have a pessimistic view that shades my economic forecasting. I hope I'm wrong.

Well, it can be done, but will it be? I share your pessimism.

[Kad5]

All hail the free market.

>Implying our economy is a free market and not simply state monopoly capitalism, crony capitalism, corporatism or a mixed economy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_monopoly_capitalism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crony_capitalism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_economies

[scorcho]

i remember writing a long time ago - probably around the time of the first bail out - that the US economy was going to be permanently changed by this. 20+ years of increasing instability brought about by an overly powerful financial sector and the growing importance of international money flows would force our hand.

we could never maintain those low unemployment numbers of yore forever, and we're now seeing what Europe has for generations.