NeoGAF

Deadly Cyclone · (10-25-2012, 12:59 PM)

To be fair, Gaf does pretty much hate everything. Then again, we have thousands of users so there will always be someone on that side.

Dictator93 · (10-25-2012, 01:00 PM)

This makes me feel terrible. But man, he had huge balls to quit his job. What a fucking awesome dude imo

Jintor · (10-25-2012, 01:00 PM)

Originally Posted by mik83kuu:

But I guess what I mean is that if he takes issue with Eurogamers integrity, why can't we? Him telling us not to do so makes it stupid on an article a out the integrity of others.

I really don't see how it damages his personal integrity to say "I understand why Eurogamer had to do this or risk massive legal action", whether or not he's calling out others in the article or not.

RobotRocker · (10-25-2012, 01:00 PM)

Originally Posted by gofreak:

The original article does cast a question over her character.

Whether casting a question is libel or not, I'm not sure. I think the leading context of the article might be what tips it but I'm not really that au fait with libel/defamation law. The article was a bit leading though. 'I'm not saying she's in their pockets, BUT...'

Eurogamer would have a good "Fair comment" defence going by her tweets. Florence is perfectly right to question her ethics and the questioning of ethics alone is a leader anyway. Plus, she didn't leave an awful lot to the imagination and practically broadcast it in her comments. Florence worked with the evidence he had and gave a fair comment of putting her journalistic ethics in questions and leading into a question of if the industry should have a higher ethical standard.

Originally Posted by Jubbly:

She works for MCV primarily, which is an Intent Media publication. I doubt any organization she's associated with via her freelance role would care enough to assist. If anything, they'd get her off the books and hire one of the thousand other freelancers out there vying for work.

Depends on how much you know the editors and legal teams. It's pretty easy to get someone to do you a solid if you know them well enough. A lot of hacks use their mates in the company legal teams and editorial to give them some back up. But then we might never hear about it since they might have a NDA on it as well where EG says nothing in return for not pressing further.

mik83kuu · (10-25-2012, 01:01 PM)

Originally Posted by Larsen B:

Maybe he doesn't want Eurogamer to be dragged into a legal battle?

Even if there is no case for it, any stress to Tom Bramwell or other Eurogamer staff that may result could be regarded as his fault and he'd rather avoid that.

You're wasting too much time trying to argue a position that doesn't need arguing.

A journalist making an observation based on factual evidence and the getting edited in fear of legal actions is not an issue of journalistic integrity? This thread is not about journalistic integrity?

PaulLFC · (10-25-2012, 01:02 PM)

Michael French ‏@Michael_French
You're a bad guy now if you defend your team. Video games!

The editor of MCV...

jett · (10-25-2012, 01:02 PM)

Originally Posted by Deadly Cyclone:

To be fair, Gaf does pretty much hate everything. Then again, we have thousands of users so there will always be someone on that side.

what is this

Larsen B · (10-25-2012, 01:02 PM)

It's important to note that Rab is not a staff member at Eurogamer but was freelancing and we have no idea if he was being paid for it or not. So whether Eurogamer would do the same it if involved a regular member of staff is unknown.

There is also no reason why Eurogamer can't be criticised for giving into the threat of legal action, even if Rab thinks they shouldn't be blamed for anything.

Jintor · (10-25-2012, 01:02 PM)

Originally Posted by Choc:

I vote euro gamer become a banned site on gaf like game spot was

Christ, Choc, you're a pr flak yourself!

Jburton · (10-25-2012, 01:03 PM)

Originally Posted by specialguy:

of all the problems in the world, this ranks really high on the list.

no wonder the world is in shambles.

Then why come into the thread?

You added nothing to this conversation except your dickish comment.

Games forum has thread about games industry, unenlightened poster wonders why.

Choc · (10-25-2012, 01:03 PM)

Originally Posted by Larsen B:

It's important to note that Rab is not a staff member at Eurogamer but was freelancing and we have no idea if he was being paid for it or not. So whether Eurogamer would do the same it if involved a regular member of staff is unknown.

There is also no reason why Eurogamer can't be criticised for giving into the threat of legal action, even if Rab thinks they shouldn't be blamed for anything.

Exactly. Imagine If eg broke the infinity ward blow up and then got legal action

The way this is they would take the article down. That site is now dead to me

Deadly Cyclone · (10-25-2012, 01:05 PM)

Originally Posted by jett:

what is this

Just a note. Check out most of the threads we have on Gaf, you'll always find someone one one side of the coin or the other.

Not referencing the CVG woman in this statement, more the initial Geoff thing.

daycru · (10-25-2012, 01:05 PM)

I have a feeling EG knew that yanking the content would lead to worse things for her than ignoring the threats. She goes from run of the mill incompetent to full throttle scumbag.

mik83kuu · (10-25-2012, 01:05 PM)

Originally Posted by Jburton:

Then why come into the thread?

You added nothing to this conversation except your dickish comment.

Games forum has thread about games industry, unenlightened poster wonders why.

Didn't you know there is a global list of all the problema in the world and we are only allowed to talk about the one that is ranked highest until it is solved.

CrunchinJelly · (10-25-2012, 01:05 PM)

Originally Posted by Bony Manifesto:

I was just looking up some of here work, as I admit I've never heard her name mentioned before now and came across this linked from her website:

http://journalisted.com/lauren-wainwright

LOL. What a joke.

Empty · 01:07 PM

john walker article on this mess - http://botherer.org/2012/10/25/an-utter-disgrace/

Originally Posted by Pendulum:

Yup, it was most likely Intent/MCV that wrote the email for her. Michael French, the EIC of MCV, was talking about "justice" and how "you're a bad guy now if you defend your team" over on Twitter.

fucking hell

how are they so clueless

if rab had straight out said in his piece she promoted tomb raider and look she did freelance for square and she doesn't get why marketing for a free ps3 is bad ipso facto she's a clear example of corruption then fair enough. but he didn't, he made a more delicate point without accusing her of anything. just arguing that things she said might lead people distrusting her going forwards. there's nothing to defend here except him reproducing things that were publicly written.

Festwill · (10-25-2012, 01:05 PM)

Originally Posted by PaulLFC:

Michael French ‏@Michael_French
You're a bad guy now if you defend your team. Video games!

And conversely. Eurogamer are good guys then.

Originally Posted by daycru:

full throttle scumbag.

Is that libel? I thing that's libel.

Choc · (10-25-2012, 01:05 PM)

Jintor not sure your point. PR in this case done nothing wrong. Journalists just feel into a very grey trap

TheOddOne · (10-25-2012, 01:06 PM)

Originally Posted by Deadly Cyclone:

To be fair, Gaf does pretty much hate everything. Then again, we have thousands of users so there will always be someone on that side.

That is true, however this whole thing has been very questionable.

Rez · (10-25-2012, 01:06 PM)

Originally Posted by Deadly Cyclone:

Just a note. Check out most of the threads we have on Gaf, you'll always find someone one one side of the coin or the other.

You've just described... a forum. I mean, literally, a forum.

herod · (10-25-2012, 01:06 PM)

Originally Posted by Choc:

Euro gamer is to blame because there is no FUCKING reason to edit that article. As her twitter showed it was fucking factual. Usually media outlets defend their journalists and sources to the hilt

Euro gamer chose to not do that and instead of ensuring journalistic and editorial integrity and defence they took the easy way out

The writers of that site now know they have zero protection from their paymasters. Disgraceful

why not contact EG and offer to pay their legal fees? You sound like the hero we all need around here.

8bit · (10-25-2012, 01:07 PM)

That's pure shite fur big Rab, but he'll hopefully find something else. He's a very good writer.

Zaptruder · (10-25-2012, 01:07 PM)

If you want quality journalism free of bias and salesmanship... you're going to have to pay someone... someone that deserves to be paid well because if they're to do a good job, they'll need intelligence and integrity and experience.

Question is... if your advertisers are also the target of your content... and been critical of the content sours the relationship with your advertisers...

Where are you going to get your money from?

Are people willing to pay $30 for a magazine or a month's worth of game-journalism, at the volumes required to make this a worthwhile endeavour?

The simple blunt truth of the matter is that the economics of the industry unfortunately don't really allow for much in the way of integrity.

If you want to know the downlow monkey town, peruse GAF. We're always happy to set a fire under the industry's ass. There's some gold here, if you can wade through all the nuggets of shit that float by.

reptilescorpio · (10-25-2012, 01:07 PM)

Another great John Walker reply

Jintor · (10-25-2012, 01:07 PM)

Originally Posted by Choc:

Jintor not sure your point. PR in this case done nothing wrong. Journalists just feel into a very grey trap

Was just joking about how the whole situation spun out of an article regarding the cozy PR/journo relationship

Jac_Solar · 01:11 PM

Wow -- they are suing Eurogamer for what he said in those quotes? That is very, very sad. On its own the quotes related to the suers didn't mean much, but now they certainly do -- but why did they draw so much attention to themselves? Did they just flip out? Surely the lawyer, or someone else would have mentioned that it's not such a good idea to sue?

Is there a compilation of biased/corrupt "game journalists" anywhere?

Choc · (10-25-2012, 01:07 PM)

Originally Posted by herod:

why not contact EG and offer to pay their legal fees? You sound like the hero we all need around here.

They should have the balls to defend editorial if they want to be a serious media outlet. All media has to deal with this threat

APZonerunner · 01:49 PM

I'm not going to get too deeply involved in this thread as I personally know many of those involved, but...

RE: The Lauren/Tomb Raider thing - that I didn't like. Rab has every right to call people out on the PS3 thing, it was questionable and dodgy. Feel free to get out your pitchforks and hunt to your hearts' content - I would never have entered that competition personally, and that's a personal decision and my personal stance on it. Others differ. Fair enough, each to their own. Also feel free to question Lauren supporting the people and saying she saw no problem. Fine. Whatever. That stuff is morally questionable and Rab/EG had and have every right to call it out.

However - the doubting/questioning Lauren simply because she likes Tomb Raider is really rather distressing. Are journalists not allowed to be excited for games any more? Lauren has been someone who bounced with excitement for Tomb Raider forever. Since before she was in the job professionally, when she was just doing it for fun on her blog and whatever. If all our journalists are meant to not be fans of games or excited for them, it leaves us in a pretty fucking sad place.

The rest of this story can be debated to the ends of the earth as far as I'm concerned, but the simple idea that somebody is in a company's pocket because they excitedly tweet about a game in a natural manner (IE without a shitty promoted hash tag as part of a competition, or in a tweet that reads like an ad) is just insanity. If other reasons arise to suggest they might be - working for them, taking loads of freebies, whatever - then feel free to ask that question. If you want to scrutinize the rest of her work and her past to try to make a deeper connection, then do. If you find something, then it's justified. If somebody puts a video up of themselves singing and dancing around with the game box, again, feel free to ask that question - as that shows questionable judgement as well just looking plain dodgy.

But what kind of world do we live in where somebody can't simply be excited?

Editing and pulling is BS, though. Should've been left as it was.

EDIT: I just want to clarify this post was made before other things later on came to light, as clearly there's a lot more going on here than first imagined.

shagg_187 · (10-25-2012, 01:08 PM)

Originally Posted by Dictator93:

This makes me feel terrible. But man, he had huge balls to quit his job. What a fucking awesome dude imo

I would quit if my job is providing information and I am told to remove information cause someone is butthurt.

Here are her Square Enix related articles.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...ouble-act.html
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...-dogs-lie.html
http://ca.ign.com/articles/2011/11/0...-of-lara-croft
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...evolution.html
http://www.vg247.com/2011/02/07/clou...-dissidia-012/
http://www.vg247.com/2011/02/02/the-...rror-is-dying/
http://www.vg247.com/2011/01/17/inte...oshi-minagawa/
http://www.vg247.com/2011/01/11/inte...akamasa-shiba/

Gaming Journalism: With a Vengeance.

YoYo Switch · (10-25-2012, 01:08 PM)

Only on page 2 of this train wreck but..

I am absolutely disgusted. My college's paper has more fucking integrity than this. Will continue to read and follow closely.

Coxy · (10-25-2012, 01:08 PM)

Originally Posted by Deadly Cyclone:

To be fair, Gaf does pretty much hate everything. Then again, we have thousands of users so there will always be someone on that side.

that crazy gaf, what the hell is wrong with them, why cant they just learn to enjoy corruption strongarmed threats, it they dont like that they cant enjoy anything in life!

Jburton · (10-25-2012, 01:09 PM)

Originally Posted by mik83kuu:

Didn't you know there is a global list of all the problema in the world and we are only allowed to talk about the one that is ranked highest until it is solved.

I must not have received the memo.

Deadly Cyclone · (10-25-2012, 01:09 PM)

Originally Posted by Rez:

You've just described... a forum.

Exactly. It was in reply to the comment about a Polygon dude noting "Gaf hates everything." He isn't necessarily wrong there. Your point was my point, it's a forum.

Anyways, in this whole thing the CVG stuff is questionable, Eurogamer shouldn't have amended, and I think Geoff should at least put something out about the situation, but I don't blame him for much here.

Originally Posted by Coxy:

that crazy gaf, what the hell is wrong with them, why cant they just learn to enjoy corruption strongarmed threats, it they dont like that they cant enjoy anything in life!

Not really where I was going, but sure.

Choc · (10-25-2012, 01:09 PM)

Originally Posted by Dictator93:

This makes me feel terrible. But man, he had huge balls to quit his job. What a fucking awesome dude imo

When shit got grey at game spot tons of em left because they couldn't deal with it. You may see some of that at eg.

Real journalists with integrity don't put up with that shit from corporations

hammster · (10-25-2012, 01:10 PM)

Originally Posted by Choc:

I vote euro gamer become a banned site on gaf like game spot was

I vote MCV & VG247

Originally Posted by Larsen B:

It's important to note that Rab is not a staff member at Eurogamer but was freelancing and we have no idea if he was being paid for it or not.

He was. Check his Twitter.

Margalis · (10-25-2012, 01:11 PM)

Originally Posted by APZonerunner:

However - the doubting/questioning Lauren simply because she likes Tomb Raider is really rather distressing.

You completely missed the point.

Jintor · (10-25-2012, 01:11 PM)

Originally Posted by APZonerunner:

But what kind of world do we live in where somebody can't simply be excited?

That's a fair discussion to have, and one that we likely would be having if Lauren hadn't tried to chilling effect the whole thing.

Festwill · (10-25-2012, 01:11 PM)

Originally Posted by APZonerunner:

However - the doubting/questioning Lauren simply because she likes Tomb Raider is really rather distressing.

Must have missed that part... Where did that happen?

Rez · (10-25-2012, 01:12 PM)

Originally Posted by APZonerunner:

I'm not going to get too deeply involved in this thread as I personally know many of those involved, but...

RE: The Lauren/Tomb Raider thing - that I didn't like. Rab has every right to call people out on the PS3 thing, it was questionable and dodgy. Feel free to get out your pitchforks and hunt to your hearts' content - I would never have entered that competition personally, and that's a personal decision and my personal stance on it. Others differ. Fair enough, each to their own. Also feel free to question Lauren supporting the people and saying she saw no problem. Fine. Whatever. That stuff is morally questionable and Rab/EG had and have every right to call it out.

However - the doubting/questioning Lauren simply because she likes Tomb Raider is really rather distressing. Are journalists not allowed to be excited for games any more? Lauren has been someone who bounced with excitement for Tomb Raider forever. Since before she was in the job professionally, when she was just doing it for fun on her blog and whatever. If all our journalists are meant to not be fans of games or excited for them, it leaves us in a pretty fucking sad place.

The rest of this story can be debated to the ends of the earth as far as I'm concerned, but the simple idea that somebody is in a company's pocket because they excitedly tweet about a game in a natural manner (IE without a shitty promoted hash tag as part of a competition, or in a tweet that reads like an ad) is just insanity. If other reasons arise to suggest they might be - working for them, taking loads of freebies, whatever - then feel free to ask that question. If somebody puts a video up of themselves singing and dancing around with the game box, again, feel free to ask that question - as that shows questionable judgement as well just looking plain dodgy.

But what kind of world do we live in where somebody can't simply be excited?

Respectfully, I think you're too close to this and, as a result, you're missing the point. John Walker has articulated it better than I could:

Originally Posted by John Walker:

He pointed out that when someone vociferously defends a journalist’s right to advertise a game for personal gain, and also has her Twitter homepage emblazoned in images from the forthcoming Tomb Raider game, it could make others ask questions. Never mind that it’s obviously massively stupid and inappropriate for a games journalist to smother an unreleased game all over their personal page – he simply pointed out that in doing so while so enthusiastically arguing that other forms of advertising are fine, people could conflate the two. That would be an entirely reasonable point. You’d think.

Jburton · (10-25-2012, 01:12 PM)

Originally Posted by shagg_187:

I would quit if my job is providing information and I am told to remove information cause someone is butthurt.

Here are her Square Enix related articles.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...ouble-act.html
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...-dogs-lie.html
http://ca.ign.com/articles/2011/11/0...-of-lara-croft
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...evolution.html
http://www.vg247.com/2011/02/07/clou...-dissidia-012/
http://www.vg247.com/2011/02/02/the-...rror-is-dying/
http://www.vg247.com/2011/01/17/inte...oshi-minagawa/
http://www.vg247.com/2011/01/11/inte...akamasa-shiba/

Gaming Journalism: With a Vengeance.

Man that shit is really eye opening, PR in the guise of 'games journalism' has never been so beautifully exposed.

BigDes · (10-25-2012, 01:12 PM)

Originally Posted by Choc:

Euro gamer is to blame because there is no FUCKING reason to edit that article. As her twitter showed it was fucking factual. Usually media outlets defend their journalists and sources to the hilt

Euro gamer chose to not do that and instead of ensuring journalistic and editorial integrity and defence they took the easy way out

The writers of that site now know they have zero protection from their paymasters. Disgraceful

News International could very easily have bankrupted Eurogamer just by dragging out the libel case.

Libel cases in the UK are very serious and can be very expensive and I wouldn't put it past the company to drag out the claim just long enough to sink Eurogamer

herod · (10-25-2012, 01:12 PM)

Originally Posted by Choc:

When shit got grey at game spot tons of em left because they couldn't deal with it. You may see some of that at eg.

no, you won't. you've misunderstood what's happened completely.

Zeliard · (10-25-2012, 01:13 PM)

Originally Posted by Omikaru:

By having his words censored means his position as an opinion columnist is now untenable. I totally get why he left. You can't work for a company that has censored you, when your job is to give your opinion. But that doesn't mean to say he has any animosity towards EG itself; they were put in an impossible position in the face of potentially expensive litigation. If I were the Eurogamer editor, I'd do exactly the same thing, and if I were Rab I'd do what he did too. It's just an unfortunate situation.

The major problem this situation creates comes with how anyone writing for Eurogamer from this moment on is going to feel - that under any threat of libel, Eurogamer will cave and edit their articles.

It's going to create a chilling effect whereby any Eurogamer writer will now self-edit to avoid saying anything that could even remotely be construed as libelous, even when it can clearly be argued not to be.

Empty · (10-25-2012, 01:14 PM)

Originally Posted by APZonerunner:

I'm not going to get too deeply involved in this thread as I personally know many of those involved, but...

RE: The Lauren/Tomb Raider thing - that I didn't like. Rab has every right to call people out on the PS3 thing, it was questionable and dodgy. Feel free to get out your pitchforks and hunt to your hearts' content - I would never have entered that competition personally, and that's a personal decision and my personal stance on it. Others differ. Fair enough, each to their own. Also feel free to question Lauren supporting the people and saying she saw no problem. Fine. Whatever. That stuff is morally questionable and Rab/EG had and have every right to call it out.

However - the doubting/questioning Lauren simply because she likes Tomb Raider is really rather distressing. Are journalists not allowed to be excited for games any more? Lauren has been someone who bounced with excitement for Tomb Raider forever. Since before she was in the job professionally, when she was just doing it for fun on her blog and whatever. If all our journalists are meant to not be fans of games or excited for them, it leaves us in a pretty fucking sad place.

The rest of this story can be debated to the ends of the earth as far as I'm concerned, but the simple idea that somebody is in a company's pocket because they excitedly tweet about a game in a natural manner (IE without a shitty promoted hash tag as part of a competition) is just insanity. If other reasons arise to suggest they might be - working for them, taking loads of freebies, whatever - then feel free to ask that question. If somebody is puts a video up of themselves singing dancing around with the game box, again, feel free to ask that question - as that shows questionable judgement as well looks dodgy.

But what kind of world do we live in where somebody can't simply be excited?

it's not about being excited. you're misrepresenting him.

Quote:

And instantly I am suspicious. I am suspicious of this journalist's apparent love for Tomb Raider. I am asking myself whether she's in the pocket of the Tomb Raider PR team. I'm sure she isn't, but the doubt is there. After all, she sees nothing wrong with journalists promoting a game to win a PS3, right?

it's about how not being ethical with regard to the ps3 stuff makes you suspicious of everything else they do - as being a journalist requires the readers to trust what you are saying is honest opinion.

if she was excited about tomb raider without the ps3 comment or any other impropriety issues it wouldn't be a problem.

CrunchinJelly · (10-25-2012, 01:15 PM)

Originally Posted by shagg_187:

I would quit if my job is providing information and I am told to remove information cause someone is butthurt.

Here are her Square Enix related articles.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...ouble-act.html
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...-dogs-lie.html
http://ca.ign.com/articles/2011/11/0...-of-lara-croft
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...evolution.html
http://www.vg247.com/2011/02/07/clou...-dissidia-012/
http://www.vg247.com/2011/02/02/the-...rror-is-dying/
http://www.vg247.com/2011/01/17/inte...oshi-minagawa/
http://www.vg247.com/2011/01/11/inte...akamasa-shiba/

Gaming Journalism: With a Vengeance.

This + Journalisted bio should be posted in the EG comments.

CrunchyFrog · (10-25-2012, 01:15 PM)

Originally Posted by Ikuu:

That's the original article, pretty sure the bolded was removed.

This is actually a valid and accurate critique of the "game journo" business, and nothing said in here seems even vaguely inflammatory. It's absolutely beyond horrifying that any institution would effectively ban any kind of critical introspection, especially when the facts were all laid out in and available to the public in the first place. Immature buffoonery abounds, truly the antithesis of integrity.

RobotRocker · (10-25-2012, 01:16 PM)

Originally Posted by Jburton:

Man that shit is really eye opening, PR in the guise of 'games journalism' has never been so beautifully exposed.

It's not just games. Read 'Flat Earth News' by Nick Davies. It happens across the entire media industry.

Uthred · 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by reptilescorpio:

Another great John Walker reply

Have to say Mr Walker hits on one of the things I find most bizarre about the entire incident. You're a journalist, your job is to write, why didnt Ms Wainright simply write a response to Mr Florence's article? If she had she could have garnered some respect and at least the appearance of professionalism. As it is she not only makes herself look guilty, she makes herself look like something of an idiot as well

More Fun To Compute · (10-25-2012, 01:16 PM)

She really messed up. The hint of a cover-up makes it seem like she is corrupt to the core and has a lot to hide when before she was just someone who tweeted something silly.

Dictator93 · (10-25-2012, 01:16 PM)

I keep feeling worse and worse about this. Man.

Integrity

Also, this:

Originally Posted by Uthred:

Have to say Mr Walker hits on one of the things I find most bizarre about the entire incident. Your a journalist, your job is to write, why didnt Ms Wainright simply write a response to Mr Florence's article? If she had she could have garnered some respect and at least the appearance of professionalism. As it is she not only makes herself look guilty, she makes herself look like something of an idiot as well