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Stewox
Banned
(09-19-2012, 04:51 PM)
Finally I finished it ...

There's quite some newsworthy points media didn't report about at all.

All time markers are just moments before the reference, or sometimes a bit more, so it starts at the beginning of a related statement, for easier viewing, as well as understanding.
Also note this was made with 1920x1200 resolution and lines fit, lower resolution may result in word wrapping

Enjoy

Upd: Been fixing some cosmetic stuff in lines and adding some notes, also bethesda featured this thread on id FB fan pages :)

  • MINUTE MARKER | REFERENCE
  • 2:00 | Acknowledging the bad ending in Rage (no big boss or tons of enemies, a standard for adventures )
  • 2:20 | Apology for badly handled Rage PC release (AMD OGL Driver issue)
  • 4:28 | Doom 3 BFG Performance comparrisons PC & Console
  • 7:06 | Doom 3 is more GPU heavy than Rage
  • 10:53 | Doom 3 BFG was not pulled into idTech5 b/c possible unwanted subtle gameplay changes and issues, that could ruin orig. feel of it.
  • 11:50 | Doom 3 BFG has a modernized codebase (read "super-optimized", for today's consoles and PC hardware)
  • 12:00 | Wishes to deploy D3BFG on other platforms such as WiiU, Vita ..etc - Status: TBD due to no time/resources yet.
  • 12:40 | Rage 2 will be designed by fixing broken parts and improving stuff that is great. No major compromise. Rage 2 delayed after Doom4
  • 13:24 | Doom4 silence extended due to "bethesda mode" - Will not start talking about it too early. (probably b/c to avoid not being able to fullfill promises and changes in plans like Rage had, ex.; mod tools, DLC, texture packs)
  • 13:39 | Rage marketing spanned across many years made public think it's openworld. It was never meant to be an RPG experience.
  • 14:13 | Applause - Everybody knows what Doom is.
  • 14:47 | He feels a bit awkward being the company figurehead because he's a technical guy and doesn't work directly with all the details that go into game design that is having more and more role in today's gaming industry.
  • 16:55 | Rage game-world had impressive vistas, but it was a non-interactive shell - Marching orders to fix this for Rage 2
  • 17:19 | QuakeLive in-game marketing failed twice - subscribers helping, but still doesn't fully cover the costs of operating.
  • 17:45 | id Mobile on hold - all developers moved to Doom4 - wishes to get back to mobile in future.
  • 20:23 | Next major code change is Geometry Virtualization - not sure if in time for Doom4.
  • 24:30 | Internal arguments about post effects messing with all the effort that went into aligning all pixels and lighting properly.
  • 25:06 | Need to make games faster, iteration time important, huge undertaking from demo to production, took year.
  • 26:26 | Doom 3 BFG compiles faster, very fast iteration - tools have been taken out to make it even faster.
  • 26:44-26:59 | Carmack's mouth gets confused over similar "doom3 doom4 idtech4 idtech3" words and numbers (funny)
  • 27:04 | Doom 3 problem it was too dark, brightning things up + Carmack's wife always brings up that the flaslight got killed because of him (FPS issues)
  • 28:26 | Doom 3 was hard, BFG sprinkled a bit more weapon ammo around the game
  • 28:50 | Played super mario 3 some years back, much harder difficulty than today's marios.
  • 29:49 | He doesn't think about good old times - focuses on developing for new platforms and new input devices, progress.
  • 30:30 - 41:00 | Carmack still learning - Discusses about id programmers, how to work efficently with code, tricks, solving problems, managing codebase, internal office communication between programmers, game engines are more sophisticated than nasa code but their code is not as perfect.
  • 41:06 | Rage being treated as buggy just b/c drivers really hurt id's feelings. Rage had a very clean and vigorously analyzed codebase.
  • 42:49 | He regrets he can't work on mobile more - one project on hold. Discusses mobile industry quickly
  • 44:26 | Mac remains viable business platform. Discusses about PC platforms.
  • 46:13 | Linux favors that intel integrated GPUs getting better - intel supports opensource efforts, carmack wishes to optimize the opensource OGL drivers but doesn't have time yet.
  • 47:45 | Kudos to Valve for vision with steam.
  • 49:49 | Always mentions about cloud gaming when he sees Gabe. Further discussions about pros cons of cloud gaming vs console HDTV setups (latency stuff)
  • 50:54 | Discussion: Chasing latency, HMD, HDTV, Razer mouse ... etc
  • 54:36 | 48ms comment about VR: Takes less time to send signal overseas than it takes 2 feet in display industry - Applause
  • 56:00 | Rage has "weapon firing" delayed 1 frame after movement b/c enables parallel tasks ...etc (didn't understood that fully, ... yet, basically means that move commands are executed before weapon firing, methods has some benefits)
  • 59:45 | Begins talk about VR; Rift and his own stuff (sublist)
    • Started experimenting after shipping Rage
    • Mentions history, how it was in 90s
    • It wasn't possible back then, companies went bust.
    • VR industry didn't change much for over a decade since he last experienced it.
    • Started exploring why it was so bad - the reasons were huge latency and low FOV.
    • He built his own testbed initially (before knowing oculus' Palmer Luckey)
    • He had his office filled with all kinds of cables, ski-masks, optics, ..etc
    • One of his kits was Sony HMZ with a glued motion sensor.
  • 1:09:24 | VR: Toilet Paper Tubes (funny)
    • Further talk about Sony HMZ, comparing
    • Sony HMZ is not marketed as VR, but as a portable 3D TV without ghosting.
  • 1:12:23 | VR: Motion Sickness in VR - Shows example with how it's like with devkit Rift
    • Sony HMZ has 45 horizontal FOV - Barely acceptable for tests - not practical.
    • He made a toy project for his modded HMZ kit, made sure he got rid of any latency on his parts and link to PC.
    • First time it started getting interesting, but wasn't great.
    • Sony HMZ 48ms latency just because of firmware is a criminal shame.(OLEDs awesome, but not used to full potential)
  • 1:16:47 | Sony people are black holes to each other
    • Carmack is not fond of 3D TV tech, halves FPS, not good for gaming.
    • Talks about Displays / 3DTV / FPS / Ghosting ..etc
    • The good thing of 3D proponents in industry is the push for +120hz refresh rate.
    • PC Monitors with 3D support can be set to 120hz in non-3D mode.
    • VR makes the difference between 60 and 120hz significantly more noticable, to everyone, not just hardcore gamers.
  • Talks about retinal tracking
  • He bought some super rare military-grade 10.000 dollar sensors to compare and test. (stuff that's used for jet fighter helmets)
  • 1:29:44 | Carmack sits down
    • Tried scanning his own eye very carefully setting the laser low, no focal point, he probably shouldn't done it alone
    • Mentions about posting VR updates on MTBS.com forums
    • When he first found out about Oculus, Palmer knew him and sent him a kit immediately, no questions asked.
    • Carmack was very impressed by the 90 FOV of Rift prototype when he first experienced it.
    • Goes on to explain the prototype ...etc
    • Fisheye distortion problem was easily solvable by software, using a shader, math wasn't that hard.
    • Experimented Rift on Rage, took a 16k X 16k chunk of a level for his testing.
    • 16000x16000 chunk is 1GB of uncompressed texture data for Rage
  • 1:47:37 | Would look great if we could ship 1 Terabyte of Rage texture data ...
    • Talks about Doom3 BFG on Rift (software stuff, implementation details, 120hz ..etc)
    • Display responsivness, compares LCDs, OLEDs, CRTs ...
    • Rift VR Demo at QC2012 had 40-50ms latency because they couldn't finish the latest devkit in time(so close)
    • 120hz is acceptable for now but not enough for true immersion.
    • Pre-Oculus Rift: Tried head tracking with Microsoft Kinect, idea got killed very quickly b/c of huge latency
    • Windows Kinect it's a bit faster than on X360, still 70ms latency, useless
    • SixSense was neat but not for VR future
    • 3 Things yet to be done for Rift consumerization, absolute positionsing, latency, display resolutions, all solvable
    • Resolution and Upd.Rate (hz) are just a matter of getting the bored vendors to care about hz in small scale displays
    • Sending emails and kicking companies in the butt, doesn't cost anything, no big changes, possible with existing tech
    • Eventually we want Rift to be wireless in future - need more performance and video bandwidth, user comfort ...etc
    • Also Real-world environimental safety: outside tracking so you don't bump into desk, chair, doors ...etc
    • Trying to push Intel optical research ppl. to solve optical position tracking problem
    • Motion sensor drift correction solutions - compares with super expensive Armadillo sensors, explains
    • Still not ready to commercialize Rift - Egronomic issues, interaction and other small technicals need to be solved
    • 2:13:33 - Rift E3 Demo exploded in interest - exceeding expectations - initially it was planned to do only 100 kits
    • Carmack is worried a bit that it's going too fast, Rift still not ready, they want to make sure it's done right.
    • He said upfront to Palmer that press will report E3 wrongly as John Carmack's VR - and it did.
    • Most of E3 people told Carmack that this was the best thing on E3 ... after coming from all 3 console conferences.
    • Initially Rift was going to be a 500$ devkit but Oculus managed to get it down to 300$ - taking less profit.
    • Finished Rift will cost more than cellphones (smart?) from low-end to high-end.
    • This experimental kit is not for mainstream (kind of stuff they would whine about) but any bleeding edge enthusiast
    • ...-> could contribute without a chip fab in his back yard (mentions QuakeCon case mods crowd - "great example")
    • There are probably 5 companies in China by now that started preparing their own versions of Rift.
  • 2:20:49 | END VR - Twitter Answers Start
  • ///////////////////////////////////////////////
  • 2:21:04 | TW1: VR Anti-Aliasing - Pixels
  • 2:23:55 | TW2: Raytracing
  • 2:27:42 | TW3: OpenGL
  • 2:33:40 | TW4: WebGL (quakelive)
  • 2:42:19 | TW5: CPU Architectures
  • 2:47:19 | TW6: Windows 8 Adoption
  • 2:49:28 | TW7: io devices - Audio processing
  • 2:51:33 | TW8: Force Feedback
  • 2:53:37 | TW9: Display Resolution - Bandwidth
  • 2:57:01 | TW10: Armadillo Aerospace update
  • ///////////////////////////////////////////////
  • ------ | END Twitter Answers - QA Start
  • 3:00:54 | QA1: Network Streaming for Arbitrary Quality Downloads
    • (The asker was disappointed Rage wasn't a "300 gig" download from steam)
    • (Big thing for PCs, 1TB of Rage could be on a server, high-quality textures streamed in real-time exactly at what the player is looking)
    • Carmack already experimented with it, works better than anyone would expect.
    • Technical barriers, needs a lot of servers and bandwidth
    • Planned, will hopefully get supported in future projects (D4)
  • 3:04:40 | QA2: Ultra Low-Latency standard for gaming devices (logo - certification)
    • Carmack kicked companies to support a HDMI "low-latency bit" in the bitstream that would tell the display devices "please do not do any processing that involves buffering"
    • Says that display industry is sluggish, boring when it comes to adoption of improvements
    • Wishes to be like OpenGL where he could make custom extension that would get rid of latency.
    • Hopes this won't take a decade like virtual texturing in GPUs
  • 3:06:32 | QA3: Non-Poligonal Rendering
  • 3:08:47 | Next step for IDTech is developing Geometry Virtualization (yeah, he mentions it twice)
  • 3:09:24 | QA4: Development process methods that ruin culture of videogame companies
  • 3:12:12 | QA5: Cross OS - Virtualization
  • 3:17:48 | QA6: Moving in VR - "Treadmill with handlebars"
  • 3:23:10 | QA7: WiiU GamePad "virtual reality"
    • (asker didn't know that miyamoto was talking about Panorama View, carmack talked about AR, avoided WiiU talk)
  • 3:23:10 | QA8: Post-Processing Effects in VR
    • Carmack: DOF is a bad idea in VR
    • Talks about how a lot of stuff needed to be disabled and weapon position adjusted, split, etc ...
  • 3:26:40 | QA9: Neural Interface Technology
  • 3:28:53 | Fan gives Carmack a T-Shirt
  • 3:29:14 | QA10: Pay-Per-GB Internet hurting Gaming?
  • 3:32:20 | QA11: Photorealistic graphics possible for gaming in 10 years ?

    --END----------------------------------


More techie people can just as well watch it(who didn't already or didn't notice before) , you won't regret it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wt-iVFxgFWk
Last edited by Stewox; 12-27-2012 at 07:46 PM.
Mabase
Junior Member
(09-19-2012, 04:56 PM)
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a little late(I already watched it fully), but appreciated none the less since it gives a good retrospective overview on the talk and the topics discussed. Thumbs up!
Bomber Bob
Member
(09-19-2012, 04:56 PM)
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John needs a personal monthly podcast ASAP
Amagon
Banned
(09-19-2012, 04:57 PM)
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Originally Posted by Bomber Bob

John needs a personal monthly podcast ASAP

I'll pay to listen to this man.
vagabondarts
Member
(09-19-2012, 05:03 PM)
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Thanks for doing this. It's good that it's documented like this so we can break it down for discussion.

John's pushing for oculus rift is really interesting.

Looking forward to seeing what comes of the VR experiments he is doing.

My selfish desire is that I wish he would do some hobby programming and bring classic doom to 3DS eshop (with online multiplayer).
Chavelo
Member
(09-19-2012, 05:05 PM)
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Originally Posted by Bomber Bob

John needs a personal monthly podcast ASAP

The "ON THERE" podcast!
Eideka
Banned
(09-19-2012, 05:10 PM)
Shit, I want to play Rage again now.
Stewox
Banned
(09-19-2012, 05:11 PM)

Originally Posted by Mabase

a little late(I already watched it fully), but appreciated none the less since it gives a good retrospective overview on the talk and the topics discussed. Thumbs up!

Well yeah I know, I did it every day a bit and couldn't every day.

It took a lot of watching, rewinding, seriously.
Last edited by Stewox; 09-19-2012 at 05:31 PM.
iavi
Member
(09-19-2012, 05:14 PM)
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Kudos, op, on the incredibly informative op.

I had no idea a keynote even happened.
animlboogy
Member
(09-19-2012, 05:14 PM)
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I didn't know Rage 2 was a thing, I'm really, really excited about that. I think about the gunplay constantly when I play other games. I'd love to see that concept done right, it was the definitive example of a game on the precipice of greatness but just falling off the cliff.
dragonelite
Member
(09-19-2012, 05:18 PM)
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Originally Posted by Chavelo

The "ON THERE" podcast!

I would kick start it
Nizz
Member
(09-19-2012, 05:18 PM)
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Thank you very much for this. I subscribed to the thread for later viewing. Some of Carmack's tech talk flies over my head but I still find a lot of this stuff interesting. Happy that he wants to fight the good fight against latency.
pakkit
Member
(09-19-2012, 05:22 PM)
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All the Rage 2 news sounds great.
Mabase
Junior Member
(09-19-2012, 05:23 PM)
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Originally Posted by Stewox

Well yeah I know, I did it every day a bit and couldn't every day.

It took a lot of watching, re-winding, seriously.

Don't get me wrong, I didn't want to critizise or anything, since it's a really good reference! And i can see the amount of work you put in. Maybe you should send it to the Quakecon Youtube channel so they can incorprate it into the video's description, they don't seem to have anything similar up there. if it remains only in this thread it could get lost.

...oh and you missed to mark the spot when he sits down :)
Stewox
Banned
(09-19-2012, 05:40 PM)

Originally Posted by Mabase

Don't get me wrong, I didn't want to critizise or anything, since it's a really good reference! And i can see the amount of work you put in. Maybe you should send it to the Quakecon Youtube channel so they can incorprate it into the video's description, they don't seem to have anything similar up there. if it remains only in this thread it could get lost.

...oh and you missed to mark the spot when he sits down :)

Honestly I could do it quite faster, I've actually downloaded the whole file from youtube and put it into a HDD that's hooked up to HDTV, and I think there was a big pause of 2 weeks I forgot because I didn't watch TV ... oh sorry about that sit down, i will fix it ASAP

I may just contact bethesda later to put it on bethblog or something ...
i-Lo
Member
(09-19-2012, 05:52 PM)
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Wow he hammered Sony and MS well. Is there any latency figure for Occulus Rift?
speedpop
Has problems recognising girls
(09-19-2012, 06:10 PM)
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Very helpful thread.
TheSeks
Blinded by the luminous glory that is David Bowie's physical manifestation.
(09-19-2012, 06:51 PM)
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Thanks for this. It's interesting how he's pushing for VR, maybe it could become huge if he can (well, he say it is) the latency/input lag and other issues that VR had in the 90's.
Elsolar
Junior Member
(09-19-2012, 06:56 PM)
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20:23 | Next major pipeline code change is Geometry Virtualization - not sure if in time for Doom4.

Yeah, because virtualized textures worked out sooooo well.
SpudBud
Member
(09-19-2012, 06:59 PM)
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Talk of a Rage 2 makes me happy, as flawed as that game was I really enjoyed it.
teokrazia
Member
(09-19-2012, 07:22 PM)
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Glad Carmack is helping to spread the value of 120Hz.
Stewox
Banned
(09-21-2012, 11:14 AM)

Originally Posted by Elsolar

Yeah, because virtualized textures worked out sooooo well.

That has nothing to do with quality, texture resolution. If you'd read all of the text there, you would have noticed it was severely compressed to fit on 3 DVDs or half bluray.

Also updated time reference when he sits down.
Last edited by Stewox; 09-21-2012 at 11:19 AM.
Zeppelin
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(09-21-2012, 11:22 AM)
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You managed to bold all the uninteresting parts.
Stewox
Banned
(09-21-2012, 11:28 AM)

Originally Posted by Zeppelin

You managed to bold all the uninteresting parts.

I haven't finished that, started with tech, i will do the game stuff too.

And what exactly do you think it's interesting, I cannot know for everyone, so post what you think it's worth it. Everything is worth reading for an enthusiast(watching) , bold is just more newsworthy for sites to publish in general.

Windows 8 is bolded because he adds the same critical opinion as others like valve and blizzard, media didn't notice.
Last edited by Stewox; 09-21-2012 at 11:32 AM.
Zeppelin
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(09-21-2012, 11:29 AM)
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Originally Posted by Stewox

I haven't finished that, started with tech, i will do the game stuff too.

Windows 8 is bolded because he adds the same critical opinion as others like valve and blizzard, media didn't notice.

I was just teasing! Thanks for doing this! Haven't gotten around to watch the keynote yet. This will be very useful.
mclem
Member
(09-21-2012, 12:58 PM)

Originally Posted by Stewox

  • MINUTE MARKER | REFERENCE
  • 3:23:10 | QA8: Post-Processing Effects in VR
    • Carmack: DOF is a bad idea in VR

Assuming the following line isn't directly addressing this (and I don't quite see how it does), I don't really get this. Is it due to some inconsistency between the nature of the blurring between the two cameras? It seems inherently flawed to have apparently-distant objects being seen with perfect clarity when my own *eyes* don't do that!
mrklaw
MrArseFace
(09-21-2012, 01:09 PM)
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Originally Posted by mclem

Assuming the following line isn't directly addressing this (and I don't quite see how it does), I don't really get this. Is it due to some inconsistency between the nature of the blurring between the two cameras? It seems inherently flawed to have apparently-distant objects being seen with perfect clarity when my own *eyes* don't do that!

if you have DoF in VR, then if a distant object is blurred, and you look at it, it'll still be blurred. Thats bad.

You'd need eye tracking to work out where you are looking, and make sure that part is sharp. Best alternative is to have everything sharp, so when you look at it, its correct.
elektrixx
Banned
(09-21-2012, 01:09 PM)
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I really should've paid more attention to John Carmack. He makes intelligent comments all the time.

I only finished Doom a few months ago!
Stewox
Banned
(09-21-2012, 01:11 PM)

Originally Posted by mclem

Assuming the following line isn't directly addressing this (and I don't quite see how it does), I don't really get this. Is it due to some inconsistency between the nature of the blurring between the two cameras? It seems inherently flawed to have apparently-distant objects being seen with perfect clarity when my own *eyes* don't do that!

DOF was never a good idea since it's not realistic, it's a movie style effect used for viewer focus.

Your eyed do DOF automatically, you never see blur because you don't focus on it. But artificial DOF makes you focus on what the author wants not what your eyes are looking at

DOF is probably a lot more distracting in VR, probably looks very unnatural.
JNT
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(09-21-2012, 01:43 PM)
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Originally Posted by Stewox

DOF was never a good idea since it's not realistic, it's a movie style effect used for viewer focus.

Your eyed do DOF automatically, you never see blur because you don't focus on it. But artificial DOF makes you focus on what the author wants not what your eyes are looking at

DOF is probably a lot more distracting in VR, probably looks very unnatural.

Well, that can't be right. Try focusing on something distant and then hold a small object really close to your eyes without focusing on it. Blurry.

DOF still a bad idea though, since the DOF in no way corresponds to your eyes' focal point. It might even trick your brain into thinking your eyes are failing to focus.
Stewox
Banned
(09-21-2012, 01:49 PM)

Originally Posted by JNT

Well, that can't be right. Try focusing on something distant and then hold a small object really close to your eyes without focusing on it. Blurry.

Yes it's blurry, your eye do it, you don't need DOF for that. If you focus on something that's been artificially DOFed then it's blurry, you're focusing on it, it shouldn't be blurry in reality. DOF is not realistic without eye tracking; developers waste performance on a useless effect.

In that case, The only use for DOF is for spectators that do not play the game, they can see where exactly the player is focusing, for example this could be helpful in Starcraft 2, DOF is useless for the player him self, he won't notice artificial DOF anyways because of eyetracking keeps it all focused wherever he looks, just as in reality.

Do not mix the "THINKING FOCUS" that's all something else, your eyes aren't looking at it so it's not the same as focus. The thinking focus is where you just THINK about on the part of vision that's not focused, I can't even explain that, just leave that out of this.

The reason is that you don't have the PC monitor 1 inch from your eyes, it doesn't take all of your eyesight, just 60 degrees in front. So this effect is not as exposed as it is in VR.
Last edited by Stewox; 09-21-2012 at 01:57 PM.
JNT
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(09-21-2012, 02:03 PM)
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Originally Posted by Stewox

Yes it's blurry, your have it, you don't need DOF for that. If you focus on something that's been artificially DOFed then it's blurry, you're focusing on it, it shouldn't be blurry in reality. DOF is not realistic without eye tracking; developers waste performance on a useless effect.

The reason is that you don't have the PC monitor 1 inch from your eyes, it doesn't take all of your eyesight, just 60 degrees in front. So this effect is not as exposed as it is in VR.

DOF in games is not a good idea since the game has no information of where your eyes are actually focusing. That does not mean that you cannot perceive objects outside of your focal point as blurry in real life. DOF is actually an effect to try to mimic the eyes' focal point, but fails for several reasons; one being that the game engine has no clue where the player is focusing, and the other being that the player's focal point actually lies on the screen, not the contents of the screen.
Stewox
Banned
(09-21-2012, 02:05 PM)

Originally Posted by JNT

DOF in games is not a good idea since the game has no information of where your eyes are actually focusing. That does not mean that you cannot perceive objects outside of your focal point as blurry in real life. DOF is actually an effect to try to mimic the eyes' focal point, but fails for several reasons; one being that the game engine has no clue where the player is focusing, and the other being that the player's focal point actually lies on the screen, not the contents of the screen.

Isn't that exactly what I was saying? hehe.

Hm, probably, I'm not an english guy so I think you worded that way better that I did it seems.
JNT
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(09-21-2012, 02:10 PM)
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Originally Posted by Stewox

Isn't that exactly what I was saying? hehe.

Hm, probably, I'm not an english guy so I think you worded that way better that I did it seems.

Yeah, I think we were just misunderstanding each other on there.

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