[FelixOrion]

I don't know if that's the case.. it's one thing to inadvertently offend someone, which hey it happens. No harm no foul. It's another to insult trans people with ignorant comments ie. penis in a dress etc. It's all about being respectful of other people, whether you understand their gender identity or not.

Then don't start the OP with

you may want to familiarize yourself before wading in - it might prevent you from innocently offending someone and should reduce the need for "Trans 101" classes throughout the duration of the thread!

if you want to focus on more bias than just innocent "miswording"

[methane47]

Gender identity is scientific.

Ok So Gender identity defined as "a person's private sense of, and subjective experience of, their own gender. This is generally described as one's private sense of being a man or a woman, consisting primarily of the acceptance of membership into a category of people: male or female"

But the category that the person believes they are in, Is a social Construct. The belief maybe scientific, the category is a social norm.

[Ryuukan]

Why do people even respond to holy wars?

you mean penis in a ban

[FelixOrion]

Why do people even respond to holy wars?

...the punishment due.

[Emitan]

I deserve 100% credit for op, and should be implicitly mentioned. This was my idea, but I don't know anything about the subject. Still.

Blame the aliens :3

[Uncle]

Question: what happens when you're talking on the forum and say "he" but the person is really a transwoman but you had no idea since it's the Internet? It's pretty standard when talking online on a gaming forum (or other male-dominated forums) to go with "he" in conversations unless the user name hints at the person being a woman (girl's name or connotation). It would feel tedious and sound odd to say "he or she" every time when referencing someone, especially if you have to type it a lot.

This is a nice reminder that not having gender specific pronouns in a language kicks ass.

[btkadams]

fantastic OP!

[thatbox]

Congratulations on your promotion to moderator!

I don't wish ill on transgender people but that doesn't mean I acknowledge a penis in a dress as a woman. By all means wear the dress, but don't tell people how they should feel about it.

NEVER

It's fairly obvious what I mean. A guy who wears female clothes. Pre-op transexual. Etc.

I don't mean to be rude, but you are one poster I had in mind when I realized the need for something like this. I'd appreciate it if you read the OP.

This is good info and all, but can people on GAF try not getting so offended when people don't use the "proper terms" for things, especially when it's clear from a person's post that they are in no way trying to be offensive?

Some people just get frustrated having to correct very simple things dozens of times a thread, often from the same posters across topics or even in the same topic. I'm hoping that this post will reduce the occurrences of such distractions, so that other trans threads don't always devolve into the same basic conversations.

Good information, thank you for that. It's nice to actually see the research laid out in a clear manner. I suggest you edit it to remove some of the cattiness and the thought policey tone, but that's just me.

It was my intention to have it desnarked by someone else, but given the other trans thread in the OT today I decided to just put this out now. If you PM me suggestions I'll take them into consideration. I don't want this to be inflammatory.

[Brian Griffin]

This is good info and all, but can people on GAF try not getting so offended when people don't use the "proper terms" for things, especially when it's clear from a person's post that they are in no way trying to be offensive?

This was kind of addressed with Heavy's question and the responses to it. People don't usually get offended on the first use. It's when people continue to use improper terms after they've been corrected that people get upset, and rightfully so.

I think patience has run very thin for incorrect pronoun usage because it comes up in every trans related thread without fail so it feels like people should know by now.

[FelixOrion]

This was kind of addressed with Heavy's question and the responses to it. People don't usually get offended on the first use. It's when people continue to use improper terms after they've been corrected that people get upset, and rightfully so. I think patience has run very thin for incorrect pronoun usage because it comes up in every trans related thread without fail so it feels like people should know by now.

So does someone who normally avoids/doesn't visit said threads but, on a whim, rolls into one and under normally good faith says something that isn't necessarily PC, they just should've know better?

I understand patience running thin but you can't expect everyone to just know every term if they aren't normally engaged in these types of threads.

[SUPREME1]

I'd still like some clarification on the term 'ladyboy' from the other thread.


When can it be used? Under what circumstances? There are obviously times when it's use is acceptable [ie - within Thailand's transgendered prostitution subculture], but is that the only time and place.

I'd also like to know if the term 'boylady' is ever used (and if so, when/how so?). Because if not, I'd like to claim it and start using it.

[Gaborn]

I think this might also help

I think this is a GREAT thread and about time. More education on these issues is always good.

[Emitan]

I'd still like some clarification on the term 'ladyboy' from the other thread. When can it be used? Under what circumstances? There are obviously times when it's use is acceptable [ie - within Thailand's transgendered prostitution subculture], but is that the only time and place. I'd also like to know if the term 'boylady' is ever used (and if so, when/how so?). Because if not, I'd like to claim it and start using it.

Don't use it for people outside of Thailand.

[Exterminieren]

How do you know specifically he was referring to a pre-op transwoman? Maybe he was referring to a cross dressing man? Maybe he was referring to someone who happened to be wearing a dress that day?

You have noticed what thread you're posting in, right?

[JohnDoe]

Very good OP man, I learned a lot reading it. Good job!

[BannedEpisode]

Post: "I, a manly cis man, wouldn't sleep with a trans woman because I'm too straight." Why: First, nobody asked you. Second, you're implying that a trans woman isn't a woman by invoking your sexual orientation to explain your feelings. It's fine not to want to sleep with someone, but please try to remember that this isn't about their gender or your orientation, it's about your expectations of womens' bodies.

Except for that thread that specifically asks this.

[thatbox]

Bless you for making this thread. Might I suggest a portion on slurs and politically incorrect terms? Those things seems kind of common in trans* threads.

Sure. You can PM me with other things you'd like to see covered, or bring them up here or in the trans thread, and we can hash them out.

I nearly spit out my drink when I saw who posted this thread. http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost...&postcount=259 http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost...&postcount=360 http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost...&postcount=365 http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost...&postcount=377 Here's a new Primer: You're not one to talk about how to act in these threads. If Thatbox really is the official arbitrator on this subject then you might as well shut down the discussion completely.

As I mentioned (and Devolution theorized in that previous thread), I simply reached my breaking point. I was banned for those posts, and resolved to address the issues that frustrated me more constructively by putting this together.

[Eschaton]

It was my intention to have it desnarked by someone else, but given the other trans thread in the OT today I decided to just put this out now. If you PM me suggestions I'll take them into consideration. I don't want this to be inflammatory.

It's all fine until the "posts that are bad" section. Some of it is written in a condescending tone (see: 'manly cis man'), and I understand why you might feel that way given that some gaffers do post that way. I recommend you take the content of the responses to those 'bad posts', condense them, and rewrite them as an argument/appeal that addresses the posting environment for trans people on neogaf.

And honestly the bit about "real" men and women... Might be revised a little bit, although im not sure now.

Ill think about it and get back to you when im done with class.

[Arksy]

It was my intention to have it desnarked by someone else, but given the other trans thread in the OT today I decided to just put this out now. If you PM me suggestions I'll take them into consideration. I don't want this to be inflammatory.

Isn't that the definition of baiting/trolling? Shouldn't standards apply to everyone equally? You said you posted the thread with one person in mind wouldn't it be better to have PM'd him?

[Heavy]

I'd still like some clarification on the term 'ladyboy' from the other thread. When can it be used? Under what circumstances? There are obviously times when it's use is acceptable [ie - within Thailand's transgendered prostitution subculture], but is that the only time and place. I'd also like to know if the term 'boylady' is ever used (and if so, when/how so?). Because if not, I'd like to claim it and start using it.

Ladyboy shouldn't be acceptable at all. Isn't it obvious enough? Sounds like something Arnold Schwarzenegger would say when mocking a skinny guy, it's that over-the-top and clearly an insult. I don't see any ambiguity there.

[DUFFMCWALIN]

Good thread OP. I learned a few things here and I think everyone should read something like this. Help them understand better.

[kiunchbb]

What if it's a paragraph(s) and you have to reference the person multiple times. It wouldn't sound or read smoothly saying Squiddy over and over.

I would just use "he" until someone correct me, you will be correct 99% of the time. There are thousands of gaffers, I doubt it is feasible to memorize what pronoun each person want.

[Hop]

Ladyboy shouldn't be acceptable at all. Isn't it obvious enough? Sounds like something Arnold Schwarzenegger would say when mocking a skinny guy, it's that over-the-top and clearly an insult. I don't see any ambiguity there.

For Western cultures, sure. But that's (apparently) the preferred term for Thailand. So this becomes more a matter of cultural sensitivity and recognition, vis a vis transgendered matters, than an issue of transgendered nomenclature per se.



....And I don't think I can sound more pretentious than that last sentence. Go me!

[thatbox]

Isn't that the definition of baiting/trolling? Shouldn't standards apply to everyone equally? You said you posted the thread with one person in mind wouldn't it be better to have PM'd him?

I didn't make the thread specifically for one person. You only have to look at the past few trans threads to see the reason I put this together. It may still be a little rough, but I was getting worked up again trying to get through the current "Would you date?" discussion and it felt healthier to put this out than get caught up in the same old scuffles.

[Forever]

I was banned for those posts, and resolved to address the issues that frustrated me more constructively by putting this together.

Alright then, I didn't know that.

[FelixOrion]

I don't mean to be rude, but you are one poster I had in mind when I realized the need for something like this. I'd appreciate it if you read the OP. Some people just get frustrated having to correct very simple things dozens of times a thread, often from the same posters across topics or even in the same topic. I'm hoping that this post will reduce the occurrences of such distractions, so that other trans threads don't always devolve into the same basic conversations. It was my intention to have it desnarked by someone else, but given the other trans thread in the OT today I decided to just put this out now. If you PM me suggestions I'll take them into consideration. I don't want this to be inflammatory.

I'm with Eschaton on what needs to be changed.

Also, why does someone else have to de-snark it? If you're making a thread saying things that could be offensive and/or inflammatory and talking about how those people should have a little self-censorship and control, then you should observe the same.

[Brian Griffin]

So does someone who normally avoids/doesn't visit said threads but, on a whim, rolls into one and under normally good faith says something that isn't necessarily PC, they just should've know better? I understand patience running thin but you can't expect everyone to just know every term if they aren't normally engaged in these types of threads.

Obviously people who don't know better can't be expected to be correct, but when corrected they should change their future posting habits.

[Cat Party]

Really a great thread.

[FelixOrion]

Obviously people who don't know better can't be expected to be correct, but when corrected they should change their future posting habits.

That's not what you said though (unless I'm mistaken). You were speaking on people (as a whole) not following the correct pronoun usage and having to be re-corrected all the time causing the lack in patience, not just warned individual posters.

[Lancehead]

Good OP, OP. This is sort of the stuff I was talking about in that other thread about judge approving surgery.

[Glorified G]

You seem rather angry about this subject matter.

He does?

[jph139]

The one point I'm confused on is that transgenderism isn't a "mental disorder." I mean, I understand it's not, like, schizophrenia or depression or anything like that - it's like any other orientation or understanding of the body - but what is it? A mental... miswiring? Abnormality? Phenomenon?

At the end of the day, it is a... I don't want to say "problem" or "disorder" or "abnormality" because that implies that it's somehow wrong or broken to be trans, but it is "a thing" that happens in the brain, right?

[FelixOrion]

The one point I'm confused on is that transgenderism isn't a "mental disorder." I mean, I understand it's not, like, schizophrenia or depression or anything like that - it's like any other orientation or understanding of the body - but what is it? A mental... miswiring? Abnormality? Phenomenon? At the end of the day, it is a... I don't want to say "problem" or "disorder" or "abnormality" because that implies that it's somehow wrong or broken to be trans, but it is "a thing" that happens in the brain, right?

Gender identity disorder is a mental disorder in the DSM-IV but is generally not considered metal illness.

[ReBurn]

The one point I'm confused on is that transgenderism isn't a "mental disorder." I mean, I understand it's not, like, schizophrenia or depression or anything like that - it's like any other orientation or understanding of the body - but what is it? A mental... miswiring? Abnormality? Phenomenon? At the end of the day, it is a... I don't want to say "problem" or "disorder" or "abnormality" because that implies that it's somehow wrong or broken to be trans, but it is "a thing" that happens in the brain, right?

I always thought that the issue was more physical. Your body doesn't match your mind, not the other way around.

[Arksy]

The one point I'm confused on is that transgenderism isn't a "mental disorder." I mean, I understand it's not, like, schizophrenia or depression or anything like that - it's like any other orientation or understanding of the body - but what is it? A mental... miswiring? Abnormality? Phenomenon? At the end of the day, it is a... I don't want to say "problem" or "disorder" or "abnormality" because that implies that it's somehow wrong or broken to be trans, but it is "a thing" that happens in the brain, right?

It is defined as a disorder by the DSM-IV which is 'the bible' of classified mental diagnoses. It is however likely to be replaced with a different wording under the DSM-V. Furthermore it isn't referred to as a disorder by a number of authorities. Source. It's more sensitive to use gender dysphoria then GID.

[Seda]

Great OP.

[yeoz]

It is defined as a disorder by the DSM-IV which is 'the bible' of classified mental diagnoses. It is however likely to be replaced with a different wording under the DSM-V. Furthermore it isn't referred to as a disorder by a number of authorities. Source. It's more sensitive to use gender dysphoria then GID.

Right. In the DSM-V proposed revision, it's simply Gender Dysphoria.

Also of interest might be the APA Position statements:

The American Psychiatric Association: 1. Recognizes that appropriately evaluated transgender and gender variant individuals can benefit greatly from medical and surgical gender transition treatments. 2. Advocates for removal of barriers to care and supports both public and private health insurance coverage for gender transition treatment. 3. Opposes categorical exclusions of coverage for such medically necessary treatment when prescribed by a physician. The American Psychiatric Association: 1. Supports laws that protect the civil rights of transgender and gender variant individuals. 2. Urges the repeal of laws and policies that discriminate against transgender and gender variant people. 3. Opposes all public and private discrimination against transgender and gender variant individuals in such areas as health care, employment, housing, public accommodation, education, and licensing. 4. Declares that no burden of proof of such judgment, capacity, or reliability shall be placed upon these individuals greater than that imposed on any other persons.

[yeoz]

oops double.

[Brian Griffin]

The one point I'm confused on is that transgenderism isn't a "mental disorder." I mean, I understand it's not, like, schizophrenia or depression or anything like that - it's like any other orientation or understanding of the body - but what is it? A mental... miswiring? Abnormality? Phenomenon? At the end of the day, it is a... I don't want to say "problem" or "disorder" or "abnormality" because that implies that it's somehow wrong or broken to be trans, but it is "a thing" that happens in the brain, right?

Not really. The brain is fine and as stated in the OP trans people have brains that are more similar to the gender they identify with instead of the normal gender for their body. A trans woman has a woman's brain but was born with a male body so the treatment is to change the body to match the brain.

[Silver_key]

Actually, yeah I have seen a karotype test. Much like I was using PCR machines, performing gel electrophoresis, and doing research with cyclic AMP in high school (Fairfax County's da bomb). So, I guess my only issue would be underestimating how informed the readership is and setting forth truths where there is room for intelligent discussion.

Apart from that, I applaud the research and personally agree with the majority of it.

[Dark Octave]

Post: "I will always see a trans woman as a man." Why: Science and medicine disagree with you, as does common courtesy. You've probably seen at least one trans person and never noticed, naturally reading them as their identified and presented gender. Post: "If the person has a penis, the person is a man. If the person has a vagina, the person is a woman." Why: Science and medicine disagree with you, as does common courtesy. Furthermore, you open yourself up to all sorts of other circumstances, such as men who've lost their penises in accidents or certain intersex people. It's much simpler to take people at their gender expression and/or their word. Post: "But chromosomes." Why: You've never seen a karyotype test in your life, and, just like genitals, you'd never ask someone on the street to show you them. Everyone you meet you judge on easily visible characteristics, and it's absurd to try to go above and beyond your normal effort just to demean trans people. Besides, a not insignificant portion of the population have chromosomal abnormalities, and would be surprised to learn that their chromosomes might not line up with the rest of their lives. Like above, it's much easier simply to trust that people know who they are better than you do.

This is obviously a very debatable topic that shouldn't be force fed down people's throats as right or wrong. Some see it as an opinion while others don't. Let them come to their own conclusion and if that conclusion is presented in a respectful fasion but still offends you, try to understand where they are coming from just like they should be trying to understand you.

[Emitan]

This is obviously a very debatable topic that shouldn't be force fed down people's throats as right or wrong. Some see it as an opinion while others don't. Let them come to their own conclusion and if that conclusion is presented in a respectful fasion but still offends you, try to understand where they are coming from just like they should be trying to understand you.

No. It isn't. Trans men are men. Trans women are women. It is not an opinion. It is established scientific fact.

[LM4sure]

Printing this out for toilet reading. Will leave behind for next toilet user.

[tearsofash]

Nice OP.

Though, you say things like Medicare and Medicaid can help. I am curious about this. I am 26, stuck at a dead end job, barely able to afford rent, and I have no car. I want to get the process started with HRT soon as I can. I'm just kinda stuck.

Also, never tell a transwoman they can go earn money by doing drag shows. Last time someone said that to me i flipped my shit.

[CHEEZMO™]

How do you know specifically he was referring to a pre-op transwoman?

Pre-op transexual. Etc.

[JordanLMiller]

I'm going to have to disagree with everyone chiming in with "great op!" I admit I'm very ignorant when it comes to transgender issues but I want to learn and understand, so I've been wanting a topic like this to pop up here for a while now... but I think it would be nice if everyone involved wouldn't come across as so defensive and snarky when discussing these issues. I mean, I'm sure it gets old replying to people who just don't get it and don't want to get it both online and in real life, but I would enjoy not reading stuff like:

"First, nobody asked you."

"No. It isn't. Trans men are men. Trans women are women. It is not an opinion. It is established scientific fact."

As factual as that may or may not be it just puts me off from reading any further when we can't discuss things in a way that doesn't sound like five year olds arguing on the playground with "Nu-unh dummy! I am right and you are wrong!"

So, uh, in conclusion please be nice. I'd really like to see some great questions and answers here to help me understand.

[Brian Griffin]

This is obviously a very debatable topic that shouldn't be force fed down people's throats as right or wrong. Some see it as an opinion while others don't. Let them come to their own conclusion and if that conclusion is presented in a respectful fasion but still offends you, try to understand where they are coming from just like they should be trying to understand you.

No, it's really not. Not all opinions are created equal. Trans people are who they say and feel they are. To tell them different is offensive and dumb.

Would you tell someone named John that you personally feel their name is Andrew?
Would you tell an Asian person that it's your opinion that they are actually Latino?
Would you tell someone who loves McDonald's that they are really a Wendy's fan?

Sorry if these seem really silly but that's how I feel when people tell trans people they aren't actually the gender they identify with.

[Mileena]

It's fairly obvious what I mean. A guy who wears female clothes. Pre-op transexual. Etc.

Wow, what a dick. Thankfully this scum is banned.

[Darias]

Excellent OP, thank you for writing.

[Arksy]

Nice OP. Though, you say things like Medicare and Medicaid can help. I am curious about this. I am 26, stuck at a dead end job, barely able to afford rent, and I have no car. I want to get the process started with HRT soon as I can. I'm just kinda stuck. Also, never tell a transwoman they can go earn money by doing drag shows. Last time someone said that to me i flipped my shit.

You might be able to get some better help at The Trans-GAF thread.