[braves01]

It's always about that to an extent. Argentina weren't interested in the Falklands until Oil was discovered.

South China Sea is the same issue, too.

However, I think China's focus on territorial integrity is not entirely resource-driven. There's a political component to it as well. The CCP controls a vast multi-ethnic, multi-cultural nation that isn't always on the best terms with them. I think they fear not only losing legitimacy if any territory is chipped away, but also that this would encourage dissatisfied groups to seek more autonomy and try to break away as well.

[EVOL 100%]

Please don't put Japan on the same level of crazy as Korea and China. Hell even Korea isn't as crazy and violent as China.

lol. All 3 are crazy in their own ways, don't lie to yourself.

Japan is passive aggressive as fuck. China has the riot thing going on. Korea is in between.

[Solbringer]

That still doesn't change the fact that, as a whole, you'll find nowhere near the same level of nationalistic insanity in Japan as you will in China or even Korea.

At least, on such a large, wide scale.

[John Blade]

One is a non democratic country that does not allow free speech and openly abuses its citizens. One is free and open. Not hard to determine which is the "evil" nation.

Wow....so a democratic country is the good guy while a non democratic country is a bad guy? I think his thinking is 100% foolproof....until you see those democratic country do terrible thing to other country like US or England in the past. Yea, democratic country are the good guy.....till they fuck other people country for they benefit.

[ChiTownBuffalo]

WDF is always going to be fascinating to me.

[maquiladora]

Come 'ere, sonny, let me tell you about the Rape of Nanking, which a great many people in China still remember...

And America killed 100,000+ people in one night in March 45 in the firebombing on Tokyo.

Israel buys submarines from Germany now.

etc.

Atrocities of the past don't dictate policy of the present.

[Zefah]

lol. All 3 are crazy in their own ways, don't lie to yourself.

There is crazy shit in Japan, no doubt.

I'm talking about displays of nationalism or outbursts of violence, looting, and destruction. This kind of thing just doesn't happen in Japan.

It's probably because their education system isn't built around hating their neighbors.

[EVOL 100%]

And America killed 100,000+ people in one night in March 45 in the firebombing on Tokyo. Israel buys submarines from Germany now. etc. Atrocities of the past don't dictate policy of the present.

The problem is that Japan tries to sweep the whole thing under the rug.

There is crazy shit in Japan, no doubt. I'm talking about displays of nationalism or outbursts of violence, looting, and destruction. This kind of thing just doesn't happen in Japan. It's probably because their education system isn't built around hating their neighbors.

Again, passive aggressiveness is their thing.

[ChiTownBuffalo]

And America killed 100,000+ people in one night in March 45 in the firebombing on Tokyo. Israel buys submarines from Germany now. etc. Atrocities of the past don't dictate policy of the present.

In East Asia they do.

It's apples and oranges to compare Germany and Japan after WW2 as far as how they treated or are treated by their neighbors/

[Antiwhippy]

There is crazy shit in Japan, no doubt. I'm talking about displays of nationalism or outbursts of violence, looting, and destruction. This kind of thing just doesn't happen in Japan. It's probably because their education system isn't built around hating their neighbors.

Not that I disagree with you, but what about education policy that denies past crimes which in some ways fuels the other's hate?

[GTP_Daverytimes]

And America killed 100,000+ people in one night in March 45 in the firebombing on Tokyo. Israel buys submarines from Germany now. etc. Atrocities of the past don't dictate policy of the present.

Unfortunately in China it does, the school system actively teaches those things to fan anti-Japanese sentiments. China is probably thinking that one of these days they will get revenge, after all they both have been fighting each other since god knows when.

The problem is that Japan tries to sweep the whole thing under the rug.

Absolutely, they downplay their atrocities which worsens the situation. But unlike China the Japanese are not devoid of information, they can easily access it.

[braves01]

In East Asia they do. It's apples and oranges to compare Germany and Japan after WW2 as far as how they treated or are treated by their neighbors/

I don't think so. I'd say, "Atrocities of the past are used in pursuit of present policy," i.e. if China really wanted a closer relationship with Japan they would have cracked down by now. They want the oil.

[magenta]

If my memory serves me correctly,this seemed to trigger the initial smaller scale riots, one of which got a Chinese sushi restaurant owner's restaurant thrashed even though he had absolutely no Japanese ties outside of the kind of food he prepared. Total egg on the face there. Idiots just lashing out blindly at anything resembling Japan. Now there's been a full on riot going on in China for about a week now. I have a hunch it's being allowed. Japan's general public hasn't rioted or attacked Chinese storefronts or visitors since the escalation although there's always been a historic inbred suspicion and distrust of Chinese nationals there.

This could be true. Here is a pic from the streets of Beijing (Communist Youth League?) from a reporters twitter feed based in Asia. If you are wondering what it means they are apparently guiding, not preventing protestors from the Japanese Embassy.

[Zefah]

Not that I disagree with you, but what about education policy that denies past crimes which in some ways fuels the other's hate?

What does it deny?

The public education simply doesn't teach much of the World War II era at all.

That's a big problem in it's own right, but I think it's preferable to having grade school children draw hateful pictures of a neighboring countries death and destruction. Maybe it's just me, though.

[speculawyer]

And America killed 100,000+ people in one night in March 45 in the firebombing on Tokyo. Israel buys submarines from Germany now. etc. Atrocities of the past don't dictate policy of the present.

It really depends on how the history gets taught and what kind of relations follow the war. The USA has had good relations with both Germany and Japan once getting past the whole WW2 thing. Japan and China . . . not so much.

[ChiTownBuffalo]

I don't think so. I'd say, "Atrocities of the past are used in pursuit of present policy," i.e. if China really wanted a closer relationship with Japan they would have cracked down by now. They want the oil.

Oh, I agree. I'm not on China's side by any means in this matter. I think its resources issue wrapped up in the Chinese flag. Same thing with Dokdo.

I'm more anti-WDF than anything.

[fritolay]

Here's an idea: Let's just blow the island up. Nobody gets it. This is probably the reason I am not involved in diplomacy by the way.

That is the best idea I have read.

[EVOL 100%]

What does it deny? The public education simply doesn't teach much of the World War II era at all. That's a big problem in it's own right, but I think it's preferable to having grade school children draw hateful pictures of a neighboring countries death and destruction. Maybe it's just me, though.

I'm pretty sure that if they stopped downplaying or downright denying the shit they've done to our grandmothers and grandfathers China and Korea would dislike Japan's policies a whole lot less. I know I would.

[Ether_Snake]

This could be true. Here is a pic from the streets of Beijing (Communist Youth League?) from a reporters twitter feed based in Asia. If you are wondering what it means they are apparently guiding, not preventing protestors from the Japanese Embassy.

Which is normal, they know the protests are inevitable, so they "guide" it to make sure it doesn't veer off. Can you imagine what would happen if they prevented them?

[GTP_Daverytimes]

That is the best idea I have read.

Unfortunately no one gives a shit about the rock, whats underneath it is what matter.

I'm pretty sure that if they stopped downplaying or downright deny the shit they've done to our grandmothers and grandfathers China and Korea would dislike Japan's policies a whole lot less. I know I would.

From my knowledge Japan has not downright deny their atrocities, they have however downplayed it a lot. In anycase China would still hate Japan even if they did not downplay their atrocities.

[Vesmir]

You're being ridiculous if you think that. Give me an example of large-scale nationalistic riot in Japan where people started breaking shit and looting. Hell even a small-scale one will do.

30 seconds of googling: http://www.nytimes.com/1990/10/11/wo...ted=all&src=pm
--
This is a lot more complex than "China is being unreasonable" or "Japan should have the islands". Deep geopolitics are at play here, and we are forgetting Korea's place in this feud. I fear for the region; this specific conflict has been brewing for some time.

And it's not just about the islands themselves. That's nonsense.

[Cryptozoologist]

This could be true. Here is a pic from the streets of Beijing (Communist Youth League?) from a reporters twitter feed based in Asia. If you are wondering what it means they are apparently guiding, not preventing protestors from the Japanese Embassy.

Of course it's true. The government is certainly allowing, if not encouraging the protests to wind up nationalism and take people's minds off of other issues, such as the health problems of the soon-to-be leader (who disappeared for like a week). It's also close to China's National Day.

If the government wanted to stop the riots and protests they would have done it within an hour.

Anyway the whole thing is ridiculous and the protesters are hurting Chinese people and Chinese property by destroying Chinese-owned Japanese restaurants and cars. If they really wanted to get at Japan why wouldn't they go there and try destroying some shops and cars?

[Kinyou]

There is crazy shit in Japan, no doubt. I'm talking about displays of nationalism or outbursts of violence, looting, and destruction. This kind of thing just doesn't happen in Japan. It's probably because their education system isn't built around hating their neighbors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyoku_dantai

In June 2000, two members of the society attacked the offices of a magazine which ran a headline which was allegedly disrespectful to Princess Masako.

[Zefah]

I'm pretty sure that if they stopped downplaying or downright deny the shit they've done to our grandmothers and grandfathers China and Korea would dislike Japan's policies a whole lot less.

Possibly? It's not like Japan as a whole is downplaying or denying things. There are a lot of different scholars and officials out there saying different things. It's just that the ones who downplay historical grievances, or even suggest that the accusations about Japan's crimes may not be entirely accurate, get the spotlight and stir shit up among the other nations.

As a government, Japan has made official apologies and reparations to their neighboring nations. They see that, as well as other treaties and agreements with said nations, as an end to the conflict and bad relations.

[EVOL 100%]

From my knowledge Japan has not downright deny their atrocities, they have however downplayed it a lot. In anycase China would still hate Japan even if they did not downplay their atrocities.

The far right does.

Of course, the far-right of any country are bat shit insane, but the problem is that unlike the Neo-Nazis in Germany, you can't comfortably say that they're just a fringe group with no power whatsoever in Japan's case.

Possibly? It's not like Japan as a whole is downplaying or denying things. There are a lot of different scholars and officials out there saying different things. It's just that the ones who downplay historical grievances, or even suggest that the accusations about Japan's crimes may not be entirely accurate, get the spotlight and stir shit up among the other nations. As a government, Japan has made official apologies and reparations to their neighboring nations. They see that, as well as other treaties and agreements with said nations, as an end to the conflict and bad relations.

They still use this flag for their army.

That's pretty fucking insulting.

[MrGame&Watch]

Which is normal, they know the protests are inevitable, so they "guide" it to make sure it doesn't veer off. Can you imagine what would happen if they prevented them?

They are guiding the protests because they want them to happen. If they didn't there would be little to no protests. If China is great at anything, it's preventing large scale demonstrations.

[John Blade]

I don't think so. I'd say, "Atrocities of the past are used in pursuit of present policy," i.e. if China really wanted a closer relationship with Japan they would have cracked down by now. They want the oil.

Maybe from some politician in China, but I don't think the big gun guys are going to back down on this stuff. They might "try" to work together for certain stuff which help both side economy like trade or tourism. But, the big issue of the past Atrocities won't be easy to forget or forgive and this issue will be the major hurtle for both side.
Yes, you can put aside they problem at each other and try to be, "friend" but deep down, the Chinese despise the Japanese and same with the other side. It doesn't help the Japanese didn't really agree for the crime they commit during the WWII in China and try to downplay the incident. Also, it didn't help that both side are still teach to hate each other which won't go away overnight unfortunately.

[Zefah]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyoku_dantai

Yes, I know about the right wing extremist groups. They are an insanely small minority, although very vocal. I've seen their vans drive by with loudspeakers blaring propaganda.

As you can see in your example from 12 years ago, two members of a society attacked someone. Their demonstrations and actions are almost universally non-violent, though.

[diamount]

Of course it's true. The government is certainly allowing, if not encouraging the protests to wind up nationalism and take people's minds off of other issues, such as the health problems of the soon-to-be leader (who disappeared for like a week). It's also close to China's National Day. If the government wanted to stop the riots and protests they would have done it within an hour. Anyway the whole thing is ridiculous and the protesters are hurting Chinese people and Chinese property by destroying Chinese-owned Japanese restaurants and cars. If they really wanted to get at Japan why wouldn't they go there and try destroying some shops and cars?

No, they should invade, pillage and rape the populace instead.

[Vesmir]

Possibly? It's not like Japan as a whole is downplaying or denying things. .

Oh really.

The Japanese army captured Nanjing on Dec. 13, 1937. Over the next six weeks, Japanese soldiers murdered between 200,000 and 300,000, according to various historical accounts. Tokyo's own estimate for the number of civilian deaths in Nanjing is far less precise, ranging from as little as 20,000 to 200,000.

[GTP_Daverytimes]

The far right does. Of course, the far-right of any country are bat shit insane, but the problem is that unlike the Neo-Nazis in Germany, you can't comfortably say that they're just a fringe group with no power whatsoever in Japan's case.

No you are absolutely right, the far right in most countries are nutjobs and Japan is no different. That's why am afraid of the guys who are vying for Power, if one of them manages to push Noda out shit could really break the fan.

[Zefah]

30 seconds of googling: http://www.nytimes.com/1990/10/11/wo...ted=all&src=pm -- This is a lot more complex than "China is being unreasonable" or "Japan should have the islands". Deep geopolitics are at play here, and we are forgetting Korea's place in this feud. I fear for the region; this specific conflict has been brewing for some time. And it's not just about the islands themselves. That's nonsense.

A large scale conflict between organized crime groups and the police constitutes a demonstration of nationalistic violence?

[Zefah]

Oh really.

You know why they estimate that? Because neither party was able to prove who was a citizen and who was a combatant. So, obviously, China says that all of the deaths were civilian, while Japan says the number is much smaller. Neither party are really arguing on the scale of how many people died. The issue comes down to how many were military combatants and how many were innocent civilians.

[entrement]

Nationalism is stupid. We need an alien invasion to wake us up from all this stupid infighting.

[Solbringer]

Nationalism is stupid. We need an alien invasion to wake us up from all this stupid infighting.

Not to derail the thread... If I learned anything from playing through Muv-Luv is that humans will always find things to bicker about even with the impending doom of the human race. An alien invasion would just speed up our destruction.

[speculawyer]

Nationalism is stupid. We need an alien invasion to wake us up from all this stupid infighting.

And it might help the economy too!

[ScientificNinja]

You know why they estimate that? Because neither party was able to prove who was a citizen and who was a combatant. So, obviously, China says that all of the deaths were civilian, while Japan says the number is much smaller. Neither party are really arguing on the scale of how many people died. The issue comes down to how many were military combatants and how many were innocent civilians.

Wow, you're actually going to play this card and put a qualitative value against the lives lost?

My grandmother survived Nanking. When the Japanese came pouring in, her older brother strapped a bag to her back and filled it with as much silverware as he could. He turned her around and said "Run. Don't look back".

And so she ran south. She never saw them again. Her entire family - her brothers, sisters, mother and father were all butchered by the Japanese. The women, they raped. The pregnant women, the Japanese cut them open with their bayonets and pulled out the fetuses to experiment on. The children and babies weren't worth wasting a bullet on - they were simply bludgeoned to death with rifle-butts and boot heels.

The silverware she had in her backpack was intended as a dowry, so that she could marry well. It was the last gift her brother could give her in this worldly existence. She was able to keep it all, thanks to my grandfather. She was able to tell me all of this and more during the 1980s before she succumbed to cancer.

I imagine those of us whose lives were actually touched by the Japanese invasion of Nanking view you outsiders who sit there and argue over semantics in a very similar fashion to how Holocaust deniers are viewed: with amusement and utter contempt.

[Zefah]

They still use this flag for their army. That's pretty fucking insulting.

Incorrect. Although the flags do look pretty damn similar, so I won't fault you for the mistake.



This flag was used by Japanese navy and is now used by the maritime self defense force (note: it's not that entirety of the SDF that uses this).



This is the flag of the imperial Japanese army used since long before World War II.

[Zefah]

Wow, you're actually going to play this card and put a qualitative value against the lives lost? My grandmother survived Nanking. When the Japanese came pouring in, her older brother strapped a bag to her back and filled it with as much silverware as he could. He turned her around and said "Run. Don't look back". And so she ran south. She never saw them again. Her entire family - her brothers, sisters, mother and father were all butchered by the Japanese. The women, they raped. The pregnant women, they cut open with their bayonets to pull out the fetuses and experiment on. The children and babies weren't worth wasting a bullet on - they were simply bludgeoned to death with rifle-butts and boot heels. The silverware she had in her backpack was intended as a dowry, so that she could marry well. It was the last gift her brother could give her in this worldly existence. She was able to keep it all, thanks to my grandfather. She was able to tell me all of this and more during the 1980s before she succumbed to cancer. I imagine those of us whose lives were actually touched by the Japanese invasion of Nanking view you outsiders who sit there and argue over semantics in a very similar fashion to how Holocaust deniers are viewed: with amusement and utter contempt.

I'm not playing any card here. I'm explaining why the estimates are different.

Terrible shit happens in every war by every party involved. All emotions aside, I'm just explaining why one party would estimate a different number of civilian casualties than the other. When you have Japan claiming a tiny number of civilian deaths and China claiming that almost every death was civilian, the actual number is probably somewhere in the middle.

[speculawyer]

I said wow. The banner reads "nuclear extermination of Japanese wild dogs." http://www.businessinsider.com/chine...#ixzz26egcD6CD

It is nice to see the Chinese offer advice to the Japanese on how the Japanese can deal with their feral animal population. But I don't think they'll take that advice since it seems a bit extreme.


What? . . . that is not what they meant?

[ThoseDeafMutes]

That's pretty fucking insulting.

But it's not insulting to remove the sun rays from the flag? It's not like a Nazi flag where they took over and replaced all of Germany's old flags with Swastikas. It's a symbol of Japan, the nation, not Japan-in-WWII. I wonder if Native Americans get offended because the American flag is the same as it was in the 19th Century.

[markot]

The Germany army still uses many symbols that they used in ww2. But thats cause they used them before, they just got rid of the nazi shit >.<

[EVOL 100%]

But it's not insulting to remove the sun rays from the flag? It's not like a Nazi flag where they took over and replaced all of Germany's old flags with Swastikas. It's a symbol of Japan, the nation, not Japan-in-WWII. I wonder if Native Americans get offended because the American flag is the same as it was in the 19th Century.

No, the original without the sunrays isn't insulting.

The variant with the sunrays kinda does represent Imperialistic Japan circa WWII to Asian countries not named Japan, so I don't know what you're talking about.

Moving it to the center by 3 inches doesn't change what it came to represent during and after WWII.

[Wafflecakes]

Are you seriously omitting the series of war crimes that Japan committed to the Chinese? It doesn't take a genius to figure out why there's lingering anti-Japanese sentiment among some Chinese people.

I don't live in the past. I don't believe in inherited guilt. I don't forgive the fools who do believe in them either because it is 100% non productive.

That said. I probably should have changed the term evil. I only used it because thats what the post I quoted was referring to. Doesn't change my sentiment as to which side is the right side.

[Shining Sunshine]

Come 'ere, sonny, let me tell you about the Rape of Nanking, which a great many people in China still remember...

That's like saying everyone in Europe should still hate Germany.

Oh well, it is China. A primitive culture that had technology and wealth forced upon it so that it knows now what to do but go ballistic.

[EVOL 100%]

I went waaayy off topic there, but the point is that it isn't difficult to understand exactly why there's such a strong anti-Japan sentiment in East Asia.

Korea and China aren't exactly being angels, but Japan isn't the last shining beacon of virtue and the last bastion for decency in East Asia either.

That's like saying everyone in Europe should still hate Germany. Oh well, it is China. A primitive culture that had technology and wealth forced upon it so that it knows now what to do but go ballistic.

See, this shit brings my piss to a boil. And I'm not even Chinese.


And with that I'm out.

[Shadow780]

I don't live in the past. I don't believe in inherited guilt. I don't forgive the fools who do believe in them either because it is 100% non productive. That said. I probably should have changed the term evil. I only used it because thats what the post I quoted was referring to. Doesn't change my sentiment as to which side is the right side.

I don't think it's right to downplay or live past historical atrocities one nation committed to another, especially from the victimized nation. That being said, historically there's really no nation better at killing its own population than China.

There's no right side in the realm of politics, Chinese government probably allowed this to leviate some of its internal upbringings. These sort of actions are obviously barbaric, looting and destroying personal properties in the name of nationalism.

[ccbfan]

That's like saying everyone in Europe should still hate Germany. Oh well, it is China. A primitive culture that had technology and wealth forced upon it so that it knows now what to do but go ballistic.

Holy shit how is shit like this not ban worthy.

Fuck I'll probably get banned for backseat modding before him?

[Jintor]

Oh well, it is China. A primitive culture that had technology and wealth forced upon it so that it knows now what to do but go ballistic.

Holy shit.

I mean, I have historical evidence to argue that China was well ahead until around social and technological development stagnated around the 16th century but I don't even really feel I need to argue this because that was just - yeesh.

[genjiZERO]

This is all because China could never properly reign Japan into the whole Tribute system