[Neff]

Forgive me for starting this thread despite there already being a VC and Nintendo download discussion, but I feel this needs a spotlight as it's a big issue for European Wii U owners.

Balloon Fight only runs in 50hz on the console and Gamepad.

50hz is an antiquated refresh rate used almost exclusively by European CRT PAL televisions. NTSC CRT tvs from the US and Japan refresh at 60hz. Almost every console/arcade videogame ever made is created for hardware designed to refresh its display at 60hz (60fps) regardless of the framerate of the game engine itself. To allow a 60hz game to display on a 50hz tv, the game's hardware must be commanded to run slower either by permanent design, or by the game itself. In PAL's case, almost every console from the NES to the Dreamcast is slowed down by 17% compared to their NTSC counterparts, depending on the hardware manufacturer or game developer. The result is a drastic difference in gameplay speed and music.

Sonic the Hedgehog comparison

FFX comparison

F-Zero X comparison

Castlevania comparison

Balloon Fight comparison

Another side-effect is the higher resolution of PAL, which NTSC games must literally compress themselves to conform to, leaving blank borders at the top and bottom of the screen.



Some console games have used clever workarounds, bumping up the speed and stretching the game engine vertically, but the tradeoff was still always second best. And sadly in most cases, developers rarely gave a thought to Europe at all and released games as unoptimised shadows of their original versions.

For gaming enthusiasts and collectors, these failings are obviously very disheartening.

Fortunately it all came to an end in 2005 and 2006 when 360 and PS3 allowed users to instruct the console to display *every* game in 60hz.

Then Wii came along and unwisely locked all its VC games to 50hz. Despite 3DS admirably featuring NTSC-speed/display vc games, we're apparently back where we started with Wii U.

I know I'm not alone in my disappointment. The Balloon Fight Miiverse has many posts from people happy with the game, but also a surprising amount of people dismayed about the lack of 60hz, all these were posted within the last five hours;



60hz is the standard for DD/compilation ports of old games, and ironically, even Nintendo themselves agree that the 60hz experience is superior. From the first page of most of their first party Wii manuals:

.

It may be too early to cry, future games may very well incorporate 60hz or offer alternate versions, but in 2013, any trace of PAL at all is a shockingly bad move. Nintendo really need to heed the complaints, and they need to address this issue.

Petition

Have your say here.

[MrNyarlathotep]

Fortunately it all came to an end in 2005 and 2006 when 360 and PS3 allowed users to instruct the console to display *every* game in 60hz.

The PSN PS1 classics are still the shitty 50Hz versions too, I believe.
Along with the extended SCEE bootup logo.

[Neff]

The PSN PS1 classics are still the shitty 50Hz versions too, I believe. Along with the extended SCEE bootup logo.

Yes, I probably should have illustrated that that only happens with games specifically-made for PS3/360.

At least with PSN we have the luxury of being able to set up US/JP accounts and dload NTSC games to our PAL consoles. Not so with Wii U.

[jarosh]

It is utterly baffling, and the reason why I won't be buying any VC games for affected systems on the Wii U (same was the case for the Wii), maybe with a few exceptions. Truly mindblowing that this still happens in the year 2013.

[MrNyarlathotep]

I can only assume the reason we get VC and PSN shitty PAL conversions is so they're accurate for peoples memories of gameplay.

Some games are easier to play slowed down by almost 20%.

EDIT:
At least the Wii N64 VC games were fullscreen 60Hz, making them better then the originals.

[EloquentM]

I'm surprised people on miiverse even know this let alone notice it.

[Atmej]

I won't buy a single 50Hz game, even if it's only 30 cents. There is no excuse for this.

I can only assume the reason we get VC and PSN shitty PAL conversions is so they're accurate for peoples memories of gameplay. Some games are easier to play slowed down by almost 20%. EDIT: At least the Wii N64 VC games were fullscreen 60Hz, making them better then the originals.

How about they gives us an option? Is this too much to ask?

[CTLance]

AGAINST!

They're still doing this? I can't believe it.

[KennyLinder]

I can only assume the reason we get VC and PSN shitty PAL conversions is so they're accurate for peoples memories of gameplay. Some games are easier to play slowed down by almost 20%. EDIT: At least the Wii N64 VC games were fullscreen 60Hz, making them better then the originals.

Are you sure? I distinctly remember playing PAL Wave Race 64 with its HUGE borders (way bigger than NTSC) on it.


The reason for it is localisation. US NTSC versions will typically be English only.

I emailed Nintendo this afternoon to complain and ask for a reason why we aren't getting NTSC versions as an option. I'll post the reply.

[Lord Ghirahim]

One of the reasons I don't invest heavily in local systems.

[JordanKZ]

This is fucking staggering Nintendo.

I didn't even know you could pass a 50hz signal through HDMI. I wondered by Balloon Fight felt so damn slow.

*sigh*

[Starwolf_UK]

Another generation I don't have to bother with the VC then...though at £3.50 per NES game I'd show a lot more restraint than £0.99...

The PSN PS1 classics are still the shitty 50Hz versions too, I believe.

This also extends to import PS1 games bought on European PSN stores as well. At least with PSN you can actually buy off the other regions stores...though if the game isn't out on those stores...

[XANDER CAGE]

The whole 50hz thing has always baffled me.

Does the Wii U allow you to force 60hz like the 360 and PS3 do, on TVs without HDMI and such?

[richisawesome]

This is why I didn't buy any games on the Wii virtual console, apart from the DKC series and the few N64 games that were optimised for PAL. It's absolutely fucking inexcusable.

SNES9x GX filled my needs fine. Got it installed on my Wii U now via the homebrew channel, and hopefully a Wii U native hack comes soon as I will refuse to pay for any VC games that are 50hz. Instead, I'll stick to my emulator (which runs brilliantly) and retrode combo. Ripped my games and saves, and shoved them onto an SD card for the Wii.

Absolutely no faith in Nintendo offering us 60hz games, due to the ratings.

[Neff]

I'm surprised people on miiverse even know this let alone notice it.

This is the heartbreaking thing. There's a surplus of hardcore, oldschool gamers on Miiverse. It's no surprise that the first Wii U owners would be.

And yet Nintendo doesn't seem to recognise this at all. They took us to heaven with today's Direct, then took us to hell with the return of PAL gaming.

[MrNyarlathotep]

Are you sure? I distinctly remember playing PAL Wave Race 64 with its HUGE borders (way bigger than NTSC) on it.

I don't own Wave Race 64 on the VC, but the VC titles I do own are notably improved over the original PAL hardware and fullscreen.

EDIT:

This also extends to import PS1 games bought on European PSN stores as well. At least with PSN you can actually buy off the other regions stores...though if the game isn't out on those stores...

Although weirdly the Hanarabi Festival titles on the Vc are 60Hz PAL optimised :S

[amaron11]

Not saying the complaints aren't valid here, but can/will they update them to 60hz?

[Robin64]

It's mindboggling. I've already politely made my annoyance know on Miiverse, hopefully someone somewhere will see it. Then do nothing.

I will not be supporting Virtual Console on the Wii U simply because of this.

Not saying the complaints aren't valid here, but can/will they update them to 60hz?

They could simply pack the US ROM in the package instead of the PAL one.

[Dead Man Typing]

I thought this came to an end on October 14th 1999 when Sonic Adventure 1 prompted me to do a 60hz test. Why Nintendo are 13 years behind (and counting) is truly baffling.

The fact that my Wii U only outputs Wii games at 50hz when using component cables is also a huge problem.

[blu]

Never played the original so I cannot compare, but are you sure it's 50Hz on the PAL consoles? My tv says the source signal is 60Hz.

[AndyMoogle]

They can't be 50Hz on the gamepad, so I think it's safe to say that we won't have this problem again.

[KennyLinder]

I don't own Wave Race 64 on the VC, but the VC titles I do own are notably improved over the original PAL hardware and fullscreen. EDIT: Although weirdly the Hanarabi Festival titles on the Vc are 60Hz PAL optimised :S

It looks like some were optimised for full-screen, but still ran slower at 50hz.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_Console

PAL issues
With the launch of the Wii in territories using the PAL television system, it has become apparent that in most cases the games supplied for the Virtual Console run in 50 Hz mode and in their original unoptimized state. Unoptimized PAL games run roughly 17% slower than their original speed in 60 Hz and have borders covering the top and the bottom of the screen. Setting the Wii console to 60 Hz mode does not force the 50 Hz game into 60 Hz mode (as is possible on emulators and modified PAL consoles).
All currently released Nintendo 64 games are partially PAL optimized, resulting in full screen games (although still running in 50 Hz and locked to the original slower gameplay speed). This optimization was not the case for the original cartridge versions of Super Mario 64, Wave Race 64 or Mario Kart 64, making the Virtual Console versions superior in that regard.

Additionally, some Super Nintendo games are also partially PAL optimized with reduced borders but still retaining the slower run speed of the original PAL release (Super Mario World, Super Probotector and Street Fighter II).

A select few games were already optimized in the original release to begin with, and are thus just as fast as their 60 Hz counterparts this time around (the most obvious examples being Donkey Kong Country and Donkey Kong Country 2: Diddy's Kong Quest).

TurboGrafx-16 games are the only Virtual Console games to actually run in 60 Hz on PAL Wii systems; this is because the game data was never changed for release in PAL territories, the original hardware itself performed the conversion to a 50 Hz signal.

One example of a poor PAL conversion is seen in the Virtual Console release of Sonic the Hedgehog, which retains the slower framerate, music and borders of the original PAL Mega Drive version,[69] despite the fact that the GameCube release Sonic Mega Collection allows PAL users to choose which version of the game they want to play.
Recently, during Nintendo's 'Hanabi Festival' campaign, certain titles that were never released in Europe are being added to the Virtual console. Some of these games, namely the Japan-only titles such as Super Mario Bros.: The Lost Levels, are run in 60 Hz only, thus keeping the original speed and gameplay. A small reminder is shown when previewing the game's channel. Interestingly, these games can actually be played in both PAL60 (480i) and 480p modes. This makes these releases look significantly better on Progressive displays such as LCD TV's. The fast moving sprites in NES and SNES games generally create a significant amount of interlace artifacts on such displays that the 480p option resolves. However Hanabi Mega Drive titles run in 50 Hz with the usual PAL conversion problems, despite not been released in PAL.

Initially, some PAL Virtual Console games would not display correctly on high-definition televisions when connected via the component lead. However, starting with the April 13, 2007 update of the PAL Virtual Console, certain newly added games, such as Punch-Out!!, support the "Wii Component Cable Interlace mode." This is a temporary fix to problems with various Virtual Console games being played over component cable on HDTVs. The mode can be enabled by accessing the operations guide of the game, and (with the Nunchuk attached) pressing the buttons Z + A + 2 simultaneously. A sound is played if the mode is enabled correctly. Several older games also have updates available to enable the feature, such as Super Castlevania IV. The mode can be disabled by using the same method, but with the button combination Z + A + 1 instead. A full list of games supporting this mode is available at vc-forums.com.[70]

The PAL versions of all 3D Classics games on the Nintendo 3DS except Xevious and TwinBee runs much smoother at 60 Hz unlike the Wii's Virtual Console versions which only run at 50 Hz mainly due to the fact the 3DS versions are semi-modified ports of their original NES versions. The ambassador and the full release versions of the NES games, however, retain their original PAL formats. <-- The fuck!

[Herbspicesoy]

This is fucking staggering Nintendo.

Doesn't Sony do this too?
I recall my PSX games I downloaded on PSN, playing on my PSP, being 50hz + borders.

[Robin64]

Never played the original so I cannot compare, but are you sure it's 50Hz on the PAL consoles? My tv says the source signal is 60Hz.

It's a little different to how it used to be. The source signal is now 60hz, but the ROM is internally running at the old speed, the 17.5% slower.

They can't be 50Hz on the gamepad, so I think it's safe to say that we won't have this problem again.

But it is. Not in terms of how often the screen updates, but in terms of how slow it's running.

[KennyLinder]

They can't be 50Hz on the gamepad, so I think it's safe to say that we won't have this problem again.

Why not? The PAL Wii U must support 50hz.

[MrNyarlathotep]

It looks like some were optimised for full-screen, but still ran slower at 50hz.

Weird, F-Zero X seems faster than my actual N64 copy did.
It must be psychological, based on the bigger screen real estate.

Doesn't Sony do this too? I recall my PSX games I downloaded on PSN, playing on my PSP, being 50hz + borders.

yeah, they do, which is why it seems to be a conscious effort to let people play games 'as they remember them'.

bordered, slow, and shitty.

[BolognaSoup]

The whole 50hz thing has always baffled me. Does the Wii U allow you to force 60hz like the 360 and PS3 do, on TVs without HDMI and such?

I don't think it's possible to connect the U with anything but HDMI.

[Koren]

The whole 50hz thing has always baffled me. Does the Wii U allow you to force 60hz like the 360 and PS3 do, on TVs without HDMI and such?

I don't remember such flexibility on PS3... There's game that simply WON'T play in SD because of a 50/60 Hz compatibility problem (mind you, not a TV one, the console actually say 'the game is not compatible with the selected output')

[tsab]

Forgive me for starting this thread despite there already being a VC and Nintendo download discussion, but I feel this needs a spotlight as it's a big issue for European Wii U owners. Balloon Fight only runs in 50hz on the console and Gamepad. 50hz is an antiquated refresh rate used almost exclusively by European CRT PAL televisions. NTSC CRT tvs from the US and Japan refresh at 60hz. Almost every console/arcade videogame ever made is created for hardware designed to refresh its display at 60hz (60fps) regardless of the framerate of the game engine itself. To allow a 60hz game to display on a 50hz tv, the game's hardware must be commanded to run slower either by permanent design, or by the game itself. In PAL's case, almost every console from the NES to the Dreamcast is slowed down by 17% compared to their NTSC counterparts, depending on the hardware manufacturer or game developer. The result is a drastic difference in gameplay speed and music. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Er67im9RlHI Another side-effect is the higher resolution of PAL, which NTSC games must literally compress themselves to conform to, leaving blank borders at the top and bottom of the screen. Some console games have used clever workarounds, bumping up the speed and stretching the game engine vertically, but the tradeoff was still always second best. And sadly in most cases, developers rarely gave a thought to Europe at all and released games as unoptimised shadows of their original versions. For gaming enthusiasts and collectors, these failings are obviously very disheartening. Fortunately it all came to an end in 2005 and 2006 when 360 and PS3 allowed users to instruct the console to display *every* game in 60hz. Then Wii came along and unwisely locked all its VC games to 50hz. Despite 3DS admirably featuring NTSC-speed/display vc games, we're apparently back where we started with Wii U. I know I'm not alone in my disappointment. The Balloon Fight Miiverse has many posts from people happy with the game, but also a surprising amount of people dismayed about the lack of 60hz. 60hz is the standard for DD/compilation ports of old games, but apparently not for Nintendo's classic legacy. It may be too early to cry, future games may very well incorporate 60hz or offer alternate versions, but in 2013, any trace of PAL at all is a shockingly bad move. Nintendo really need to heed the complaints, and they need to address this issue. Have your say here.

That's wrong. 95%+ of Dreamcast PAL games had a Refresh rate selector (50/60Hz), the system always ran fullspeed it was never slower (or underclocked).


That sad thing is Nintendo is using the PAL ROMS again for their WiiU VC. 3DS uses the NTSC 60Hz Roms. I compared both Ballon Fight games a few hours ago.
Hopefully when they will finalise the VC, and launch it official, they will switch to the NTSC roms

[dr. apocalipsis]

Fortunately it all came to an end in 2005 and 2006 when 360 and PS3 allowed users to instruct the console to display *every* game in 60hz.

Wrong. Almost every Dreamcast PAL release have Built-in PAL60 option. And you can force all, except for 2-3 PAL games, to run at PAL60 with a loader disc. Only RE:CV and Skies of Arcadia PAL can't be forced to PAL60 (or VGA mode) due to overscan added to 50hz mode. You can load NTSC versions at 60hz in a PAL machine, though.

[KennyLinder]

We need to get Eurogamer or someone with a voice asking Nintendo about this. I'd happily lap up £100's worth of Nintendo games but I am not buying PAL versions. My first PAL Nintendo system is a Wii and the games had 60hz options (well pretty much all). I am not starting now.

[MrNyarlathotep]

That's wrong. 95%+ of Dreamcast PAL games had a Refresh rate selector (50/60Hz), the system always ran fullspeed it was never slower (or underclocked).

Didn't the GC have a bootable 60Hz mode for TVs that supported it, too?

IIRC, you held down the green button on bootup and it would launch in 60Hz mode.

[RockmanWhore]

Pal games are horrible, it's a shame that Nintendo doesn't fix this shit, but it would be too much work. Thanks god there are tons of emulator on PC or other platform, I can't stand playing these shitty PAL games any more. It was ok when I was a kid and didn't knew, but not any more. Fix this shit Nintendo, or I'm never going to buy any VC game.

[richisawesome]

Didn't the GC have a bootable 60Hz mode for TVs that supported it, too? IIRC, you held down the green button on bootup and it would launch in 60Hz mode.

You'd hold down the red button (B). And not all games supported it.

Some GC games (such as Metroid Prime 2) were 60hz only.

[Ein Bear]

50hz should have died completely when the Dreamcast launched with it's wonderful 60hz options.

It's an absolute piss take to still expect us to buy these gimped versions, and I won't be supporting the Virtual Console until they fix it.

[Bony Manifesto]

The Dreamcast, PS2, Gamecube and Xbox all had some games that supported 60Hz, but support was pretty patchy.

[Neff]

I'll credit Dreamcast for being the first console to seriously attempt to bring 60hz to European gamers' attention, but I had quite a few games for it (a minority, but quite a few nonetheless) that didn't have a 60hz option.

[Fredrik]

Wrote this in the WiiU VC thread:


The 50hz problem is actually quite interesting. Basically every single 8/16 bit PAL game on any playform runs slower and the image is squished compared to the NTSC version. But that's also what I'm used to in these games. So I don't know. It may sound like crazy talk but I buy these games to get nostalgic and therefore I don't mind the slower speed, having a version that feels like it's running in turbo mode is much worse imo, it takes the nostalgia away for me... even though that's exactly how it's supposed to run. :/

I wouldn't mind a 50/60 hz option though. For pure nostalgia I could choose 50hz and if I never played the game back in the days I could choose 60hz.

[MKUltra]

The first thing I noticed after starting Balloon Fight was the speed of the music being off, hopefully enough people complain on Miiverse and on their Club Nintendo survey.

[blu]

It's a little different to how it used to be. The source signal is now 60hz, but the ROM is internally running at the old speed, the 17.5% slower.

If you guys say so. But I'm surprised they managed to show 50Hz fps so flawlessly over a 60Hz signal - not a single frame of stutter noticed during my first sitting with the game.

[MrNyarlathotep]

Pal games are horrible

Yeah, it's a shame, particularly as PAL is superior to NTSC as a standard. Sort of the downside of that I guess.

You'd hold down the red button (B). And not all games supported it.

Yeah, that's right. I didn't use it much, I didn't have a 60Hz TV until the GC was basically dead.

[Lord Ghirahim]

Didn't the GC have a bootable 60Hz mode for TVs that supported it, too? IIRC, you held down the green button on bootup and it would launch in 60Hz mode.

I remember when I accidentally let The Wind Waker play in 50Hz. I felt sick and looked away before turning it off. No hyperbole.

[kobashi100]

Me and bro had Japanese Wii so all of our VC games are 60hz goodness!

Now we both have PAL Wii U's and there is no way I am gonna re-invest in all these games again if they only run in 50hz..

This is some BS!!

[dark_prinny]

Watch me not buying a single VC game.

Fix this mess Nintendo.

[Kikujiro]

As an European I still remember the godawful FFX pal version, I later bought the International version and it was like a different game.

[Robin64]

I made a little video, just to show.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCY47AuqRLg

(Sorry it's sideways, my phone's sensor seems to be knackered. YouTube is currently "editing" a rotation request, not sure how long that normally takes)

[DjRoomba]

I feel like this is alot of you being overly sensitive nerds complaining about notning
Take a breather, walk outside from your basements for 10 minutes then come back and realise that this isn't the end of the world. Nintendo is giving you balloon fight for free guys.

[Coolwhip]

Come on Nintendo, if you take your sweet time with the VC, at least get it right..

[Robin64]

I feel like this is alot of you being overly sensitive nerds complaining about notning Take a breather, walk outside from your basements for 10 minutes then come back and realise that this isn't the end of the world. Nintendo is giving you balloon fight for free guys.

It's not about Balloon Fight? It's about the entire Virtual Console service. I guess we'll see how F-Zero is next month.

[dark_prinny]

I feel like this is alot of you being overly sensitive nerds complaining about notning Take a breather, walk outside from your basements for 10 minutes then come back and realise that this isn't the end of the world. Nintendo is giving you balloon fight for free guys.

I hope You're triying to be sarcastic.