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Dash27
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(12-02-2012, 04:05 PM)
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Paleo thread here: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=506828

Hello GaF. Really just reposting something I just put up on the Men's Health Fitness forums. I've been reading a lot on nutrition over the years and it's a pretty tough subject to get a grasp on. A lot of conflicting information, studies showing one thing or another, different interpretations of the results. Not to mention all the bad information out there from pseudo science and supplement marketing.

If anyone has any questions on the premise of the title feel free to ask here or PM me and I'll try and answer as best I can.

Anyway here's the post:

Posting this here because MH was the place I first started really looking into nutrition. I remember the threads talking about counting calories and WANE GAIN MAINTAIN calculations. BMR rates and Harris Benedict formula. I've used all of those and even had success doing so.

Now I'm starting to read more about calories not mattering much.

I'm reading Gary Taubes' book Why we get fat and what to do about it. Pretty compelling stuff. Here he is in an interview:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l59YyXpCT1M

The bullet points:

- We dont get fat because we eat more. We eat more because we get fat.

- Calories in and out is largely irrelevant. * Watch http://vimeo.com/channels/418298/54861706 first 5 minutes to see what this means. Not that calories in - out = change is wrong, it's just not answering why we get fat in a useful manner.

- Insulin secretion makes us fat. Carbs make us secrete insulin.

- Remove carbs (sugars, grains etc) from your diet and replace it with fat.

* The problem with calories in calories out as a knee jerk reaction to weight is that it fails to explain why we get fat, and why some people can stay thin. We need to understand what our body does to process the calories. Do they store it or burn it and under what conditions.


Good 3 minute summary of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNYlIcXynwE

FAT HEAD documentary, good watch:

http://www.hulu.com/watch/196879

***EDIT***

FAQ:

If I ate a million calories of lean protein or whatever you want me to eat, wouldn't I'd get fat? So it does matter!

The argument is calories restriction may work, but not well. The weight is often regained quickly, difficult to maintain the restriction, other methods work better.

What about cultures that eat a lot of carbs? Like Asian cultures who eat a lot of rice?

28:15 into the video I posted he addresses this:

http://youtu.be/l59YyXpCT1M?t=28m15s

Basically he says the low sugar intake is the big distinguisher.

Aren't the studies on this incomplete, too short, and generally not 100% conclusive?

Around 39:15 into the video he talks about the need for more study. The whole point is to address what we do know and how it applies to what we eat:

http://youtu.be/l59YyXpCT1M?t=39m15s

How can you say no exercise and eating too much wont make you fat? If I ate too much... actually check that, I DO eat too much and dont exercise, I am indeed fat. OR I exercise and watch my portion size, which includes grains, and I have a six pack.

The point of the discussion is that our relatively recent issue with obesity is not about eating more and exercising less. In fact studies have shown those variables are less a factor than you'd imagine. We (generically) are getting fatter, in the US and elsewhere. Not by a little, and not over a long period of time. It's not that we are suddenly doing less, exercising less, or eating more calories. It's that what we are eating is making us fatter.

OP do you buy into this stuff?

I personally go to the gym 3-4 times a week. I have counted calories in the past on multiple occasions and it has gotten me leaner. Up til recently if anyone asked I'd tell them to take their BMR, use the Harris Benedict formula to determine maintenance calories and then shoot for 500 below that to lose weight. I've also gotten leaner the summer before last by just trying to eat "better foods". That included grains like Oatmeal and whole wheat bread, but I think the real catalyst was things like grilled chicken, avocados and broccoli.

I think resistance training undeniably makes me stronger. I think the gym is great for fitness and health. I think sugar is really rediculously ubiquitous in our society and it's making us fatter. I think grains are... unknown at this point. I'm inclined to believe I'm better off without them for a variety of reasons. I think you can be very lean and still eat grains, but it's probably not ideal.

Right now I'm still packing on the weight I put on doing Starting Strength programming. Gained 30 pounds, hopefully a lot of it is muscle, but undeniably a good amount of fat. I'm going to try to go with a low carb approach and see what happens.

So, what do I eat? Can you give me some examples of recipes with no grains or sugars?

I intend to try the Paleo approach, and also Primal which are very similar. Both are low carb, Primal allows some dairy and Paleo usually doesnt. I try not to get too caught up in smaller details. Paleo recipes:

http://punchfork.com/paleo

http://fastpaleo.com/category/all-recipes/

Primal:

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/prima...#axzz2E0Rfca7E


I personally go by the "everything in moderation" approach. That said, if you eat fresh whole, unprocessed foods you're doing fine. Meaning, does your chicken dinner look like this:



and turn into this?



Or does it look more like these from a box:



Last edited by Dash27; 01-05-2013 at 03:46 AM.
Wafflecakes
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(12-02-2012, 04:06 PM)
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Yeah this guy is amazing.

Everyone should watch his film Fat Head as well :)

Gives the important points without the time sink of the book.
Eggman
Banned
(12-02-2012, 04:07 PM)
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But how did we eat more to get fat in the first place? Hmmm?

Originally Posted by Wafflecakes


Everyone should watch his film Fat Head as well :)

That film was great.
Wafflecakes
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(12-02-2012, 04:08 PM)
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Originally Posted by Eggman

But how did we eat more to get fat in the first place? Hmmm?

Changes in WHAT we eat. Increased sugar/grain/carbs/starches/etc.



(I see you were not being serious lol)
Forever
Banned
(12-02-2012, 04:08 PM)
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Isn't this just the Atkin's diet?
Wafflecakes
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(12-02-2012, 04:09 PM)
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Originally Posted by Forever

Isn't this just the Atkin's diet?

It has a lot in common with Atkins yes. Same (correct) premise.
Slo
Call 911!
(12-02-2012, 04:09 PM)
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This is basically the theory behind the paleo diet, is it not?
Xeke
Banned
(12-02-2012, 04:10 PM)
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Originally Posted by Wafflecakes

It has a lot in common with Atkins yes. Same (correct) premise.

But I eat all those things and I'm not fat...hmmmm
Wafflecakes
Member
(12-02-2012, 04:11 PM)
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Originally Posted by Slo

This is basically the theory behind the paleo diet, is it not?

Paleo/Atkins/General low carb

All have the same premise even if they get the job done in different ways.

Originally Posted by Xeke

But I eat all those things and I'm not fat...hmmmm

Not relevant. I don't wear sunscreen and don't have skin cancer......

We are talking in the macro sense. Some people can eat anything and not get fat.
Emily Chu
Banned
(12-02-2012, 04:11 PM)
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I'm Asian....

Were fucked

Rice and or noodles eveeery fuxking day

But I've been eating nothing but salads lately
pompidu
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(12-02-2012, 04:12 PM)
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Originally Posted by Dash27

Hello GaF. Really just reposting something I just put up on the Men's Health Fitness forums. I've been reading a lot on nutrition over the years and it's a pretty tough subject to get a grasp on. A lot of conflicting information, studies showing one thing or another, different interpretations of the results. Not to mention all the bad information out there from pseudo science and supplement marketing.

If anyone has any questions on the premise of the title feel free to ask here or PM me and I'll try and answer as best I can.

Anyway here's the post:

Posting this here because MH was the place I first started really looking into nutrition. I remember the threads talking about counting calories and WANE GAIN MAINTAIN calculations. BMR rates and Harris Benedict formula. I've used all of those and even had success doing so.

Now I'm starting to read more about calories not mattering much.

I'm reading Gary Taubes' book Why we get fat and what to do about it. Pretty compelling stuff. Here he is in an interview:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l59YyXpCT1M

The bullet points:

- We dont get fat because we eat more. We eat more because we get fat.

- Calories in and out is largely irrelevant.

- Insulin secretion makes us fat. Carbs make us secrete insulin.

- Remove carbs (sugars, grains etc) from your diet and replace it with fat.

I haven't watched the video but what I bolded is most certainly not true. But I'll see what kind of evidence he gives to support that claim.
NintendoGal
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(12-02-2012, 04:12 PM)
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Actually I thought this was more in line with ketosis? Maybe mistaken though.
freenudemacusers
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(12-02-2012, 04:12 PM)
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Bread makes you fat
The Big Rig
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(12-02-2012, 04:13 PM)
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I can't argue with this, after losing around 70 pounds this year. Low carb has been good to me.
Wafflecakes
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(12-02-2012, 04:13 PM)
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Originally Posted by Emily Chu

I'm Asian....

Were fucked

Rice and or noodles eveeery fuxking day

TBH quantity still matters. Doesn't matter if all you eat is plain table sugar.....if you keep your intake low you still won't gain weight.
IceCold
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(12-02-2012, 04:14 PM)
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Eating a lot by itself won't make you fat. You could be an active person after all. The problem is if you are a sloth and eat a lot, and in today's sedentary lifestyle this is pretty common. Also a lot of people also eat crappy foods filled with refined sugars and other bad stuff.
Last edited by IceCold; 12-02-2012 at 08:33 PM.
renitou
Member
(12-02-2012, 04:14 PM)

Originally Posted by macuser1of5

Bread makes you fat

Bread makes you fat?
Wafflecakes
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(12-02-2012, 04:14 PM)
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Originally Posted by pompidu

I haven't watched the video but what I bolded is most certainly not true. But I'll see what kind of evidence he gives to support that claim.

People like to use BIG statements. For sure calories in =/= calories out.....at the end of the day though. if you are eating 1k more calories than your BMR you will gain weight.

The idea that calories are not absolute comes more into play when you are talking about 200 calorie gaps.
Dice
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(12-02-2012, 04:14 PM)
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I don't do this and I'm not fat and I'm not constantly fighting cravings.
Coldsnap
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(12-02-2012, 04:15 PM)
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Gary Taubes is super sharp. I hope one day all this becomes common knowledge to people. It sorta baffles me that an OT like this exists because I consider it to be such basic knowledge. Being able to control your insulin is awesome. I eat garbage food post workout, usually take in 400g-500g of carbs stuff like cupcakes, cookies, pancakes, burgers, ect (all home made minimally processed) and still maintain a low body fat % because I have healthy insulin levels and peak it on purpose to spark muscle growth.
Emily Chu
Banned
(12-02-2012, 04:15 PM)
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Originally Posted by Wafflecakes

TBH quantity still matters. Doesn't matter if all you eat is plain table sugar.....if you keep your intake low you still won't gain weight.

Yeah but basically its the war on carbs
Goodbye potato beads rice noodles and grains : [
Wafflecakes
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(12-02-2012, 04:15 PM)
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Originally Posted by Dice

I don't do this and I'm not fat and I'm not constantly fighting cravings.

Not more of these replies -.-
Neffarias_Bredd
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(12-02-2012, 04:16 PM)
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Originally Posted by macuser1of5

Bread makes you fat

obligatory http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue_KpuWiIO4
Dash27
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(12-02-2012, 04:16 PM)
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Originally Posted by Slo

This is basically the theory behind the paleo diet, is it not?

Pretty much but Taubes supports his case based on the science end of it and rarely goes into hunter gatherer societies. At least that Ive noticed. He simply shows the science, studies and experiments all point to the same thing: carbs are responsible for causing us to produce insulin which then makes us retain fat.

You can starve yourself and lose weight, but it's a) not sustainable, and b) not particularly healthy. Generally speaking.
MatthewB92
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(12-02-2012, 04:16 PM)
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Originally Posted by macuser1of5

Bread makes you fat

Skilotonn
xbot xbot xbot xbot xbot
(12-02-2012, 04:17 PM)
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Everything makes sense at a first glance aside from the "calories in and out is largely irrelevant" part.

I stay slim and fit because of the rest of the points.
Neuromancer
The Mayuh of f'n Bawston
(12-02-2012, 04:18 PM)
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I starting keeping track of my calories in and out this year and I've lost 40 lbs. I don't see how it can possibly be irrelevant.
Seguin
Banned
(12-02-2012, 04:19 PM)

Originally Posted by Neuromancer

I starting keeping track of my calories in and out this year and I've lost 40 lbs. I don't see how it can possibly be irrelevant.

So have you changed the foods you eat or just smaller portions of your previous staples?
pompidu
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(12-02-2012, 04:19 PM)
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Originally Posted by Wafflecakes

People like to use BIG statements. For sure calories in =/= calories out.....at the end of the day though. if you are eating 1k more calories than your BMR you will gain weight.

The idea that calories are not absolute comes more into play when you are talking about 200 calorie gaps.

And if you burn 1k more calories than you ate you will lose weight. Saying calories are irrelevant to weight loss is false. But 200 calories wont make much of a difference.
Wafflecakes
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(12-02-2012, 04:20 PM)
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Originally Posted by Neuromancer

I starting keeping track of my calories in and out this year and I've lost 40 lbs. I don't see how it can possibly be irrelevant.

Yeah its not irrelevant.

Its just overemphasized.

(low carbers TREAT it as irrelevant because supposedly if you cut your carb intake your body will tell you how much to eat and you won't need to count carbs....reduced cravings and all that jazz)
Dash27
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(12-02-2012, 04:21 PM)
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Originally Posted by Dice

I don't do this and I'm not fat and I'm not constantly fighting cravings.

He covers this as well in the book. I can get a better answer for you with the book in front of me but suffice to say there are certain factors that mitigate this. Cells get more and more resistant to insulin as we grow older is one example, hormone levels is another.
Bomber Bob
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(12-02-2012, 04:21 PM)
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Originally Posted by Emily Chu

I'm Asian....

Were fucked

Rice and or noodles eveeery fuxking day

But I've been eating nothing but salads lately

Asians don't get fat tho, nor they age until menopause
Verbal Intercourse
Banned
(12-02-2012, 04:21 PM)
How can calories in vs. out be irrelevant?

Is it not more a matter of low carb diets being higher in fat and protein, which in turn are more filling and less likely to lead to overeating than a carbohydrate centered diet?
entrement
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(12-02-2012, 04:22 PM)
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Originally Posted by Emily Chu

I'm Asian....

Were fucked

Rice and or noodles eveeery fuxking day

But I've been eating nothing but salads lately

It's not that simple. Even Taubes mentions.

The issue is insulin resistance. Asian cultures do eat a lot of rice, but they don't develop insulin resistance as much as Western populations because traditionally there is little refined sugar in their diet. Fruit is probably the only source; I'm not taking about modern Asian diets, as they are getting bigger as well as they adopt Western eating preferences.

Westerners developed insulin resistance at a much higher rate because sugar is in virtually everything, even ''healthy'' foods such as granola, yogurt, etc.

Originally Posted by Verbal Intercourse

How can calories in vs. out be irrelevant?

Is it not more a matter of low carb diets being higher in fat and protein, which in turn are more filling and less likely to lead to overeating than a carbohydrate centered diet?

It matters, but humans aren't bomb calorimeters. There are hormonal issues at play and Taubes delves into this. This person ate more calories and improved body composition, along with exercise, she removed refined grains and sugars.

Last edited by entrement; 12-02-2012 at 04:26 PM.
Anno
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(12-02-2012, 04:23 PM)
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Been on a sub-70 daily card diet for about two weeks now and I feel great. Not really doing it to lose weight as much as to improve my health and just feel better. It also basically forces me to quit drinking, which has been nice for my wallet as well.
Dash27
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(12-02-2012, 04:23 PM)
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Originally Posted by Neuromancer

I starting keeping track of my calories in and out this year and I've lost 40 lbs. I don't see how it can possibly be irrelevant.

That has worked for me in the past as well. Tracking calories is always the first thing I suggest to people, and I still would. Writing down what you eat makes you eat better, in my experience. Makes you more accountable.

Generally speaking, if you are bothering to track calories, you're interested in fat loss probably. If that is so you're more likely to make better food choices.
PhoenixDark
(12-02-2012, 04:23 PM)
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What about oatmeal? Just curious; I tend to eat boneless chicken breasts and tilapia fish, with a veggie, but I wonder if I can add oatmeal to my breakfast regimen?

My metabolism is awesome so I don't really gain weight, but then again I also have done a lot of cardio over the years.
Wafflecakes
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(12-02-2012, 04:24 PM)
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Originally Posted by PhoenixDark

What about oatmeal? Just curious; I tend to eat boneless chicken breasts and tilapia fish, with a veggie, but I wonder if I can add oatmeal to my breakfast regimen?

My metabolism is awesome so I don't really gain weight, but then again I also have done a lot of cardio over the years.

If one was doing any sort of Low Carb program it is unlikely oatmeal would be a part of it.
OpinionatedCyborg
Thread Clinging Troll
(12-02-2012, 04:25 PM)
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Originally Posted by PhoenixDark

What about oatmeal? Just curious; I tend to eat boneless chicken breasts and tilapia fish, with a veggie, but I wonder if I can add oatmeal to my breakfast regimen?

My metabolism is awesome so I don't really gain weight, but then again I also have done a lot of cardio over the years.

oatmeal is great for you. just don't eat those prepackaged types that are loaded with sugar on a regular basis.
Dash27
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(12-02-2012, 04:26 PM)
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Originally Posted by Verbal Intercourse

How can calories in vs. out be irrelevant?

Is it not more a matter of low carb diets being higher in fat and protein, which in turn are more filling and less likely to lead to overeating than a carbohydrate centered diet?

The general proposal to my understanding is that if you eat the "right" foods, you wouldnt have to think about counting calories. You'd be naturally leaner and can follow your bodies natural hunger signals. Insulin secretion by grains and sugars confuses that response.
Coldsnap
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(12-02-2012, 04:28 PM)
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Originally Posted by PhoenixDark

What about oatmeal? Just curious; I tend to eat boneless chicken breasts and tilapia fish, with a veggie, but I wonder if I can add oatmeal to my breakfast regimen?

My metabolism is awesome so I don't really gain weight, but then again I also have done a lot of cardio over the years.

Oatmeal still spikes insulin :( I wouldn't eat it at breakfast if you are looking to loose weight, if you are looking to gain weight then yes
entrement
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(12-02-2012, 04:29 PM)
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Originally Posted by PhoenixDark

What about oatmeal? Just curious; I tend to eat boneless chicken breasts and tilapia fish, with a veggie, but I wonder if I can add oatmeal to my breakfast regimen?

My metabolism is awesome so I don't really gain weight, but then again I also have done a lot of cardio over the years.

If you're not insulin resistant oatmeal is fine without sugar of course.

Do you work out? Again, exercise improves insulin sensitivity, if so the additional good carbs won't hurt much.
Nemesis_
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(12-02-2012, 04:30 PM)
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People need to understand that every single one of us have different constitutions and different metabolisms. That much SHOULD be obvious given how unique and varied we all are as people.

Hence "I DO THIS BUT IM NOT FAT" comments are pointless and really just plain dumb.

Working as an intern this is one of the most frustrating things I have to come across ;_;

Also I think Atkins is really bad for yew but whatever
teh_pwn
"Saturated fat causes heart disease as much as Brawndo is what plants crave."
(12-02-2012, 04:30 PM)
I believe Taubes is spot on about the causality not being spreadsheets, but I think his explanation is a subset of the complete reason. I think that modern food, particularly in American food and fast food, reinforces eating to the point that it overwhelms the body's homeostatis mechanisms to keep body composition in check. You can call this reinforcement factor "food reward". Carbohydrates, especially ones that are warm, have pleasing texture, seasoning, sweet taste, oil, and glutamate, have some of the strongest food reward. Though it is not inextricable. Take pepperoni cheese melts or atkins endulge, and I bet you will overeat these.

But again, big picture Taubes is correct. I don't see how you can argue that obesity is solely due to insufficient exercise and too much eating. That doesn't explain causality, and there are so many cultures that refute that hypothesis. Take the United States of 1950s. Aerobics didn't exist, Dr Kenneth Cooper created the term in the 60s. There was no fitness industry like there is today. There were cars, and people didn't exercise that much. What was also missing? Modern fast and junk food. But to be fair again, the dietary habits of 1950s and pre-1950s America also contradict Taubes with regard to carbs...Americans ate plenty of corn meal and sour dough bread.
Last edited by teh_pwn; 12-02-2012 at 04:33 PM.
Dash27
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(12-02-2012, 04:30 PM)
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Originally Posted by PhoenixDark

What about oatmeal? Just curious; I tend to eat boneless chicken breasts and tilapia fish, with a veggie, but I wonder if I can add oatmeal to my breakfast regimen?

My metabolism is awesome so I don't really gain weight, but then again I also have done a lot of cardio over the years.


Hah. Oatmeal is one of my staple foods. It's something I started eating when I started giving a damn about eating healthy. I eat regular Quaker oats with a bit of whey protein powder and some berries or grapes.

Having said that! It was recently suggested to me that my beloved oatmeal is basically a big bowl of sugar. I am beginning to believe that is true. Putting aside all the rest of it, a book posed this question to me:

How do you feel after eating your oatmeal breakfast? Do you feel good after eating it? (yes I do) Are you hungry a couple of hours later, do you feel sluggish a couple hours later? (Shit, yes. I do).

So really, it's acting as a sugar rush. At least that's the suggestion. Now contrast that with a breakfast of eggs, bacon, avocado, some peppers or tomatoes. Big difference.
Prologue
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(12-02-2012, 04:31 PM)
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Originally Posted by Dash27

The general proposal to my understanding is that if you eat the "right" foods, you wouldnt have to think about counting calories. You'd be naturally leaner and can follow your bodies natural hunger signals. Insulin secretion by grains and sugars confuses that response.

yea but you can't eat 4000 cals worth of the "right" foods and lose weight so thats moot. Calories in/out works for most of the population
pompidu
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(12-02-2012, 04:31 PM)
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Originally Posted by Dash27

The general proposal to my understanding is that if you eat the "right" foods, you wouldnt have to think about counting calories. You'd be naturally leaner and can follow your bodies natural hunger signals. Insulin secretion by grains and sugars confuses that response.

Is his book supported by evidence? I don't understand this guys "goal", is it weight loss or healthy eating?
BattleMonkey
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(12-02-2012, 04:32 PM)
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I eat tons of carbs daily and am skinny as heck. Delicious breads n pasta Mmmm
Wafflecakes
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(12-02-2012, 04:33 PM)
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Originally Posted by Nemesis_

People need to understand that every single one of us have different constitutions and different metabolisms. That much SHOULD be obvious given how unique and varied we all are as people.

Hence "I DO THIS BUT IM NOT FAT" comments are pointless and really just plain dumb.

Working as an intern this is one of the most frustrating things I have to come across ;_;

Also I think Atkins is really bad for yew but whatever

TBH I think almost all successful diets are based on a diet....then adjusted to what works for you. I started with atkins as a starting point and have great success. Atkins was just way too restrictive and structured for my tastes (I am an incredibly picky eater)
EVOL 100%
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(12-02-2012, 04:33 PM)
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I'm freakishly thin so this doesn't apply to me but my father has been getting great results by reducing carbs in his diet and he lost a lot of weight.

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