[FieryBalrog]

No. If DotA and Dota 2 have proved anything already, it's that there really is something out there for a game with mechanics running this deep. Changing the mechanics would just dumb the game down, and make it much less interesting than it actually is. I've been playing for quite a while now, and I STILL learn something new almost every day about the game's mechanics. Yesterday I learned that Puck's Phase Shift does not dispel Silencer's Curse of the Silent (although it does avoid the damage and mana drain while you are Phase Shifted, but comes back if it's still going as soon as the time is up).

Wow, arbitrary mechanical interactions are really "deep". Can't believe this archaic garbage still gets defended. Thankfully Riot brought something fresh to the genre, while Valve is content to throw money at a carbon copy recreation of the outdated original. It's mind boggling how utterly derivative DotA 2 is.

[Stahsky]

Wow, arbitrary mechanical interactions are really "deep". Can't believe this archaic garbage still gets defended. Thankfully Riot brought something fresh to the genre, while Valve is content to throw money at a carbon copy recreation of the outdated original. It's mind boggling how utterly derivative DotA 2 is.

Hey look, more of the same from you

[Archie]

Wow, arbitrary mechanical interactions are really "deep". Can't believe this archaic garbage still gets defended. Thankfully Riot brought something fresh to the genre, while Valve is content to throw money at a carbon copy recreation of the outdated original. It's mind boggling how utterly derivative DotA 2 is.

Serious question: Why do you have such a hate boner for Dota? Every single thread I've seen you post in you trash the game.

[FieryBalrog]

Serious question: Why do you have such a hate boner for Dota? Every single thread I've seen you post in you trash the game.

Because I believe it, and the first page is full of more of the same mindless worship at the altar of Valve and hating on Riot, a company that is pretty flawed but also pretty stand-up in many ways.

250k viewers for the S1 LoL championship, versus 750k viewers for TI2 finals. I think the actual number is already closer than people think; however number of players are skewed by the fact the Dota 2 is still by invite only. China have the most Dota 2 players is kinda ironic, considering where Tencent is from.

Sadly, Chinese players also count for very very little when it comes to revenue.

[Stahsky]

Because I believe it, and the first page is full of more of the same mindless worship at the altar of Valve and hating on Riot, a company that is pretty flawed but also pretty stand-up in many ways. Sadly, Chinese players also count for very very little when it comes to revenue.

Riot did some nice things, but this thread is about them doing some bad things. So what's the deal?

[Archie]

Because I believe it

I don't like Dragon Quest, but I don't go shitting up those threads.

Riot, a company that is pretty flawed but also pretty stand-up in many ways.

Trying to force companies to kick out their Dota teams is "stand-up"? Interesting.

[Grakl]

Never mind, I'm not doing this.

[rac]

Trying to force companies to kick out their Dota teams is "stand-up"? Interesting.

Hey at least they backed down from it. Certain valve affiliates should look at this as a shining example of the industry.

[FieryBalrog]

Trying to force companies to kick out their Dota teams is "stand-up"? Interesting.

Please read full sentences and not halves. Thanks!

[Angry Puppy]

Because I believe it, and the first page is full of more of the same mindless worship at the altar of Valve and hating on Riot, a company that is pretty flawed but also pretty stand-up in many ways.

riot isnt a very stand-up company lol. dont know how you got that idea.

[Pureauthor]

I dunno why they try so hard to make LoL a big name in competitive games when the whole design philosophy of LoL was to make a casual version of DotA without the intense competitive nature.

Edit: Riot a stand-up company. What. Regardless of your opinions on Valve/Icefrog, Riot is not anywhere near the definition of stand-up.

[PsychoSoldier]

Man I find the hatred from both sides kind of weird. I like both games, and like watching both games competitively. I'm glad Riot decided to not go to the extremes they thought about going to, though it'd be nice to have DOTA2 at MLG as well.

I really, truly think that there's room for both games and that they can, in a sense, be good for each other.

Edit: Regarding LoL as a competitive game, though I think that its' barrier to entry is lower than DOTA2's is, there's still a sufficiently high skill cap to make watching it competitively interesting (at least to me).

[hamchan]

Because I believe it, and the first page is full of more of the same mindless worship at the altar of Valve and hating on Riot, a company that is pretty flawed but also pretty stand-up in many ways.

If you're just going to call what everyone says "mindless worship" and "hating", essentially being disrespectful to people's opinions, then why the heck would anyone show respect or even listen to what you have to say.

[Archie]

Please read full sentences and not halves. Thanks!

Riot has done some stand up things, including supporting charities with skin sales and participating in the Make-A-Wish program, but that doesn't mean they are immune from criticism for their less than altruistic decisions.

[FieryBalrog]

If you're just going to call what everyone says "mindless worship" and "hating", essentially being disrespectful, then why the heck would anyone show respect or even listen to what you have to say.

I sure hope Dota 2 dominates them. Valve doing everything pro-fans, pro-teams, pro-e-sports in general.

I guess it's mindful worship, then.

[Randdalf]

I don't think that's the only thing it has going for it. LoL doesn't feel like I'm playing it on 300 ping all the time, DOTA 2 does. The DOTA 2 shop is still a mess. I'm sure it's amazing for people who have been playing DOTA for 10 years, but I was actually pretty disappointed in DOTA 2 coming from LoL. I imagine a lot of others coming from LoL as their first MOBA will feel similarly. Edit: Maybe it's just not obvious why things like the secret shop actually add to the game. LoL took away a lot of stuff and aside from denying a lot of that seems like cruft now that doesn't really add anything.

Well the secret shops as I understand it are from limitations in WC3 involving the number of items available in a map or something like that. One thing that they do change compared to LoL, the side shops at least, is lane presence as does the courier - rarely do heroes leave the lane.


edit: Dota 2 is not meant to redefine the genre, it's saying that the original game IS the genre and then improving the stuff outside of that.

[Pureauthor]

Well one thing the Secret Shop does affect is that if you're squeezed back to your base, completing X item that requires the Secret Shop becomes that much harder.

[Orayn]

I guess it's mindful worship, then.

In light of this correction, your overall message is... "Stop liking what I don't like, and stop disliking what I do like?" We are truly exploring the final frontier of rational discourse here.

[dimb]

This thread is somehow filled with more misinformation about both games than I thought imaginable.

Honestly it's shocking that this rumor ever even took off. How could anyone think it's true?

[hamchan]

I guess it's mindful worship, then.

I praise Valve when they deserve to be praised yet I frequently criticize them when they do things I don't approve of, like their lackluster support on Steam, how unclear they are about what happens to our games if Steam shuts down, their added clause about class-action lawsuits etc.

I don't think they've done one thing wrong with how they've been handling Dota 2, therefore praise.

So don't be so fast to generalize and throw labels on people.

[Hylian7]

This thread is somehow filled with more misinformation about both games than I thought imaginable. Honestly it's shocking that this rumor ever even took off. How could anyone think it's true?

But it wasn't just a rumor it turned out, read the rest of the thread.

[Exuro]

This thread is somehow filled with more misinformation about both games than I thought imaginable. Honestly it's shocking that this rumor ever even took off. How could anyone think it's true?

Did you read that much of this thread? Some esport team ceos confirmed it was true as of last week.

[Moaradin]

Riot is hilarious for even thinking about doing this despicable shit.

[dimb]

But it wasn't just a rumor it turned out, read the rest of the thread.

I read the rest of the thread. I read a decent amount of offsite background information on this. The only "proof" comes from people who wouldn't be dealing with Riot anyways.

[vertopci]

Wow, arbitrary mechanical interactions are really "deep". Can't believe this archaic garbage still gets defended. Thankfully Riot brought something fresh to the genre, while Valve is content to throw money at a carbon copy recreation of the outdated original. It's mind boggling how utterly derivative DotA 2 is.

Sounds to me someone is butthurt they suck at dota.

[Artanisix]

I read the rest of the thread. I read a decent amount of offsite background information on this. The only "proof" comes from people who wouldn't be dealing with Riot anyways.

...No? Actual people who TALK TO RIOT confirmed it.

[iamblades]

What makes DotA 2 a better game to watch than LoL is hero variety and longer distance chase/initiation abilities, not any of the mechanical intricacies. There is just a much wider range in the types of plays that can be made in DotA relative to LOL

[Mister Saturn]

I guess it's mindful worship, then.

This is particularly rich coming from you.

[Archie]

What makes dota 2 a better game to watch than LoL is hero variety and longer distance chase/initiation abilities, not any of the mechanical intricacies.

avatarquote

[dimb]

...No? Actual people who TALK TO RIOT confirmed it.

Really? Because the only people I see supposedly confirming it are groups that don't have League teams.

[Angry Puppy]

Riot is hilarious for even thinking about doing this despicable shit.

currently the LoL game doesn't compare to dota 2 competitively, so they have to use tactics similar to this. id rather they spend their time making the game better for the competitive scene instead of forcing their way in with money.

[Hylian7]

avatarquote

I laughed harder than I should have.

[iamblades]

avatarquote

I'm talking about variety in hero abilities, not variety of heroes being played, but I get your point.

The point is not that there are a bunch of different heroes being played, but that the heroes being played play vastly differently. LoL heroes are much more archetypal. Morphling and AM might be really commonly played, but they play completely different from each other and use completely different item builds, while most LoL carries are way more similar.

[Neki]

Really? Because the only people I see supposedly confirming it are groups that don't have League teams.

Rileno, a Complexity employee also confirmed this. I wonder why Riot would outright deny such a thing when it turned out to be true.

uh what, just because they don't have a team it's not legit?

[dimb]

uh what, just because they don't have a team it's not legit?

Yes? Why would any of those teams be aware of what is going on with the League scene? Why aren't teams with League teams saying stuff? I know pro players I can ask about this later, but I'm really not expecting to hear anything.

[wonderdung]

Well the secret shops as I understand it are from limitations in WC3 involving the number of items available in a map or something like that. One thing that they do change compared to LoL, the side shops at least, is lane presence as does the courier - rarely do heroes leave the lane. edit: Dota 2 is not meant to redefine the genre, it's saying that the original game IS the genre and then improving the stuff outside of that.

Yeah, that's one of the things that really bugged me about DOTA 2... it felt like I was still playing WC3. Even little stuff like keybinding heroes with ctrl+number, courier controls, shop interface. All of it just felt archaic. I was actually quite disappointed in Valve as I feel there's a lot of room to improve on this stuff... and LoL has illustrated some of that even though the core mechanics are pretty fundamentally different.

Obviously it's nothing players can't get used to, but if we're honest LoL has brought a ton of new people into the genre and I can't imagine all of them being pleased with how clunky DOTA 2 feels in comparison to LoL.

[widgetraf]

Hey at least they backed down from it. Certain valve affiliates should look at this as a shining example of the industry.

I thought of shooting up a kindergarten last Monday, but then backed down from that idea after some thought (and backlash from friends). I should be a shining example as well.

[scy]

This thread makes me wonder why I even like the genre with such a bitter and spiteful community they have. Even on GAF.

[Hylian7]

Yeah, that's one of the things that really bugged me about DOTA 2... it felt like I was still playing WC3. Even little stuff like keybinding heroes with ctrl+number, courier controls, shop interface. All of it just felt archaic. I was actually quite disappointed in Valve as I feel there's a lot of room to improve on this stuff... and LoL has illustrated some of that even though the core mechanics are pretty fundamentally different. Obviously it's nothing players can't get used to, but if we're honest LoL has brought a ton of new people into the genre and I can't imagine all of them being pleased with how clunky DOTA 2 feels in comparison to LoL.

How is any of this archaic? I don't know how else you would be expected to do that stuff (save for the shop maybe). You have to micro multiple units sometimes, they handle it with good controls, and I fail to see the problem with that. On top of that, if I remember correctly, doesn't LoL not even have shift queueing? Does LoL have any heroes with microing at all? The only one I hear about is Annie with what is pretty much Warlock's ultimate. How does that work with LoL's controls?

[Lead Based Paint]

So much hate and fanboyism in this thread.

This thread makes me wonder why I even like the genre with such a bitter and spiteful community they have. Even on GAF.

[Woo-Fu]

Doesn't really matter what Riot does at this point, DOTA2 will be the competitive MOBA of choice eventually. Room enough for both of them, either way.

[Haly]

How is any of this archaic? I don't know how else you would be expected to do that stuff (save for the shop maybe). You have to micro multiple units sometimes, they handle it with good controls, and I fail to see the problem with that. On top of that, if I remember correctly, doesn't LoL not even have shift queueing? Does LoL have any heroes with microing at all? The only one I hear about is Annie with what is pretty much Warlock's ultimate. How does that work with LoL's controls?

Alt + Mouse clicks to control alternate units. They also have a tendency to drop what they're doing and tether to their owner.

There is close to 0 amount of micro in League of Legends for this very reason.

[Aesthet1c]

How is any of this archaic? I don't know how else you would be expected to do that stuff (save for the shop maybe). You have to micro multiple units sometimes, they handle it with good controls, and I fail to see the problem with that. On top of that, if I remember correctly, doesn't LoL not even have shift queueing? Does LoL have any heroes with microing at all? The only one I hear about is Annie with what is pretty much Warlock's ultimate. How does that work with LoL's controls?

I think you can ctrl+click to micro Annie's bear, but it isn't anywhere on the scale of micro you can do in Dota.

[Mister Saturn]

Alt + Mouse clicks to control alternate units. They also have a tendency to drop what they're doing and tether to their owner. There is close to 0 amount of micro in League of Legends for this very reason.

What does that do to the skill ceiling?

[Haly]

What does that do to the skill ceiling?

It lowers it?

[wonderdung]

How is any of this archaic? I don't know how else you would be expected to do that stuff (save for the shop maybe). You have to micro multiple units sometimes, they handle it with good controls, and I fail to see the problem with that. On top of that, if I remember correctly, doesn't LoL not even have shift queueing? Does LoL have any heroes with microing at all? The only one I hear about is Annie with what is pretty much Warlock's ultimate. How does that work with LoL's controls?

LoL controls do handle minions poorly. There's a lot of room for improvement in both games... I feel like DOTA 2 could use a rethink of some stuff that is inherited from WC3. Maybe DOTA 1 fans think that's heresy... I dunno. I just didn't enjoy DOTA 2 very much.

If I put 100+ hours into it I'm sure I'll love it but not everyone is going to give it that chance.

[Aesthet1c]

So much hate and fanboyism in this thread.

Basically this. Both games are different, and different people like them for different reasons.

This thread is about Riot secretly being dicks, but like every other LoL/Dota thread it had to turn into "my game of choice is clearly better than yours!"

[hamchan]

LoL controls do handle minions poorly. There's a lot of room for improvement in both games... I feel like DOTA 2 could use a rethink of some stuff that is inherited from WC3. Maybe DOTA 1 fans think that's heresy... I dunno. I just didn't enjoy DOTA 2 very much. If I put 100+ hours into it I'm sure I'll love it but not everyone is going to give it that chance.

I don't really know how you're supposed to improve stuff like control groups or courier controls though?

[iamblades]

What does that do to the skill ceiling?

I care less about this and more about what it does to the variety of hero abilities.

Dota without heroes like lone druid and lycan and chen and enchantress is a much less interesting game to watch.

[Mister Saturn]

It lowers it?

Was a genuine question, I'm not very familiar with LoL and DOTA2, apart from playing Grog for a minute when LoL was still in beta.