[RotBot]

And when she tries to poke her head out, she's going to get trolled so hard, and the trolling will be entirely deserved (as long as it doesn't go over the line)

Sadly, you know it's going to go over the line. And then instead of simply having to defend against legitimate criticisms, she'll be dealing with the wave of misogynist trolls who always come out for these things.

[echothreealpha]

I like Geoff Knightley for his 24 hour articles. They're always great.

Yet I agree with the eurogamer artlcle. Even how much I know he does all that stuff to pay ze bills.

I don't think game journalism really pays that much as it is.

[Lime]

For the new page, since it's somehow in the thread title:

[CambriaRising]

Hey, guys. Remember those 3D Doritos? They were pretty good.

They were awesome. Needed more in a package though.

[Cake Boss]

Didn't have a problem with the pic at first until I noticed the Halo 4 ad. Its fine having Doritos and Dew sponsor because the subject and the topic that the journalist is discussing is not about food snacks, its about games and that's where the H4 ad doesn't look good.

[Bedlam]

Conglaturations Lauren Wainwright. And by the way my grandmother had a dress like this.

Please read this comment:

Sadly, you know it's going to go over the line. And then instead of simply having to defend against legitimate criticisms, she'll be dealing with the wave of misogynist trolls who always come out for these things.

[Empty]

stuart campbell just retweeted this

@RevStu http://shooter.incgamers.com/Reviews...f-light-review … now removed review 9.5/10 for lara croft by Lauren http://n4g.com/news/592765/incgamers...f-light-review

https://twitter.com/Valdestine/statu...94985952722944

i wonder how long she was working freelance for square-enix. did it go back to 2010 and beyond?

[pants]

Conglaturations Lauren Wainwright.

[CambriaRising]

stuart campbell just retweeted this @RevStu http://shooter.incgamers.com/Reviews...f-light-review … now removed review 9.5/10 for lara croft by Lauren http://n4g.com/news/592765/incgamers...f-light-review i wonder how long she was working freelance for square-enix. did it go back to 2010 and beyond?

Either way it is pretty strange to remove a review that old if it wasn't suspect.

[SailorDaravon]

Well shit, this situation has changed quite a bit since I first saw this thread go up this morning. Goddamn.

[Penguin]

He also posted a list of people who used the hashtag to win the PS3

http://storify.com/andybeta/gmadefiance

[Lime]

But all this makes me think the Brodeo was right: "Games journalists" should do themselves a favor and just rebrand themselves professional enthusiasts.

I prefer "future community managers".

[RedNumberFive]

I prefer "future community managers".

Perfect!

[PhoReal]

stuart campbell just retweeted this https://twitter.com/Valdestine/statu...94985952722944 i wonder how long she was working freelance for square-enix. did it go back to 2010 and beyond?

This is weird.

[CrunchinJelly]

I prefer "future community managers".

Why hire them in-house when they'll do the job while on somebody else's payroll?

[shagg_187]

stuart campbell just retweeted this https://twitter.com/Valdestine/statu...94985952722944 i wonder how long she was working freelance for square-enix. did it go back to 2010 and beyond?

The fucking drama! :lol

[see5harp]

You lose the high ground when you start commenting on her looks. You also (justifiably) open the door to arguments of misogyny. Stick to the heart of the matter: Her ethics in terms of her writing. But all this makes me think the Brodeo was right: "Games journalists" should do themselves a favor and just rebrand themselves professional enthusiasts.

They were critical of journalism way back when, and never really claimed the journalism title but it's sad that so many ex-1up guys now work in the industry. When is the last time a sports writer got hired to work in the front office of a professional baseball team?

[RobotHaus]

I wonder how well gaming journalism would be fair if everything shifted to anonymity? We wouldn't have to deal with gender, or past history of a singular writer, and at the same time a reviewer would be protected for speaking their honest opinion. I mean sure, it would backfire like everything tends to, but if someone could honestly review and scrutinize a game as much as possible without fear of backlash from a community or company, wouldn't that criticism help the development of both the games and the games industry?

Or do people just like attention too much that they want their name written on every article?

[Jubbly]

While we're on the topic of games journalism, this just popped up on the EuroGamer twitter feed:

"It's a great game. It's a great studio." EA pulls Medal of Honor 10 hour campaign claim from its own website - bit.ly/RXXTqi

https://twitter.com/eurogamer/status...97354979508224

Except... the story is no longer on the site, seemingly pulled without reason.

Edit: It's been reposted: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/20...ve-to-15-hours

[Dakota47]

Anyway this all makes for some delicious reading.

Indeed. This thread is very much interfering with my work.

[MC Safety]

This is turning really creepy now. I hope that you understand why and edit that picture out. If not then you're free to do what you want, I guess.

An uncomfortable journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step down a creepy path.

You could reasonably predict someone would post a picture with some disparaging commentary. At least to the original poster's credit, it was tame disparaging commentary. No one need try to up it.

[Gooster]

I've seen 'journos' circle the wagons, not own up to being called out, refuse to see multiple sides of an issue, and circlejerk one another far too often on Twitter (I am on Twitter too much, in other news) to honestly get riled up about Keighley and Doritos.

On another note, I'm now very curious about UK libel laws. Seems ridiculous.

And yeah, personal attacks on Wainright are not cool despite her behavior otherwise.

[jett]

stuart campbell just retweeted this https://twitter.com/Valdestine/statu...94985952722944 i wonder how long she was working freelance for square-enix. did it go back to 2010 and beyond?

haha oh wow

I love how the situation was exacerbated by Wainwright's own actions.

[More Fun To Compute]

I wonder how well gaming journalism would be fair if everything shifted to anonymity? We wouldn't have to deal with gender, or past history of a singular writer, and at the same time a reviewer would be protected for speaking their honest opinion. I mean sure, it would backfire like everything tends to, but if someone could honestly review and scrutinize a game as much as possible without fear of backlash from a community or company, wouldn't that criticism help the development of both the games and the games industry? Or do people just like attention too much that they want their name written on every article?

Edge have anonymity and part of the last batch of journalist twitter drama was the inside story of some changed edge review scores.

[Seda]

Well, she does look underage as fuck on that video.

That is not Lauren Wainwright of MCV. Just a kid with the same name.

[canedaddy]

Wow... too much.

Thank you, Mr. Florence. Hope you find an outlet for your work that values integrity (and pays well).

[S0N0S]

If I understand this correctly, Eurogamer was not threatened with legal action, rather they were merely asked to remove the "offending" comment? Are we to assume it was done as a favor rather than a response to a legal threat?

That just sounds so much worse than the alternative....

[cameron]

stuart campbell just retweeted this https://twitter.com/Valdestine/statu...94985952722944 i wonder how long she was working freelance for square-enix. did it go back to 2010 and beyond?

How does that work if she has "never reviewed the products"?

[Balotelli]

If only someone would look into the sorry state that the US Games press is also. THe whole buddy buddy thing with journos and devs is disgusting. GiantBomb sickens me all the time because of this.

[jarosh]

He also posted a list of people who used the hashtag to win the PS3 http://storify.com/andybeta/gmadefiance

Pathetic. Look at all the videogame "journalists" on that list...

[mclem]

On another note, I'm now very curious about UK libel laws. Seems ridiculous.

It's not so much the laws - although they're in no way perfect - but the process. It's quite possible to achieve the intended result just by embroiling someone in a lawsuit without necessarily getting the outcome you went in for.


I am starting to wonder if EG made the changes due to the *potential* of a libel lawsuit rather than because anyone actually threatened it directly or otherwise. Not sure how I feel about that. Either way, it's a chilling effect.

[CambriaRising]

Pathetic. Look at all the videogame "journalists" on that list...

That list should go even further and have the site/mag they work for next to the name.

Edit: Hmm, give me a few minutes

[see5harp]

If only someone would look into the sorry state that the US Games press is also. THe whole buddy buddy thing with journos and devs is disgusting. GiantBomb sickens me all the time because of this.

The difference in that case is that Giant Bomb never claimed to be journalists or serious writers. It's a fan site nothing less nothing more. The main draw of the entire website is their podcast and video content.

[Einbroch]

If only someone would look into the sorry state that the US Games press is also. THe whole buddy buddy thing with journos and devs is disgusting. GiantBomb sickens me all the time because of this.

But they don't really hide it, it's like 8-4. They don't hide the fact that they work in some of the games they talk about.

If Lauren just came out and said that she worked for Square-Enix and that while she is a giant TR fan that maybe her words should be taken with a grain of salt no one would care about this whole mess. Well, some would, but those people think the world is perfect.

[Xater]

He also posted a list of people who used the hashtag to win the PS3 http://storify.com/andybeta/gmadefiance

Looks like no one I actually like reading stuff from is on that list. Phew.

[Man Puncher]

If only someone would look into the sorry state that the US Games press is also. THe whole buddy buddy thing with journos and devs is disgusting. GiantBomb sickens me all the time because of this.

There is a fine line between being friendly with people in the biz and being a company mouthpiece in exchange for favours.


And by 'fine line' I mean a big fucking difference.

[Clear]

This is just hilarious to me. This shit has been going on for so long, its not a new phenomenon whatsoever.

The reality is there's no way of stopping it. Games "journalism" (which has always been a stretch, but never mind) is an industry based on opinions not facts. The bar is set really low which is why the incompetents, cynics, and shills are so numerous.

You want to get a more favourable opinion for your product (and lets face it, who wouldn't) you are extra "nice" in some way to the hacks. Is paying them somehow worse than sucking up to them and making them feel "special" so you get a few extra points?

Junkets, goodie-bags, special access visits, etc... is anyone honestly going to say these things are provided to further the cultural "truth", rather than the bleeding obvious which is to shape opinions in a favourable manner?

This happens with every form of media, and because a pissed-off journo is potentially harmful to your profits its always going to happen.

[AlimNassor]

You are missing the point. It isn't that it was misogynistic, it is that this will shift the conversation to talking about misogyny. You know, like what we are talking about right now, instead of staying on point. Just move and and ignore it. Same could be said for the dog pile on the guy, and then same could be said to me.

The problem is the second anyone insults a womans appearance it turns into that sort of argument. Where people are automatically claiming "misogyny, patriarchy". You still are ignoring what I said and automatically assuming we're sexist.

[Larsen B]

The focus has now turned to Lauren Wainwright and her integrity which is a shame as the editorial point about journalists and PRs being too friendly is still a good one to explore.

I wonder how well gaming journalism would be fair if everything shifted to anonymity? We wouldn't have to deal with gender, or past history of a singular writer, and at the same time a reviewer would be protected for speaking their honest opinion. I mean sure, it would backfire like everything tends to, but if someone could honestly review and scrutinize a game as much as possible without fear of backlash from a community or company, wouldn't that criticism help the development of both the games and the games industry? Or do people just like attention too much that they want their name written on every article?

Edge do this and it doesn't make any difference. Even with names on reviews, people's criticisms still revolve around the site they're hosted as opposed to the writer themselves.

[MechaX]

You are missing the point. It isn't that it was misogynistic, it is that this will shift the conversation to talking about misogyny. You know, like what we are talking about right now, instead of staying on point. Just move and and ignore it. Same could be said for the dog pile on the guy, and then same could be said to me.

I definitely agree with this notion. It's not a matter of the comment itself being misogynstic or not, but when considering that this is the first time in a long time where some pretty... looming stuff about gaming journalism is actually getting widely discussed, let's not sidetrack things.

[Corto]

It's not so much the laws - although they're in no way perfect - but the process. It's quite possible to achieve the intended result just by embroiling someone in a lawsuit without necessarily getting the outcome you went in for. I am starting to wonder if EG made the changes due to the *potential* of a libel lawsuit rather than because anyone actually threatened it directly or otherwise. Not sure how I feel about that. Either way, it's a chilling effect.

Rab Florence tweeted that there were threats of legal action, CVM guy tweeted there weren't any from their part. So the threat of legal action was from other involved parties in that article (Geoff, Dave Cook, Doritos, Mountain Dew, Microsoft) or, someone is lying or talking about hearsay. This is a complete mess now.

[DJMicLuv]

Must be that I'm missing something, right?

Plenty, son, plenty.

Best of luck to Rab. Truth will out, it always does in the end.
TEAM!

[Balotelli]

There is a fine line between being friendly with people in the biz and being a company mouthpiece in exchange for favours. And by 'fine line' I mean a big fucking difference.

No, it's still disgusting and horrific. Especially when they go on an dreview games that their friends work on without disclosing (like any Harmonix or Double Fine game).

Also funny how they don't review Dance Central 3 because it's a bad game, but felt fine giving great scores to DC1 and 2. Why? Because their friends work at Harmonix who are currently dieing right now.

[DTKT]

The problem is the second anyone insults a womans appearance it turns into that sort of argument. Where people are automatically claiming "misogyny, patriarchy". You still are ignoring what I said and automatically assuming we're sexist.

But there is no need for the insult in the first place.

[Delusibeta]

So, because people in the past have done it means we should always be careful around women and treat them as people who need to be protected, least we be seen as sexist? People turn to racist/sexist comments when upset and not thinking. Why is it a woman can not be insulted on appearance? Please tell me. Are the people who insulted men's appearances just being silly?

Because then the story can be spun where she plays the victim ("misogynist gamers attack woman again") rather than the villain ("games journalist threatens to sue Eurogamer for opinion piece pointing out that she looks like she is employed by Square Enix, turns out she actually is employed by Square Enix").

[Patryn]

Rab Florence tweeted that there were threats of legal action, CVM guy tweeted there weren't any from their part. So the threat of legal action was from other involved parties in that article (Geoff, Dave Cook, Doritos, Mountain Dew, Microsoft) or, someone is lying or talking about hearsay. This is a complete mess now.

One could also question what exactly a legal threat is. It's possible that MCV didn't directly threaten legal action but implied it.

[Ragingbegal]

They were critical of journalism way back when, and never really claimed the journalism title but it's sad that so many ex-1up guys now work in the industry. When is the last time a sports writer got hired to work in the front office of a professional baseball team?

Longtime Chicago Tribune reporter Sam Smith was hired to write the Chicago Bulls team blog a few years ago. But he was hardly angling for the job. Smith is best known for writing "The Jordan Rules," which is a fairly critical book about the early years of Jordan's career.

[diffusionx]

So is the problem that this Laura Wainwright character is a shill, or that someone called her out for being a shill?

Because it sounds like the latter is a bigger deal than the former in the clubby game journo world. This makes total sense, not to make it political, but you clearly see this same dynamic amongst crooks in government, finance, etc. the problem isn't that guy X is a crook, it's that people calling him a crook are besmirching his good name.

[Patryn]

In discussing 1Up, it also can't be forgotten that it was a sinking ship for about a year, so I think a lot of people were taking their lifeboats when they could.

Doesn't remove the image of impropriety, however.

[Delusibeta]

Rab Florence tweeted that there were threats of legal action, CVM guy tweeted there weren't any from their part. So the threat of legal action was from other involved parties in that article (Geoff, Dave Cook, Doritos, Mountain Dew, Microsoft) or, someone is lying or talking about hearsay. This is a complete mess now.

AFAIK the MCV said they didn't start a lawsuit. I don't think they denied threatening Eurogamer with a lawsuit, however.