[Durante]

Ouside the ED Ram (which should help alleviate some of the bottlenecks associated with this DDR3 PC-like ram) you can absolutely compare this to PC ram. In the same breath, you'll be able to do the same thing with other 8th gen consoles. (i.e. how do you think Microsoft is putting 8GB into theirs? It certainly won't be via GDDR5)

So the talking point has shifted from "you can't compare console RAM to PC RAM, and are stupid for even trying to do so" to "sure, it's PC RAM, but that's also what the other consoles will use". Correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember you being distinctly in favor of the first option way back when. And ridiculing people who even remotely attempted any comparison to PC memories.

He just said he reposted it for a new page.

Yes, he added that after I pointed it out. I wasn't aware that moving entire posts around is normal behaviour. No need to fly off the handle.

[Perkel]

Is that necessarily relevant, though? 640x480 or better were pretty common when PS1/N64 were doing a quarter of that. 1024x768 was pretty common by the time consoles got around to doing 480p regularly. 1280x1024 was no big thing years before the 2005-2006 consoles hit.

By standard i mean that it is not some high resolution. Most of people play above 1080p now.

[Erethian]

I will, I'm planning on running WiiU/PS4/PC next gen. Best of all worlds. Multiplats on PC, PS and WiiU for exclusives. It would take a miracle* for me to get another Microsoft console in the future. *read Microsoft actually rethinking their monetization schemes to benefit customers.... lol

Yep. Wouldn't be surprised to see a lot more people going this way next gen.

I mean you never have to worry about a console manufacturer setting the hardware specs of your system, that's entirely down to you and how much money you're willing to spend.

[Talwind]

I think you guys overreacting without looking at the full picture. I reading B3D thread and they're speculating about how the eDRAM could come into play. All I see here is just people just condemning the system, cant we be a bit more civil?

Guess not lol

[Durante]

By standard i mean that it is not some high resolution. Most of people play above 1080p now.

Joshua has a point though. PC games were being run above 720p while consoles were rendering at 640x480. Just because 1080p is standard now on PC it won't necessarily be standard on next-gen consoles.

[TheD]

A decent competent developer directly comments on the RAM latency and bottlenecks of the previous consoles and much better the WiiU is in that department and GAF, well GAF, is just ... what can you say that hasn't already been said. One person excepted a ban bet, which by all accounts should already be in effect.

Hard numbers are hard numbers, get over it!

[Margalis]

Yes, he added that after I pointed it out. I wasn't aware that moving entire posts around is normal behaviour. No need to fly off the handle.

Weren't you just the guy threatening to call a mod over this? It kind of seems like you are the one who could stand to chill out a little.

[FGMPR]

So uh.. what is the deal with console RAM and off the shelf PC RAM?. Was the general GAF consensus that they are similar enough to be compared or not?

[Oblivion]

They only work on Nintendo systems. Of course it wont be a problem for them, their games are entirely designed around it. The question is for ports and next gen titles, if it will be enough. Designing around one hardwares memory setup isn't attractive.

To be honest, I don't see why people would want next gen ports on the Wii-U if they would become heavily compromised. I mean, purely on an academic (may not be the right word here) basis I can sorta understand if you wanna see how much crap from UE4 you can cram inside the Wii-U before it reaches the breaking point. But beyond that, I don't see much other reason to support such things.

[Refreshment.01]

it's kind of sad that the thread is teetering on inanity now. oh well, there is always b3d. The 'slowness' can be offset somewhat by the eDRAM, however that is not a simple thing for port teams.

Absolutely, not easy for port teams as we have already hear from some devs. However, WiiU kind of have already covered the important ports this year. So know multiplat development has into consideration the console in earlier stages of development, so things can improve now. That is, of course, until heavy development begins for Sony and MS next gen consoles.

I was going to post something similar to this. Why does everyone need to justify their purchases?

And it is almost always the usual suspects that always get deployed like a SWAT team to these threads. They absolutely dissolve any meaningful disscusion going on, burying it in meaningless tangential banter.

[MadeInBeats]

Hard numbers are hard numbers, get over it!

What's your IQ?

[Erethian]

They only work on Nintendo systems. Of course it wont be a problem for them, their games are entirely designed around it. The question is for ports and next gen titles, if it will be enough. Designing around one hardwares memory setup isn't attractive.

Just to reiterate what I mentioned earlier, Frozenbyte seemed to have no problem with it at all.

I suspect it will vary a lot amongst developers.

[shinra-bansho]

They might have a $449 SKU, but if we're going to talk about the $349 price of the WiiU, it doesn't make sense to compare a Deluxe version to a Basic version.

Microsoft launched a $299/$399 console 7 years ago that plays Batman Arkham City and Mass Effect 3 and other games that Wii U owners will get to enjoy.

I don't anticipate them launching a system at a $449 entry point in a years time. I don't anticipate either Durangorbis system will be north of $400.

[Durante]

So uh.. what is the deal with console RAM and off the shelf PC RAM?. Was the general GAF consensus that they are similar enough to be compared or not?

The deal is, and has been for a while now, that it's incredibly unlikely these days for someone to make a special type of memory for a major memory pool in a console. So it will always be "off-the shelf" memory of some kind, the most interesting issue is whether it's off-the-shelf memory intended for CPUs (as it is here), intended for GPUs or a mixture of both.

[fabricated backlash]

Absolutely, not easy for port teams as we have already hear from some devs. However, WiiU kind of have already covered the important ports this year. So know multiplat development has into consideration the console in earlier stages of development, so things can improve now. That is, of course, until heavy development begins for Sony and MS next gen consoles. And it is almost always the usual suspects that always get deployed like a SWAT team to these threads. They absolutely dissolve any meaningful disscusion going on, burying it in meaningless tangential banter.

It's like a CS clan war. Allways the same people as Terrorist and CTs.

[Alextended]

This new information does relate to the Shin'en interview anyway. For example when first reading that you could have assumed they imply the RAM itself has really low latency and is fast. But clearly that's proven wrong now. So I was essentially asking if their interview still made sense in light of this new information (again, with the rest of the known info about the chip designs and what not where applicable). Telling me Shin'en has such and such ties to Nintendo or that the interview was a general feel good piece doesn't respond to anything. Which you don't have to respond to but yeah, don't project your own feelings on the reasons others post. You aren't any less vague when you talk about the possible effects this has on development, while ignoring all other aspects.

[TheD]

What's your IQ?

Clearly higher than yours!

Hard facts are to be trusted over weak statements!
People like you make me sick!

[NBtoaster]

Just to reiterate what I mentioned earlier, Frozenbyte seemed to have no problem with it at all. I suspect it will vary a lot amongst developers.

Of course, every game and engine has different demands.

To be honest, I don't see why people would want next gen ports on the Wii-U if they would become heavily compromised. I mean, purely on an academic (may not be the right word here) basis I can sorta understand if you wanna see how much crap from UE4 you can cram inside the Wii-U before it reaches the breaking point. But beyond that, I don't see much other reason to support such things.

People still played PS2 and Wii ports of next gen games for a while. And I doubt WiiU will get as many cutbacks as they got.

[FGMPR]

The deal is, and has been for a while now, that it's incredibly unlikely these days for someone to make a special type of memory for a major memory pool in a console. So it will always be "off-the shelf" memory of some kind, the most interesting issue is whether it's off-the-shelf memory intended for CPUs (as it is here), intended for GPUs or a mixture of both.

I see. Thanks.

[azizhud]

Wow this thread turned ugly pretty quickly.

[Erethian]

Of course, every game and engine has different demands.

Yeah, though it was also interesting that they said the additional content they're releasing for the Wii U version of Trine 2, like the Goblin Menace stuff, would require then to do some downscaling to get working on the 360/PS3.

Now of course they could just be talking that up because they're releasing for launch, but it's an interesting bit of information nonetheless.

[verbum]

If the rumors of the 360 and PS3 successors are true, the WiiU will be in worse shape than the Wii was in comparison to current consoles.

Sometimes less is more. Content is king. Nintendo HAS to be pulling in indie developers and giving them an easy time selling games over the next 5 years. They can't really compete on the media sales, so things such as a "Minecraft II" and "Mechwarriors U" would push consoles in between their big releases.

[Stewox]

Maybe there's quad-channel

that's just the speed of a single chip

and latency is more important, pc gpus waste their power into heat due to overheads

the implementation in wiiu is far superior, doesn't matter if x360 cpu is faster in a certain calculation, it won't be use for devs if the system has many other bottlenecks, same goes for ram, imagine 360 as a overclocked benzin train with quick glue and ps3 as a rusty diesel cargo train with analog switches and gages, while WiiU zips by as an electric TGV.

[wsippel]

Maybe there's quad-channel that's just the speed of a single chip and latency is more important, pc gpus waste their power into heat on overheads

No, that's for four parallel chips. Single chip would be 4GB/s.

[chaosblade]

This is a pretty curious decision, from a company that seemed to like focusing on minimizing bottlenecks in their consoles. No doubt this is going to be a huge one in the long run.

Honestly pretty surprised to see this. Figured they would have at least had GDDR3. Even split RAM with the dedicated OS RAM using the slower pool would have made more sense.

[Twilight Princess]

There's no edram?

[Zarx]

Don't forget this interview of Shin'en (GAF thread here) who praise the memory layout of the Wii U, so no, the DDR3 isn't a problem, you have to take into consideration all the rest.

I guess it's pretty telling in retrospect that they praise every aspect of the memory architecture except for bandwidth.

[gundamkyoukai]

The deal is, and has been for a while now, that it's incredibly unlikely these days for someone to make a special type of memory for a major memory pool in a console. So it will always be "off-the shelf" memory of some kind, the most interesting issue is whether it's off-the-shelf memory intended for CPUs (as it is here), intended for GPUs or a mixture of both.

I think most people were expecting Wii U to uses the GPU ram ( GDDR5 ) but it end up using the slower ram .
So when people saying MS and Sony won't be using PC ram the talking about them using GDDR5 which only use for GPUs .
Which is also off the shelf any way , as for MS and Sony i expect it to be a mixture of both .
Who knows maybe even DDR4 or slower ram with stacking .

[Perkel]

Joshua has a point though. PC games were being run above 720p while consoles were rendering at 640x480. Just because 1080p is standard now on PC it won't necessarily be standard on next-gen consoles.

So custom res like GT5 had ? 1280/1080 ? What you said is true but consoles are not custom build anymore in most cases like Ps2 was. I'm 99% sure they will have GFX cards from ATI and Nvidia and we know more or less what are thew capable of.

Any single core medium spec card from above 2007 is capable of running games with 1080p resolution.

Recent cards added eyefinity and 3D as standards.

[Durante]

There's no edram?

There absolutely is, and more of it (and apparently more flexible) than on 360.

So custom res like GT5 had ? 1280/1080 ? What you said is true but consoles are not custom build anymore in most cases like Ps2 was. I'm 99% sure they will have GFX cards from ATI and Nvidia and we know more or less what are thew capable of. Any single core medium spec card from above 2007 is capable of running games with 1080p resolution.

But that is for games with assets/effects designed for PS360 level systems (though significantly upgraded for the better ports).

[Margalis]

This new information does relate to the Shin'en interview anyway. For example when first reading that you could have assumed they imply the RAM itself has really low latency and is fast.

That's actually not what it implied at all.

The performance problem of hardware nowadays is not clock speed but ram latency. Fortunately Nintendo took great efforts to ensure developers can really work around that typical bottleneck on Wii U. They put a lot of thought on how CPU, GPU, caches and memory controllers work together to amplify your code speed. ... As said before, today’s hardware has bottlenecks with memory throughput when you don’t care about your coding style and data layout. This is true for any hardware and can’t be only cured by throwing more megahertz and cores on it. Fortunately Nintendo made very wise choices for cache layout, ram latency and ram size to work against these pitfalls.

What this is saying is basically that, in their view, memory bandwidth is not a big deal compared to stuff like latency and cache. Whether or not that is a good analysis who knows, but it's not at odds with this info.

Edit: If anything it's very much in line with this info.

[MadeInBeats]

Clearly higher than yours! Hard facts are to be trusted over weak statements! People like you make me sick!

Tell you what makes me sick, cowards who edit their post when they know they said something that was going to get them banned.

But that isn't you, so no worries there.

I have to apologise though, I had no idea you were a console hardware engineer and software coder.

[Tricky I Shadow]

Not surprising, but still....yikes. It's gonna be left for dead when the 720/PS4 arrive.

[LeleSocho]

please give me the exact quote where nintendo promised that.. aside of generic this is a console for everyone remark. Also if its the wii of the next generation it will mean that it will be the market leader as well, which is a good thing for nintendo

should i remind you what everyone does mean? also now i'm to lazy but you surely can find reggie's quote on how powerful the console is

let alone the fact that i was talking about that is the wii of its gen hardware wise and not market wise but then if they provide me games and software that i like in general why the hell should i care about how it will sell? if they don't do well and die will be sad and all but there are plenty more fish in the sea.

[BibiMaghoo]

Clearly higher than yours! Hard facts are to be trusted over weak statements! People like you make me sick!

Dafuq.

I don't think he was calling you stupid, simply that hard fact numbers do not always ring true, as is the case for a persons 'IQ'

Iq relates your mental age to chronological. There is no difference between how a 30 year old thinks to a 40 year old. I took his post to be pointing out the irrelevance of certain numbers...

But maybe that's just me..

[Thraktor]

A little disappointed, as I'd been predicting a 128-bit bus, but given the eDRAM will be the target of most high-bandwidth operations, it's not as big a deal as many people seem to assume. In fact, the latency is arguably the more important statistic, which is incidentally much lower with DDR3 than the GDDR5 some people think Nintendo should have used.

[TheD]

Tell you what makes me sick, cowards who edit their post when they know they said something that was going to get them banned. But that isn't you, so no worries there. I have to apologise though, I had no idea you were a console hardware engineer and software coder.

Well, I would edit my post implying someone was dumb if I was you. (BTW, Durante is a coder and I would also edit my post calling for his ban if I were you).

Dafuq. I don't think he was calling you stupid, simply that hard fact numbers do not always ring true, as is the case for a persons 'IQ' Iq relates your mental age to chronological. There is no difference between how a 30 year old thinks to a 40 year old. I took his post to be pointing out the irrelevance of certain numbers... But maybe that's just me..

That is like saying that because someone said I was smart it overrides an IQ test and my IQ could be said to be anything!

It does not matter what someone subjectively thinks, we have objective facts.

RAM bandwidth is objectively important, if the CPU or GPU needs data from main RAM but if it does not have enough bandwidth to get them the data in time they will stall.

[Twilight Princess]

There absolutely is, and more of it (and apparently more flexible) than on 360.

Well, then the slightly slower main ram isn't that much of a problem, is it?
The op is making it out to be significantly inferior to 360 ram.

[IdeaMan]

That's actually not what it implied at all. What this is saying is basically that, in their view, memory bandwidth is not a big deal compared to stuff like latency and cache. Whether or not that is a good analysis who knows, but it's not at odds with this info. Edit: If anything it's very much in line with this info.

Yep that's correct

[Plinko]

Not surprising, but still....yikes. It's gonna be left for dead when the 720/PS4 arrive.

Depends on how much is reserved for the OS in the newer consoles. Regardless, there will be a gap but it still shouldn't be as large as the one between Wii and the 360/PS3.

[Oblivion]

Just curious, are the 360 and PS3 capable of doing direct X10? Or just DX9?

[Reiko]

Just curious, are the 360 and PS3 capable of doing direct X10? Or just DX9?

360 DX9 with some quirks

PS3 DX9 variant.

[Ydahs]

Just curious, are the 360 and PS3 capable of doing direct X10? Or just DX9?

The Xbox 360 uses a modified DirectX 9 API while the PS3 has its own graphics API. DirectX 10 is not compatible with the 360.

The WiiU is rumoured to have DirectX 10.1 compatible GPU, putting it far ahead of the PS360 in that regard.

[Perkel]

But that is for games with assets/effects designed for PS360 level systems (though significantly upgraded for the better ports).

Sure but new cards are 2-3 times better than 2008 ones.

as of those ps360level

People are playing right now with Enb mods with medium spec rigs with texture packs and those games are safe to play with 1080p. If anything i expect first true next gen games to look at minimum like that.

[MadeInBeats]

Dafuq. I don't think he was calling you stupid, simply that hard fact numbers do not always ring true, as is the case for a persons 'IQ' Iq relates your mental age to chronological. There is no difference between how a 30 year old thinks to a 40 year old. I took his post to be pointing out the irrelevance of certain numbers... But maybe that's just me..

Which one makes my IQ look more impressive? Yeah, that one. Haha, I just made myself laugh

*serious face*

That doesn't happen often.

[BibiMaghoo]

That is like saying that because someone said I was smart it overrides an IQ test and my IQ could be said to be anything! It does not matter what someone subjectively thinks, we have objective facts.

I don't think you understand what I said.

Your IQ as a number is completely irrelevant once you reach adult hood. The number assigned means fuck all. It is only relevant as a child, because a 10 year old with the thought process of a 20 year old is impressive. A 40 year old thinking like a 50 year old is not.

It would be an objective fact that iq is high or low based on testing. But that is not a measure of your intelligence beyond childhood.

In this case, I took the comment to be the same. The numbers we have for the RAM are low, but that doesn't mean the console is under powered as a whole.

Them again, he may have just been calling you stupid, but that was not how it appeared to me, or likely anyone else that understands how iq tests work.

[Cosmozone]

And here's why Nintendo never releases specs anymore.

[Dictator93]

The EDRAM is exciting (froma developing satndpoint). I wonder how many devs will have native 720p deferred engines with this thing. It should be quite interesting.

[Erethian]

Depends on how much is reserved for the OS in the newer consoles. Regardless, there will be a gap but it still shouldn't be as large as the one between Wii and the 360/PS3.

Considering how service heavy the consoles are getting I could see one of the two doing something similar with their memory structure. Assuming they don't go with split pools.

[Stewox]

I think most people were expecting Wii U to uses the GPU ram ( GDDR5 ) but it end up using the slower ram . So when people saying MS and Sony won't be using PC ram the talking about them using GDDR5 which only use for GPUs . Which is also off the shelf any way , as for MS and Sony i expect it to be a mixture of both . Who knows maybe even DDR4 or slower ram with stacking .

Most people associate clock/bandwidth with the word "slower", "faster"

More bandwidth alone wouldn't have made much difference, so nintendo wisely didn't waste money on that.

Latency is the name of the game.