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Jburton
Banned
(10-25-2012, 01:19 PM)
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Originally Posted by Corto

If Rab stands by that original article (edit: the part about Laura Wainwright) then he is an idiot.

Don't just spout that and go away, why so?
Interfectum
Member
(10-25-2012, 01:20 PM)
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Originally Posted by Spookie

gonna?

I guess i should have said uglier. everyone loves to hate games journalism and now, with that picture and the threat of lawsuits, there is a shitload of blood in the water. should be fun to watch.
dannyodwyer
Junior Member
(10-25-2012, 01:20 PM)
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In fairness to Eurogamer, they ran the original piece and have only backed down due to the thread of expensive legal action with (I am only assuming) Intent Media. I think this is a sad 24 hours in UK games press, but one I'm glad has happened. A lot of folks over here do not act in the way professionals should, and at the very least this has got us talking about it. It will be interesting to see who makes a move next. If anyone.
D_prOdigy
Member
(10-25-2012, 01:21 PM)
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Originally Posted by Despera

Yeah, seriously. People in here like to jump to conclusions.

I think Eurogamer can still be called out for severe weakness here even though they're not 'the bad guys'. Could you imagine if a publication like the Guardian edited every editorial if the subject merely threatened legal action because they're not happy about being mentioned?
Zeliard
another, slower tempo, made half of dreams
(10-25-2012, 01:21 PM)
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There may be some consolation in the fact that Wainwright will have only brought more heat and attention to herself as a result of this.

The Streisand effect will come in full force.

Originally Posted by Despera

Yeah, seriously. People in here like to jump to conclusions.

Eurogamer also omitted Dave Cook and he apparently did not threaten legal action. They capitulated, and Florence left as a result.
Coxy
Member
(10-25-2012, 01:22 PM)
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Originally Posted by Zia

https://twitter.com/atheistium/statu...33486580264960

no integrity and DOESNT EVEN KNOW WHAT WORDS MEAN, the perfect video game journalist.
Jburton
Banned
(10-25-2012, 01:23 PM)
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Originally Posted by Interfectum

I guess i should have said uglier. everyone loves to hate games journalism and now, with that picture and the threat of lawsuits, there is a shitload of blood in the water. should be fun to watch.

You used that word .... journalism.

It is actually spelt corporate sponsored critique.
Corto
Member
(10-25-2012, 01:24 PM)
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Originally Posted by renitou

How so?

I don't know if he knows Lauren and he has other info that is not included in the original article, but if he had to word it like, paraphrasing: "I'm suspicious, I'm sure it's not true, but the doubt is seeded, but I'm sure is not true" then he should not have included that in the article. As soon as you start naming specific names, there should be no doubt in your mind, or any dubious wording in the article about what you are writing. It's specially stupid when Rab a few paragraphs after the Lauren comment writes this:

. I have a mental list of games journos who are the very worst of the bunch. The ones who are at every PR launch event, the ones who tweet about all the freebies they get. I am fascinated by them. I won't name them here, because it's a horrible thing to do, but I'm sure some of you will know who they are. I'm fascinated by these creatures because they are living one of the most strange existences - they are playing at being a thing that they don't understand. And if they don't understand it, how can they love it? And if they don't love it, why are they playing at being it?
3

He should name the worst of the bunch. If not it's just inconsistent.


Originally Posted by Jburton

Don't just spout that and go away, why so?

I'm at work and on and off from the computer. Sorry.
Mastperf
Member
(10-25-2012, 01:25 PM)
Eurogamer caved but this article's started something these people can't hide from. You can't sue everyone.
Jburton
Banned
(10-25-2012, 01:25 PM)
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Originally Posted by Corto

I don't know if he knows Lauren and he has other info that is not included in the original article, but if he had to word it like, paraphrasing: "I'm suspicious, I'm sure it's not true, but the doubt is seeded, but I'm sure is not true" then he should not have included that in the article. As soon as you start naming specific names, there should be no doubt in your mind, or any dubious wording in the article about what you are writing. It's specially stupid when Rab a few paragraphs after the Lauren comment writes this:



He should name the worst of the bunch. If not it's just inconsistent.

Do you know Lauren?
fizzelopeguss
Member
(10-25-2012, 01:25 PM)
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Their reaction says everything you need to know. Deer in headlamps, caught taking backhanders panic mode.
Xater
Member
(10-25-2012, 01:25 PM)
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Originally Posted by Derrick01

You have to have some nerve to be a douchebag, get called out in public for your douchebaggery, and then instead of doing the right thing continue to be an even bigger douchebag.

This might be the best summarization of this whole thing.

The original article is sound and makes a good point. I also don't see how that was libel. he pointed something out that seems wrong. He even says that he doubts she is in the cahoots with Square-Enix. I doubt that as well, but doing stuff like that as a Journalist is just wrong. Have some standards!

PS: The Streisand effect is also in full effect on Twitter.
mclem
Member
(10-25-2012, 01:25 PM)

Originally Posted by Rez

Rab losing his job over this is insane, and should be a much bigger story than it currently is. Unbelievable.

The phrasing suggests that Rab quit rather than being fired; that said, I fully understand him having that reaction.

That said, I think there's scope here for a nineteenth column - on this story.
Mafro
Member
(10-25-2012, 01:26 PM)
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Mods, change the thread title to "Eurogamer's Lost Credibility".

Originally Posted by mclem

The phrasing suggests that Rab quit rather than being fired; that said, I fully understand him having that reaction.

That said, I think there's scope here for a nineteenth column - on this story.

The way Rab worded it on Twitter made it sound like he decided to quit as a result of his article being edited.
Larsen B
Member
(10-25-2012, 01:27 PM)
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Yeah, Rab walked.

Pretty amusing that one of the best writers about games doesn't call himself a games journalist and has the most ethics of any of them.
Corto
Member
(10-25-2012, 01:27 PM)
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Originally Posted by Jburton

Do you know Lauren?

Oh no. I don't even know who she is, and I'm sure I never read any of her work.
Cartman86
Member
(10-25-2012, 01:27 PM)
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Instead of someone taking from the original article that Wainwright was truthfully compromised (which is not what it said at all) this whole threatening to sue thing is just going to get more people than ever thinking she is in the PR pocket. The opposite of what she intended. For the record I don't think she is. I have no evidence etc, but that isn't really the point. We don't and really can't actually know these people who cover games or other media. This is one of the reasons why journalism ethics exist.
mik83kuu
Banned
(10-25-2012, 01:28 PM)
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Either I am missing something or this dude who wrote the column is a dirty fucking hipocrite. "Boo these other guys for not having any integrity, but don't blame Eurogamer for not having any either. I quit my job with them because they don't have any balls and they edited my column but you should not blame them. It's not their fault." What logic is this?

Must be that I'm missing something, right?
Castor Krieg
Banned
(10-25-2012, 01:28 PM)

Originally Posted by Ikuu

https://twitter.com/atheistium/statu...80209412919296 :lol

"What do you all thing?"

How old is she? 5?
RobotRocker
(10-25-2012, 01:28 PM)
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Under PCC code and libel law, Florence is entirely in the clear on this one. A public quote from twitter is subject to criticism. This even includes the questions of if she is fit to practice or not due to her public quotes. She hasn't got a leg to stand on. If she makes a public statement that is directly quoted. Then she puts it in the public domain and gives the people the right to analyse and criticise her statements. Politician's quotes on twitter are subject to the same and thanks to the Leveson inquiry, so have Journalists (ex-NOTW editor Neil Wallis in particular) and the right to ask is she fit to practice.

It's the threat and high cost of libel lawyers which is making Eurogamer group back down, however. And if you have been a fan of the esteemed organ, Private Eye, over it's lifetime. You know that the threat of a libel suit is used to stifle criticism as the high cost of fighting it is not worth it to a significant amount of publications (Usually accompanied by a letter from everyone's favourite libel solicitors, Carter-Fuck). Which leads to them backing down.I can't imagine Eurogamer group produces the amount of profit needed to fight such a case.

But then ideally Eurogamer should have cited the precedent of Arkell Vs Pressdram, 1971 in response to her because she doesn't have a leg to stand on but money is money.

"Cash Rules Everything Around Me" - Old Staten Island proverb
mclem
Member
(10-25-2012, 01:29 PM)

Originally Posted by Corto

I don't know if he knows Lauren and he has other info that is not included in the original article, but if he had to word it like, paraphrasing: "I'm suspicious, I'm sure it's not true, but the doubt is seeded, but I'm sure is not true" then he should not have included that in the article.

The point is that he's not actually making an accusation directly, he's giving an example of a set of circumstances that - for anyone, not him specifically - would set off alarm bells. And yet circumstances like that are accepted as completely normal; a major part of his point is railing against the fact that we just let that sort of thing slide.
Oxx
Member
(10-25-2012, 01:30 PM)
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She threatened to sue over that?

How pathetic.
Zeliard
another, slower tempo, made half of dreams
(10-25-2012, 01:30 PM)
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I wouldn't be surprised if there was an incoming RPS article on this story, probably written by John Walker. He is pissed, and rightfully so.
Cartman86
Member
(10-25-2012, 01:31 PM)
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Originally Posted by RobotRocker

Under PCC code and libel law, Florence is entirely in the clear on this one. A public quote from twitter is subject to criticism. This even includes the questions of if she is fit to practice or not due to her public quotes. She hasn't got a leg to stand on. If she makes a public statement that is directly quoted. Then she puts it in the public domain and gives the people the right to analyse and criticise her statements. Politician's quotes on twitter are subject to the same and thanks to the Leveson inquiry, so have Journalists (ex-NOTW editor Neil Wallis in particular) and the right to ask is she fit to practice.

It's the threat and high cost of libel lawyers which is making Eurogamer group back down, however. And if you have been a fan of the esteemed organ, Private Eye, over it's lifetime. You know that the threat of a libel suit is used to stifle criticism as the high cost of fighting it is not worth it to a significant amount of publications (Usually accompanied by a letter from everyone's favourite libel solicitors, Carter-Fuck). Which leads to them backing down.I can't imagine Eurogamer group produces the amount of profit needed to fight such a case.

But then ideally Eurogamer should have cited the precedent of Arkell Vs Pressdram, 1971 in response to her because she doesn't have a leg to stand on but money is money.

"Cash Rules Everything Around Me" - Old Staten Island proverb

Yeah sadly this seems to be the case everywhere even when the law is quite clear. Dealing with frivolous lawsuits isn't cheap.
mxgt
Member
(10-25-2012, 01:31 PM)
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threatening to sue over this is so unbelievably childish
Omikaru
Banned
(10-25-2012, 01:32 PM)
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Originally Posted by Mafro

Mods, change the thread title to "Eurogamer's Lost Credibility".

I don't think it's fair to give EG lots of stick for this. I'm sure everyone writing for that publication are appalled at what went down.

But libel cases are so expensive in the UK, and even if they were to win against Wainwright (which is what would likely happen, because her accusation of libel is baseless), she's a game journalist (though I use that term lightly for the likes of her). She has no money. They'd never get their legal fees back or any compensation. So any "win" would be a pyrrhic victory at best.

Sometimes, the threat of libel action alone is enough to get someone to back down, and that fact is something that Lauren Wainwright abused to force them to censor Rab Florence.

It's a complete and utter disgrace. As Florence said, the only "bad guys" here are the people who threatened legal action for obviously not libellous comments.
Sojgat
Member
(10-25-2012, 01:32 PM)
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It amazes me that any of these people are under the mistaken impression games journalism is even a thing. One writes an article pointing out that the industry has become little more more than paid for representives of corporate PR, singles out specific people and is then surprised and saddened when they react badly. No grand statement was made that needed to be said, just one person ridiculing others in service of stating the obvious, as if it were news.
Margalis
Banned
(10-25-2012, 01:32 PM)

Originally Posted by Corto

I don't know if he knows Lauren and he has other info that is not included in the original article, but if he had to word it like, paraphrasing:

This makes no goddamn sense.

The point being made was that once you use your twitter feed as paid marketing, which is basically what tweeting good things about a game in order to win a prize is, any rational human being should question any other tweets you make about games being good.
Jintor
Lit himself on fire to get
a mod to tag him
(10-25-2012, 01:32 PM)
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Just some baseline analysis

One games journalist, Lauren Wainwright, tweeted: "Urm... Trion were giving away PS3s to journalists at the GMAs. Not sure why that's a bad thing?"

Now, a few tweets earlier, she also tweeted this: "Lara header, two TR pix in the gallery and a very subtle TR background. #obsessed @tombraider pic.twitter.com/VOWDSavZ"

Statements of fact. Dig into the twitter records and see if it's true/justifiable. If deleted, check with twitter itself; pretty sure they archive that shit.

And instantly I am suspicious. I am suspicious of this journalist's apparent love for Tomb Raider. I am asking myself whether she's in the pocket of the Tomb Raider PR team. I'm sure she isn't, but the doubt is there. After all, she sees nothing wrong with journalists promoting a game to win a PS3, right?

Statement of opinion. Probably a subject matter of common interest. Based on fair facts, as above. Could hit an honest opinion defence, or maybe even a limited privilege defence, don't know how the specifics work in the UK.

I can't myself see a legit case for Wainswright's lawyers... I wonder if she merely threatened legal action and hoped they didn't call her bluff, or if there's some other stuff we're not seeing.
Xater
Member
(10-25-2012, 01:33 PM)
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Originally Posted by mik83kuu

Either I am missing something or this dude who wrote the column is a dirty fucking hipocrite. "Boo these other guys for not having any integrity, but don't blame Eurogamer for not having any either. I quit my job with them because they don't have any balls and they edited my column but you should not blame them. It's not their fault." What logic is this?

Must be that I'm missing something, right?

You clearly are...
Festwill
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(10-25-2012, 01:34 PM)
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Had never heard of this lauren wainwright character. Overnight internet sensation much? From nobody to poster-child for all that's wrong with games "journalism."
HNNGNGFNGNGNNNGGNGNG
Oxx
Member
(10-25-2012, 01:34 PM)
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Certainly a much bigger story now than a guy posing with some Doritos.
Zulithe
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(10-25-2012, 01:34 PM)
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Good ol' Ben
Bony Manifesto
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(10-25-2012, 01:35 PM)
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I was just looking up some of here work, as I admit I've never heard her name mentioned before now and came across this linked from her website:

http://journalisted.com/lauren-wainwright

Video Games Consultant at Freelance
The Sun - Games Critic at News International
Freelance (IGN, Future Publishing, Uncooked Media, PlayBoy, Square Enix, News International, CBS)

Jintor
Lit himself on fire to get
a mod to tag him
(10-25-2012, 01:35 PM)
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Originally Posted by mik83kuu

Either I am missing something or this dude who wrote the column is a dirty fucking hipocrite. "Boo these other guys for not having any integrity, but don't blame Eurogamer for not having any either. I quit my job with them because they don't have any balls and they edited my column but you should not blame them. It's not their fault." What logic is this?

Must be that I'm missing something, right?

If anything, the fact that he walked gives him solid integrity.
Ikuu
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(10-25-2012, 01:36 PM)
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Originally Posted by Jintor

Just some baseline analysis



Statements of fact. Dig into the twitter records and see if it's true/justifiable. If deleted, check with twitter itself; pretty sure they archive that shit.



Statement of opinion. Probably a subject matter of common interest. Based on fair facts, as above. Could hit an honest opinion defence, or maybe even a limited privilege defence, don't know how the specifics work in the UK.

I can't myself see a legit case for Wainswright's lawyers... I wonder if she merely threatened legal action and hoped they didn't call her bluff, or if there's some other stuff we're not seeing.

She just hid her account, but she did say those tweets and I'm pretty sure she threaten action rather than call anyone in, she had a tweet saying how a Media law course had been useful.
Ath
Member
(10-25-2012, 01:36 PM)
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And now Lauren Wainwright has protected her tweets...
SolidSnakex
Member
(10-25-2012, 01:36 PM)
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Here's another really good article shedding light on all the shady shit that goes on with games journalists

http://botherer.org/2012/10/24/games...of-corruption/
AFollowerNotALeader
Member
(10-25-2012, 01:37 PM)
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Hmm. @atheistium just protected her twitter.

Dammit! beaten!
Last edited by AFollowerNotALeader; 10-25-2012 at 01:38 PM. Reason: Cos I'm super slow like a sloth.
Pendulum
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(10-25-2012, 01:37 PM)
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Wainwright's now gone and protected her tweets.

Edit: Beaten x2
Rez
(10-25-2012, 01:38 PM)
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Scrolling through Lauren's twitter feed was hilarious. Shame.
Empty
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(10-25-2012, 01:38 PM)
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Originally Posted by Bony Manifesto

I was just looking up some of here work, as I admit I've never heard her name mentioned before now and came across this linked from her website:

http://journalisted.com/lauren-wainwright

ahahahaha. the streisand effect here is delicious.

but it still sucks for rab and for eurogamer's credibility and for the terrible precedent it sets for calling out stuff like this, as rab was absolutely correct to do, in the future.
Interfectum
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(10-25-2012, 01:38 PM)
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haha twitter lock down
Jintor
Lit himself on fire to get
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(10-25-2012, 01:39 PM)
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Originally Posted by Ikuu

She just hid her account, but she did say those tweets and I'm pretty sure she threaten action rather than call anyone in, she had a tweet saying how a Media law course had been useful.

Helpful enough to use libel as a stifling motion without any real legal ground to stand on, apparently
Shatner's Bassoon
Member
(10-25-2012, 01:39 PM)
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You need to cut a voucher off of a bottle of Mountain Dew to see her tweets now.
Shurs
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(10-25-2012, 01:39 PM)
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Someone needs to make a new thread about this or a mod needs to change the title of this thread/OP. I'd do it but I'm on my way to work. This Wainwright thing is a much bigger story and needs to be spotlighted.

I'm usually a defender of people in the games press but this is disgusting.

And now Wainwright locks her once public Twitter account? Ha.
Corto
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(10-25-2012, 01:40 PM)
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Originally Posted by Margalis

This makes no goddamn sense.

The point being made was that once you use your twitter feed as paid marketing, which is basically what tweeting good things about a game in order to win a prize is, any rational human being should question any other tweets you make about games being good.

I'm not commenting on that practice that I also feel is abhorrent. I'm not disagreeing with the majority just to be a dissent voice, I am not disagreeing in the first place. I also have doubts about Lauren work, past and future, considering her tweets about the PS3 give away and all that. Rab should have written a bullet proof article if he wanted to write about what he wrote. He didn't. In my opinion. And Eurogamer lost a good writer and some cred, Rab lost a gig, and we lost a his writings.
Last edited by Corto; 10-25-2012 at 01:42 PM.
mik83kuu
Banned
(10-25-2012, 01:40 PM)
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Originally Posted by Xater

You clearly are...

Help me out and tell me what is it?


Originally Posted by Jintor

If anything, the fact that he walked gives him solid integrity.

Yet he says we should evaluate Eurogamer based on what he says and not based on what Eurogamer does. He quit his job because he took an issue with Eurogamer editing his column. He. Quit. His. Job. Because. Of. It. And yet he asks us not to blame Eurogamer. What the hell?
Metalmurphy
Banned
(10-25-2012, 01:40 PM)
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Can anyone post here what the tweets said? They're all protected now.
Interfectum
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(10-25-2012, 01:40 PM)
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Originally Posted by Shatner's Bassoon

You need to cut a voucher off of a bottle of Mountain Dew to see her tweets now.

Or you can get it from a bag of the new Tomb Raider Doritoes flavor HNGGNGNG

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