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QaaQer
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(01-26-2013, 07:24 AM)
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http://timothylottes.blogspot.ca/201...d-durango.html

Interesting blog post from Timothy Lottes:

Working assuming the Eurogamer Article is mostly correct with the exception of maybe exact clocks, amount of memory, and number of enabled cores (all of which could easily change to adapt to yields)....

PS4
The real reason to get excited about a PS4 is what Sony as a company does with the OS and system libraries as a platform, and what this enables 1st party studios to do, when they make PS4-only games. If PS4 has a real-time OS, with a libGCM style low level access to the GPU, then the PS4 1st party games will be years ahead of the PC simply because it opens up what is possible on the GPU. Note this won't happen right away on launch, but once developers tool up for the platform, this will be the case. As a PC guy who knows hardware to the metal, I spend most of my days in frustration knowing damn well what I could do with the hardware, but what I cannot do because Microsoft and IHVs wont provide low-level GPU access in PC APIs. One simple example, drawcalls on PC have easily 10x to 100x the overhead of a console with a libGCM style API....

I could continue here, but I'm not, by now you get the picture, launch titles will likely be DX11 ports, so perhaps not much better than what could be done on PC. However if Sony provides the real-time OS with libGCM v2 for GCN, one or two years out, 1st party devs and Sony's internal teams like the ICE team, will have had long enough to build up tech to really leverage the platform.

I'm excited for what this platform will provide for PS4-only 1st party titles and developers who still have the balls to do a non-portable game this next round....
Xbox720
Working here assuming the Eurogamer Article is close to correct. On this platform I'd be concerned with memory bandwidth. Only DDR3 for system/GPU memory pared with 32MB of "ESRAM" sounds troubling....If this GPU is pre-GCN with a serious performance gap to PS4, then this next Xbox will act like a boat anchor, dragging down the min-spec target for cross-platform next-generation games.

My guess is that the real reason for 8GB of memory is because this box is a DVR which actually runs "Windows" (which requires a GB or two or three of "overhead"), but like Windows RT (Windows on ARM) only exposes a non-desktop UI to the user. There are a bunch of reasons they might ditch the real-time console OS, one being that if they don't provide low level access to developers, that it might enable a faster refresh on backwards compatible hardware. In theory the developer just targets the box like it was a special DX11 "PC" with a few extra changes like hints for surfaces which should go in ESRAM, then on the next refresh hardware, all prior games just get better FPS or resolution or AA. Of course if they do that, then it is just another PC, just lower performance, with all the latency baggage, and lack of low level magic which makes 1st party games stand out and sell the platform.

If he is correct, it is going to be facinating to see if a win8 box can 'win' over a to-the-metal gaming console.

edit: From the comments section of the blog (thanks JohnnySasaki86)

A fast GDDR5 will be the desired option for developers. All the interesting cases for good anti-aliasing require a large amount of bandwidth and RAM. A tiny 32MB chunk of ESRAM will not fit that need even for forward rendering at 1080p. I think some developers could hit 1080p@60fps with the rumored Orbis specs even with good AA. My personal project is targeting 1080p@60fps with great AA on a 560ti which is a little slower than the rumored Orbis specs. There is no way my engine would hit that target on the rumored 720 specs. Ultimately on Orbis I guess devs target 1080p/30fps (with some motion blur) and leverage the lower latency OS stack and scan out at 60fps (double scan frames) to provide a really great lower-latency experience. Maybe the same title on 720 would render at 720p/30fps, and maybe Microsoft is dedicating a few CPU hardware threads to the GPU driver stack to remove the latency problem (assuming this is a "Windows" OS under the covers).


TLDR: Based on rumour/leaked specs Timothy Lottes sees the big picture for Microsoft's 720 as:

  1. not making a custom OS, it is high cost,
  2. cheaper hardware, don't sell at a loss,
  3. selling a DVR, going after more than just gamers,
  4. focus on the more casual, larger player base
  5. refresh hardware often, get people to purchase more often,
  6. build a "PC", easier to port games from

Last edited by Untalkative_Bunny; 01-26-2013 at 05:00 PM.
Sid
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(01-26-2013, 07:28 AM)
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Who is this guy?
QaaQer
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(01-26-2013, 07:29 AM)
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Originally Posted by Sid

Who is this guy?

Fast Approximate Anti-Aliasing (FXAA) is an anti-aliasing algorithm created by Timothy Lottes under NVIDIA.

smart guy.
Astral/H3X
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(01-26-2013, 07:30 AM)
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Sounds interesting, but in a world where BF3 runs on consoles I can't see it being too hampering.
Elixist
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(01-26-2013, 07:31 AM)
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shots fired! thought this thread was about the infamous xbox boat heh.
Striek
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(01-26-2013, 07:32 AM)
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Hes only speculating based off rumoured specs that we have no way of knowing are accurate/tell the whole story. Not worth getting worked up over.
Sid
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(01-26-2013, 07:32 AM)
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Originally Posted by Untalkative_Bunny

Fast Approximate Anti-Aliasing (FXAA) is an anti-aliasing algorithm created by Timothy Lottes under NVIDIA.

smart guy.

This will be interesting to see when they are launched.
nib95
Banned
(01-26-2013, 07:33 AM)
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This thread should be entertaining if it picks up steam lol.
Sid
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(01-26-2013, 07:34 AM)
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Originally Posted by nib95

This thread should be entertaining if it picks up steam lol.

It needs a better title for that lol.
flipswitch
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(01-26-2013, 07:34 AM)
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nvm
Last edited by flipswitch; 01-26-2013 at 08:07 AM.
ii Stryker
Banned
(01-26-2013, 07:35 AM)
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So basically the same thing as this gen. Cool.
QaaQer
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(01-26-2013, 07:36 AM)
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Originally Posted by H3XAntiStyle

Sounds interesting, but in a world where BF3 runs on consoles I can't see it being too hampering.

We'll be in a BF4 world soon.
TimeEffect
Member
(01-26-2013, 07:37 AM)
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I wonder which console will dictate the rest of the industry more next gen.
Gorillaz
sober as a drunk judge
(01-26-2013, 07:37 AM)
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oh boy here we go....


they will both do fine
Night_Trekker
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(01-26-2013, 07:37 AM)
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I expected to see pics of the Xbox Boat already. For shame.
Orayn
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(01-26-2013, 07:37 AM)
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Originally Posted by ii Stryker

So basically the same thing as this gen. Cool.

What multiplats did you play?
BruiserBear
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(01-26-2013, 07:38 AM)
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Originally Posted by Striek

Hes only speculating based off rumoured specs that we have no way of knowing are accurate/tell the whole story. Not worth getting worked up over.

These specs are nearly confirmed at this point.
QaaQer
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(01-26-2013, 07:38 AM)
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Originally Posted by flipswitch

Wasn't this posted in the latest dev kit orbis thread?

Probably. Evilore isn't too keen on mega-catch-all threads though, because only the hardest of the hardcore read 300 page threads, and that makes neogaf less informative.
specialguy
Banned
(01-26-2013, 07:38 AM)

Originally Posted by Sid

Who is this guy?

a guy who doesnt know much.

seriously, his name kicks around tech circles from time to time and i noticed before like, what the hell is this guy thinking? (cant remember the topic).

i'm sure he's super smart at programming but seems to have no clue about bigger pictures.

if you read his article he's basically saying stupid things like next box is going to just be a dumb dx11 box, no coding to the metal, only going to be used for up-resed 360 ports, etc etc. complete fabrications and wishful thinking

seems very sony biased.

this is useless, only pay attention to these when programmers that are actually making games on both have an opinion, and even then, tread carefully.

he's also implying xbox gpu will be pre-gcn for example, when no rumors say that. he's completely making things up.
sangreal
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(01-26-2013, 07:39 AM)
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Originally Posted by BruiserBear

These specs are nearly confirmed at this point, and he makes a point of saying any minor differences will be irrelevant.

but he also goes beyond the rumors to speculate on stuff he made up, like the OS characteristics.
JohnnySasaki86
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(01-26-2013, 07:39 AM)
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Originally Posted by Striek

Hes only speculating based off rumoured specs that we have no way of knowing are accurate/tell the whole story. Not worth getting worked up over.

No but it adds to the debate between significant more memory vs less memory but much faster. This guy has a lot more technical know how then the average person on gaf. If he says 4GB DDR5> 8 DDR3/4, it adds more weight to that argument.
CrunchinJelly
formerly cjelly
(01-26-2013, 07:40 AM)
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I don't think this guy likes Windows/Direct-X/Microsoft.
phosphor112
Banned
(01-26-2013, 07:40 AM)
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So someone finally made a thread?

Anyway, he's going on rumors (as the rest of us) but what he has to say is valuable. We'll have to see though.

Originally Posted by CrunchinJelly

I don't think this guy likes Windows/Direct-X/Microsoft.

Most graphical coders don't.
meta4
Junior Member
(01-26-2013, 07:40 AM)
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To the question asked by one the posts in the comments section

can u please shed some light on the ram situation for both consoles ; which setup of the two ( 3.5 GB of gddr5 at 192GB/s and 5 GB of ddr3 at 68 GB/s with 32mb esram at 102 GB/s ) will be more preferable by the 3rd party developers ? which type of games will favour low amount and high bandwidth ram or vice versa ? Lastly will we see 1080p/60fps games to be the norm on orbis or on both the next gen consoles ?

This was his answer -

A fast GDDR5 will be the desired option for developers. All the interesting cases for good anti-aliasing require a large amount of bandwidth and RAM. A tiny 32MB chunk of ESRAM will not fit that need even for forward rendering at 1080p. I think some developers could hit 1080p@60fps with the rumored Orbis specs even with good AA. My personal project is targeting 1080p@60fps with great AA on a 560ti which is a little slower than the rumored Orbis specs. There is no way my engine would hit that target on the rumored 720 specs. Ultimately on Orbis I guess devs target 1080p/30fps (with some motion blur) and leverage the lower latency OS stack and scan out at 60fps (double scan frames) to provide a really great lower-latency experience. Maybe the same title on 720 would render at 720p/30fps, and maybe Microsoft is dedicating a few CPU hardware threads to the GPU driver stack to remove the latency problem (assuming this is a "Windows" OS under the covers)

It appears we are missing something here if the two consoles are similar powerwise. These rumored specs have to be wrong otherwise it seems to be a pretty problematic difference. These rumored specs may not be legit.
Last edited by meta4; 01-26-2013 at 07:42 AM.
BruiserBear
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(01-26-2013, 07:40 AM)
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Originally Posted by sangreal

but he also goes beyond the rumors to speculate on stuff he made up, like the OS characteristics.

He's basing that on how the two previous consoles handled things. There is little reason to believe that stuff will change much.
HoodWinked
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(01-26-2013, 07:41 AM)
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he killed his credibility with the last paragraph.
deanos
Banned
(01-26-2013, 07:41 AM)

Originally Posted by specialguy

a guy who doesnt know much.

seriously, his name kicks around tech circles from time to time and i noticed before like, what the hell is this guy thinking? (cant remember the topic).

i'm sure he's super smart at programming but seems to have no clue about bigger pictures.

if you read his article he's basically saying stupid things like next box is going to just be a dumb dx11 box, no coding to the metal, only going to be used for up-resed 360 ports, etc etc. complete fabrications and wishful thinking

seems very sony biased.

this is useless, only pay attention to these when programmers that are actually making games on both have an opinion, and even then, tread carefully.

someone here is emotionally invested. who might that be.

GavinGT
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(01-26-2013, 07:41 AM)
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Before PS3 came out, was anyone predicting it would drag down third party development? I certainly don't recall anyone saying that.
UrbanRats
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(01-26-2013, 07:42 AM)
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Oh boy, does this mean that Naughty Dog's games will look even more ahead of everyone else's, graphically?
deanos
Banned
(01-26-2013, 07:43 AM)

Originally Posted by UrbanRats

Oh boy, does this mean that Naughty Dog's games will look even more ahead of everyone else's, graphically?

probably.
nib95
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(01-26-2013, 07:43 AM)
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Originally Posted by specialguy

a guy who doesnt know much.

seriously, his name kicks around tech circles from time to time and i noticed before like, what the hell is this guy thinking? (cant remember the topic).

i'm sure he's super smart at programming but seems to have no clue about bigger pictures.

if you read his article he's basically saying stupid things like next box is going to just be a dumb dx11 box, no coding to the metal, only going to be used for up-resed 360 ports, etc etc. complete fabrications and wishful thinking

seems very sony biased.

this is useless, only pay attention to these when programmers that are actually making games on both have an opinion, and even then, tread carefully.

he's also implying xbox gpu will be pre-gcn for example, when no rumors say that. he's completely making things up.

Don't think he's saying that. His comment about higher res, or more aa etc I believe was in relation to launch windows titles vs later ones, when pc hardware has taken a refresh.

Also, it's funny you think he doesn't know much simply because he has an opinion that differs to yours. I think some of his post has merit, though I do agree, he is likely under valuing Durango.
sangreal
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(01-26-2013, 07:43 AM)
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Originally Posted by BruiserBear

He's basing that on how the two previous consoles handled things. There is little reason to believe that stuff will change much.

No he isn't, and I'm pretty sure he hasn't developed any console games
Thug Waffle
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(01-26-2013, 07:44 AM)
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C'mon, Microsoft! Let's hope this isn't true. I want to purchase the next Xbox instead of the PS4, but ya gotta earn it!

Don't give me a reason to probably never own another Halo game, MS.
Eusis
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(01-26-2013, 07:44 AM)
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Originally Posted by ii Stryker

So basically the same thing as this gen. Cool.

Maybe if the PS3's extra strength were actually useful for games, but from what it seemed it was better utilized for protein folding, then later on stuff like AA (FXAA actually I believe). Well, there's still the fact PS3 was blu-ray and 360 was regular DVD, and even used a bullshit security encryption that robbed games of about 2 GB making it even more suffocating, but this next gen looks to have everyone equal on that front this time.

... Though it does seem plausible that if the PS4 is the stronger console it WILL be in a way that makes a significant difference for games. That will be fascinating to watch, especially if they're willing to go with 60 FPS or whatever on PS3 and Microsoft doesn't actively block that.
Last edited by Eusis; 01-26-2013 at 07:59 AM.
bigtroyjon
Member
(01-26-2013, 07:45 AM)
Nothing being taken out of context with that thread title at all.

Edit-that was quick, post doesn't make sense anymore.
Tricky I Shadow
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(01-26-2013, 07:45 AM)
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Interesting. So far I'm liking the sound of the PS4 more than the 720.
TheUnsunghero26
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(01-26-2013, 07:45 AM)
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What rumors said anything about "Pre-GCN GPU"?
Proxy
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(01-26-2013, 07:45 AM)
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Originally Posted by meta4

To the question asked by one the posts in the comments section

can u please shed some light on the ram situation for both consoles ; which setup of the two ( 3.5 GB of gddr5 at 192GB/s and 5 GB of ddr3 at 68 GB/s with 32mb esram at 102 GB/s ) will be more preferable by the 3rd party developers ? which type of games will favour low amount and high bandwidth ram or vice versa ? Lastly will we see 1080p/60fps games to be the norm on orbis or on both the next gen consoles ?

This was his answer -



It appears we are missing something here if the two consoles are similar powerwise. These rumored specs have to be wrong otherwise it seems to be a pretty problematic difference. These rumored specs may not be legit.

This is pretty informative :

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=62108

Nvm you weren't asking. Still a good read.
El_Chino
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(01-26-2013, 07:46 AM)
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Originally Posted by TheUnsunghero26

What rumors said anything about "Pre-GCN GPU"?

Same thing I was thinking.
specialguy
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(01-26-2013, 07:47 AM)
At least two very big leaps of logic with no support seem to be made:

-Next box might have pre-GCN GPU

-MS wont allow coding to the metal of any sort
KDR_11k
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(01-26-2013, 07:47 AM)
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The problem I see is development budgets, exploiting all the power in these machines is getting pricier and pricier so fewer and fewer games can afford it. We may soon reach the point where any game that sells less than Call of Duty will make a loss.

I guess RAM size vs speed depends on what you're doing. While faster RAM is usually better some games may require game states that get too large for the smaller RAM (thinking large scale simulations here, you'd have to step down the fidelity for slower RAM but you'd have to plain cut stuff for lower RAM). Not that many modern AAA games require a large game state, after all there's only a small corridor with a handful of enemies to worry about.

I'm not seeing enough value in better and better graphics, I'd rather see them make sure that frame rates stay stable and focus on adding more game play relevant content to the game. For that matter I'd also like some more variety than just shooters with all hitscan weapons.
TheMan
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But not with what comes out of it!
(01-26-2013, 07:48 AM)
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i'm not very savvy when it comes to this hardcore tech shit, but haven't most leaked specs already shown that ps4 will be more powerful (on paper) than the 720?
GavinGT
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(01-26-2013, 07:49 AM)
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Originally Posted by specialguy

a guy who doesnt know much.

Say that to his face when he gets here. Last time we were talking about FXAA he popped into the thread and set the record straight.
Last edited by GavinGT; 01-26-2013 at 07:51 AM.
DocSeuss
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(01-26-2013, 07:49 AM)
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Originally Posted by UrbanRats

Oh boy, does this mean that Naughty Dog's games will look even more ahead of everyone else's, graphically?

Naughty Dog's games look ahead of other peoples' games graphically? What?

Artistically, sure, but from a graphical perspective, plenty of people don't just outdo them, but pound them into the dirt.
JohnnySasaki86
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(01-26-2013, 07:49 AM)
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Originally Posted by specialguy

a guy who doesnt know much.

seriously, his name kicks around tech circles from time to time and i noticed before like, what the hell is this guy thinking? (cant remember the topic).

i'm sure he's super smart at programming but seems to have no clue about bigger pictures.

if you read his article he's basically saying stupid things like next box is going to just be a dumb dx11 box, no coding to the metal, only going to be used for up-resed 360 ports, etc etc. complete fabrications and wishful thinking

seems very sony biased.

this is useless, only pay attention to these when programmers that are actually making games on both have an opinion, and even then, tread carefully.

he's also implying xbox gpu will be pre-gcn for example, when no rumors say that. he's completely making things up.

are you joking? He knows plenty. Developed FXAA.

Your the one coming off as biased here towards MS.

hes not being biased but stating his opinion on what he thinks is better based off rumors. It makes sense for dev, to prefer a system that is focused on games, which is what devs create. DVR, Windows system detracts from that. I wouldn't call that "not seeing the bigger picture." I'm pretty sure most game developers would feel that way.

Now I will say, that him being a dev that primarily focuses on AA algorithms and what not, that he would be more inclined, not biased, to favor a system with better bandwidth. Like he said in another post, his new AA engine hes been developing wouldn't work on a system with the rumored specs as Durango at 1080p, but would on Orbis. Obviously hes going to favor the system that his product works on.
Last edited by JohnnySasaki86; 01-26-2013 at 07:52 AM.
Norml
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(01-26-2013, 07:50 AM)
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Originally Posted by Untalkative_Bunny

Fast Approximate Anti-Aliasing (FXAA) is an anti-aliasing algorithm created by Timothy Lottes under NVIDIA.

smart guy.

No AA vs FXAA with the Samaritan demo.

Move the slider
http://international.download.nvidia...parison-1.html
grimshawish
Banned
(01-26-2013, 07:50 AM)
You might almost believe that the rumour MS has gone for a very large OS and the suggestion that Orbis and Durango are exactly the same can not go hand in hand.

Originally Posted by flipswitch

Wasn't this posted in the latest dev kit orbis thread?

Should edit this. You'll get banned.
scitek
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(01-26-2013, 07:51 AM)
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Originally Posted by specialguy

At least two very big leaps of logic with no support seem to be made:

-Next box might have pre-GCN GPU

-MS wont allow coding to the metal of any sort

He posts here. Maybe he'll say something if he sees this thread.
sangreal
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(01-26-2013, 07:51 AM)
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Originally Posted by specialguy

At least two very big leaps of logic with no support seem to be made:

-Next box might have pre-GCN GPU

-MS wont allow coding to the metal of any sort

- Durango will run a pc version windows
Tricky I Shadow
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(01-26-2013, 07:53 AM)
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Originally Posted by DocSeuss

Naughty Dog's games look ahead of other peoples' games graphically? What?

Artistically, sure, but from a graphical perspective, plenty of people don't just outdo them, but pound them into the dirt.


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