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Dice
Member
(02-12-2013, 04:39 PM)
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So I never really heard anything bad about these games. Whenever they were mentioned, it was someone naming one or both of them as one of the best RPGs ever. They are often put high in rankings for top RPGs/games ever and spoken of as masterworks. I put off playing them for a long time, but then finally this past Christmas sale I picked them both up for $5 and now got around to giving them a go. So far this is what I have found:

-These are not some of the best games ever
-These are not some of the best RPGs ever
-These are not even good by my personal RPG stadards
-These are not even as good as what I think is standard for BioWare

Maybe, possibly, a long time ago when these games were released, cutscenes with voice acting was something of a novelty and that shocked people into thinking they were good. Really, I find most of the interactions with various characters incredibly bland, cutscenes or no. Having been waaay late to several other famous computer RPGs, I am finding these incredibly lacking on the interesting dialogue side, and on the cinematic/personality side they are obviously very lacking compared to nearly anything newer.

As for combat, it is downright terrible. Through the interface it pretends to be tactical, but then you actually try to use tactics and it shits all over itself. Even if you cancel all of a character's actions to give them new actions, instead of doing them right away they will wait for 10 seconds, run off somewhere to do something pointless first, just run around randomly, ignore your command and engage someone closer, etc. If they do ever get around to what you said, the whole battle has changed and that command is no longer useful or relevant.

What that results in is pretty much battles that finish themselves while you are trying to make a different battle happen, that is, unless you accept that the whole system just blows ass and let it do its automated thing. The extra sad part is that this actually works and the game really doesn't seem to need much direction from you at all to finish itself. This manages to hurt the story pretty badly, as threats are non-threats. I haven't experimented with setting the difficulty as high as it can go, but I feel that might be more annoying than useful with the way it ignores my commands.

Then you have the shitty powers system and how you pretty much must go full light side or full dark side if you want anything to be effective. Try to be grey and you will get no benefits and force powers that almost never clear resistance checks. Go light side and your dark side powers will be ineffective as well as expensive. There is a definite only a binary choice here and that is not only shitty for making your own play style, but for going through the story.

The concepts of light and dark side here seem to have absolutely nothing to do with how the concepts typically play out in personalities in other Star Wars media. There is little about patience and rashness, insight and seduction, endurance and elimination, etc. Light side is reduced to simply doing anything that only a decent person would do, and dark side is reduced to being an asshole for absolutely no reason. This does play out in events, but often most ridiculously in conversations. It's also sad that (to me) it often doesn't happen when you want it to, like telling Kreia to shut her condescending bitch face when she butts in to be rude to someone you're having a friendly conversation with.

While I could easily point to many other RPGs for examples on how to do things right, and honestly I would even prefer if it to threw off the tactical facade and be an action game like Jade Empire, the changes I would most prefer have already been demonstrated in a different series: Mass Effect. If I hadn't played Mass Effect games, I would still have plenty of disappointments in KOTOR as an RPG, but I wouldn't have a super clear picture on how to do exactly what it was going for so, so much better. How? Well let's just look over what I complained about.

Story/cutscenes: Mass Effect, and especially the second one, had real cinematic flair and character with personalities that seemed a lot more genuine, not just puppets parroting lines from a script emotionally removed from each other and the context of the situation and environment. This may be a limitation of technology, but playing stuff like Deus Ex and Bloodlines, I'm not so sure about that being an excuse to come off so dry. As I said, even text conversation RPGs have made much more compelling interactions. Still, Mass Effect has a similar universe and presentation concept, so it really shows.

Combat: It is more gun based than Star Wars, but KOTOR still has a lot of gunplay in it. The first Mass Effect was still a bit spotty, but I think by the second the whole concept really found its stride. Your party members would nearly always do exactly what you told them to do. Sure they'd make dumb decisions if left to themselves, but if you made sure your management was smart, you could pull off a lot of great maneuvers with great team synergy. A lot of the powers are similar to force powers, so it clearly shows what could have been. In comparison, KOTOR is ridiculously sloppy and disconnected from your input. If this hybrid can't be done, I say go full traditional/tactical like Dragon Age or full action like Jade Empire.

Powers/morality system: Again, Mass Effect shows how to do it better. There are benefits, but it doesn't utterly nerf half your options if you go one way. And while ME1 still had some issues with how it depicted the "evil" side, ME2 totally nailed it for how the difference of personality tends to actually manifest in situations. It also gives you more of a reason to be evil, because it actually comes off kind of badass, not just being a jerk for no reason. This bring up a smaller problem I had with KOTOR: You can't bee cool looking like Darth Maul or something, you always just turn grey/boring.

So yeah, I find these hugely overrated. The fighting is sloppy and unresponsive, the interactions with NPCs suck, the powers/morality system sucks, the story and quests are extremely boring, and every aspect of what it was specifically going for has been demonstrated in successful form with the Mass Effect series. I will grant some possibility that there is a more manual control over combat that I am ignorant of (yes I know about the predisposition settings) but even if there is and that fixed the battle disconnect, it doesn't fix the other problems.

I know this opinion will be very unpopular with some, but I'm used to having some unpopular opinions and would like to see if there are people who agree with me that just choose to not chime in when there are love fests for these games. I would rank them toward the bottom of the barrel, above Dragon Age 2 but below Jade Empire. There are way more computer RPGs worth playing before these, even really low-tech ones like Avernum. And if you count JRPGs in the list of games to play in your life, there is pretty much no reason to ever bother with these. Not to mention the game engine is buggy as shit.
kai3345
Member
(02-12-2013, 04:41 PM)
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hahahahaha
Syril
Member
(02-12-2013, 04:42 PM)
Someone's going to spend way too much time trying to ream into you for it, so I'll just say it: KOTOR 2 was developed by Obsidian, not BioWare.
LiK
Member
(02-12-2013, 04:42 PM)
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An I in bizarro land?
throwawayname
Member
(02-12-2013, 04:42 PM)
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I NEED SCISSORS
Banned
(02-12-2013, 04:43 PM)
For what its worth, i've tried a good half dozen times to get into KOTOR and find it nearly impossible. The combat is abysmal, and I think this is down to how poorly the user interface is and how little it scales up to high resolution.
sh4mike
Member
(02-12-2013, 04:43 PM)
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Jesus. Try comparing with what was available at the time on Xbox/PS2.
ilnadmy
Member
(02-12-2013, 04:43 PM)
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KOTOR was great with a really fun combat system, but KOTOR 2 was pretty terrible.
Mister_Bubbles
Member
(02-12-2013, 04:43 PM)
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Your mother would be ashamed if she heard you talking like that.
TUSR
Member
(02-12-2013, 04:43 PM)
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yeah KOTOR was awful man.

yeah.
Munin
Member
(02-12-2013, 04:44 PM)
GAF u never disappoint
kodt
Banned
(02-12-2013, 04:44 PM)
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Did you know the planets Tatooine, Dantooine, Kashyyyk, Korriban before playing KOTOR?
Wuthering_Heights
Member
(02-12-2013, 04:44 PM)
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...what?
Derrick01
Banned
(02-12-2013, 04:44 PM)
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I'm trying to understand why you're comparing Mass Effect to these older games so much. Advances in graphics and combat are obvious over time as that's some of the only things that this generation advanced, but the story telling and writing ability is far below Kotor 2 standards. The morality system is about the same, if you want renegade/paragon dialog choices you have to be a renegade/paragon through the whole game otherwise they get locked out of the dialogue.

I'll agree with you partway. Kotor 1 is a really bad game by just about every standard, but I held that opinion when I played it in 2006 so it's not just a "the game didn't age well" thing.
GoddyofAus
Banned
(02-12-2013, 04:44 PM)
Oh man, you're in for a world of hurt.
The Lamonster
Member
(02-12-2013, 04:44 PM)
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I'm revoking your GAF GOLD privileges.
whatevermort
Member
(02-12-2013, 04:45 PM)
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KOTOR is my favourite game ever. So, I don't know what to tell you. Opinions are like etc etc.
Spazznid
Member
(02-12-2013, 04:45 PM)
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Woah, woah, woah, woah, woah....

*Takes off nostalgia goggles*

...Woah. Slow down there guy.


I Disagree with your opinion one hundred percent.
SolsticeZero
Junior Member
(02-12-2013, 04:46 PM)
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Tetris was terrible guys! You couldn't save, and you only had three tracks of music!

Seriously? Comparing a game that's over a decade old to one that's only a couple of years old is kinda shitty. KOTOR is great.
wrowa
Member
(02-12-2013, 04:46 PM)
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If Kotor isn't good by BioWare standards, then what good RPG has the studio ever developed? BG2 and that's it?
Hero_of_the_Day
Member
(02-12-2013, 04:46 PM)
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Hey guys!!! I don't like something that is popular.
Mastperf
Member
(02-12-2013, 04:46 PM)
I enjoyed them both and as a non-fan of the franchise, they did more to make me like the Star Wars franchise than the last 3 movies did.
Green Card
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(02-12-2013, 04:47 PM)
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I loved KOTOR when it came out on xbox but recently I tried playing through it again on PC and it just doesn't hold up. The intro planet is boring and it doesn't play as well probably because it was originally a console game. And I'm not hating because its old I played through Baldur's Gate again last year and it was just as awesome.
Karak
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(02-12-2013, 04:47 PM)
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Originally Posted by shinobi602

Hahahahaha. Best response.
default two
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(02-12-2013, 04:47 PM)
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you're really trying your hardest to be abrasive in that last, non-spoilered sentence huh
MasterBalls
Member
(02-12-2013, 04:47 PM)
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They were made 10 years ago. Take that into account.
erpg
GAF parliamentarian
(02-12-2013, 04:47 PM)
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Did you at least enjoy playing Towers of Hanoi?
Alextended
Banned
(02-12-2013, 04:49 PM)
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So, why do you feel the need to troll? Do you crave the attention as hinted by the thread title and your arguments or what? Why not simply say what you think of the games and leave it at that, is it so hard? Why try to proclaim why others, people you potentially don't know, liked the games (games which are so objectively bad you hated them!) which makes you look silly?

Edit: on the other hand it's weird how some people assume you dislike it because it's old. I never played through the games (they didn't seem appealing to my tastes even though I liked older games like the IE engine games and Fallout 1 & 2, I'm not big on Star Wars and the 3D implementation didn't seem much better than NWN 1 & 2 which I didn't like either) but by your comments (well, other than that seemingly positive mention of the Mass Effect series) I'm sure you'd love plenty games older than these as they do sound more or less broken mechanically. Though I suppose you may still consider their stories boring.
Last edited by Alextended; 02-12-2013 at 05:05 PM.
Munin
Member
(02-12-2013, 04:49 PM)

And if you count JRPGs in the list of games to play in your life, there is pretty much no reason to ever bother with these.

Oh man. My weeaboo sensors are tingling.

Edit: Actually with that avatar of yours they're more blaring on full volume now.
Kozak
Banned
(02-12-2013, 04:49 PM)
Yeah I thought they were shit too.

I played them last year.
CaptainTiptop
Member
(02-12-2013, 04:50 PM)
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Comparing them to Mass Effect is just stupid. Oh boy, a developer has improved over the years? Who would've thought it!
Sotha Sil
Member
(02-12-2013, 04:51 PM)
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Originally Posted by Munin

Oh man. My weeaboo sensors are tingling.

Edit: Actually with that avatar of yours they're more blaring on full volume now.

But Mission is incredibly moe!
UpperCaseN
Member
(02-12-2013, 04:52 PM)
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Originally Posted by Green Card

I loved KOTOR when it came out on xbox but recently I tried playing through it again on PC and it just doesn't hold up. The intro planet is boring and it doesn't play as well probably because it was originally a console game. And I'm not hating because its old I played through Baldur's Gate again last year and it was just as awesome.

I figured as much. "did not age well" is what I assumed. I never played these when they were out. Tried KOTOR 1 about 6 months ago on original xbox. I wanted to like it but I hated the combat system. It's neat that they used Dice types to show probability, being a tabletop gamer and all, but I ended up quitting after 3 hours and sold them both on ebay.

Watched the twist ending on youtube and I figured as much. I would have been surprised back in the day but since I knew there was a twist I was expecting it.

still, I'm certain these were great back then
Burt
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(02-12-2013, 04:52 PM)
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Originally Posted by Dice

I know this opinion will be very unpopular with some, but I'm used to having some unpopular opinions and would like to see if there are people who agree with me that just choose to not chime in when there are love fests for these games. I would rank them toward the bottom of the barrel, above Dragon Age 2 but below Jade Empire. There are way more computer RPGs worth playing before these, even really low-tech ones like Avernum. And if you count JRPGs in the list of games to play in your life, there is pretty much no reason to ever bother with these. Not to mention the game engine is buggy as shit.

You're right. KOTOR needs more belt buckles, terrible voice acting, and fetishized 13 year-old-girls.
michaelius
Banned
(02-12-2013, 04:52 PM)

Originally Posted by CaptainTiptop

Comparing them to Mass Effect is just stupid. Oh boy, a developer has improved over the years? Who would've thought it!

They are years ahead of Mass Effect 1 when it comes to story and quests.
Patryn
Member
(02-12-2013, 04:53 PM)
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Mass Effect is a Third person shooter/RPG that becomes more of a TPS the more you go on.

KOTOR is an RPG through-and-through.

Why are you comparing the gameplay of the two? Unless you're lamenting that KOTOR isn't more of an action based game?

Did you take any time to understand the core rules, how rounds work, etc, etc? It explains a lot about the unresponsiveness that you complain about.

Anyways, opinions are opinions. I'm sorry you didn't like the games. Doesn't change that I consider them classics and love to go back to them.
Dice
Member
(02-12-2013, 04:53 PM)
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Originally Posted by Syril

Someone's going to spend way too much time trying to ream into you for it, so I'll just say it: KOTOR 2 was developed by Obsidian, not BioWare.

I never said otherwise.

Originally Posted by Green Card

I loved KOTOR when it came out on xbox but recently I tried playing through it again on PC and it just doesn't hold up. The intro planet is boring and it doesn't play as well probably because it was originally a console game. And I'm not hating because its old I played through Baldur's Gate again last year and it was just as awesome.

Exactly. I don't get the people talking about it being old, because since I build a gaming PC I have been playing tons of old games and a lot of them are still fucking awesome. Being old is no excuse.

Originally Posted by Friedreich

you're really trying your hardest to be abrasive in that last, non-spoilered sentence huh

No, I just spent a really long time getting them to function properly on my PC and they still don't fully work right. I know it happens sometimes, but it also isn't the case with a great many old PC games, so I will fault the programming to some degree and express my frustrations.

Originally Posted by Patryn

Why are you comparing the gameplay of the two? Unless you're lamenting that KOTOR isn't more of an action based game?

No, I'm wishing it functioned more accurately as an RPG. However, yes I would have also preferred an action game if it was going to ignore my commands so much.

Did you take any time to understand the core rules, how rounds work, etc, etc? It explains a lot about the unresponsiveness that you complain about.

That doesn't explain shit. All the infinity engine RPGs, Neverwinter Nights, Dragon Age, etc seem fully responsive to what I set things to do. This does not.
Last edited by Dice; 02-12-2013 at 04:57 PM.
eznark
john deere tramp stamp
(02-12-2013, 04:54 PM)
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o/u 14 years old
Doomrider
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(02-12-2013, 04:54 PM)
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No, I don't overrate KOTOR2. I enjoy it exactly for what it is.

If you've never heard or read anything bad about these games, you really have to start reading more. The combat is not very good, agreed, but boring story and quests? In KOTOR 2? I just can't.

Also, the games only only have as much gunplay as you want them to and I can't believe you're comparing cinematic flair in cutscenes between games from different generations, 6/7 years apart.

This should teach you a lesson, though: always temper your expectations.
IdreamofHIME
Member
(02-12-2013, 04:54 PM)
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Mass Effect
Mass Effect
Mass Effect
Mass Effect
wah
wah
wah


...youre saying a game that was made a decade is ago isn't as cinematic as something made today? Well fuck me, what a revelation.
inky
Member
(02-12-2013, 04:54 PM)
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"below Jade Empire" Oh, now you've done it.

I disagree 100% that I don't even know where to start, but I'll tell you this: there is nothing intrinsically complicated to the combat so it would behave the way you say. It's turn based with a sprinkle of real time, that means, you queue commands and those roll dice to calculate the outcome, sometimes you miss, sometimes you hit. You can pause in between commands and some of them have cooldowns so you can't spam them, but that is it.

I guess the whole scenario you described has more to do with not understanding the game mechanically more like it suddenly behaving in strange ways. Queue Flurry ability-> watch character get close to enemy-> Do Flurry-> End command.Then the character will wait for input or do something if you don't give him anything to do. You may not like it, or even think it feels old and that's fine, but the combat is that straightforward tht I don't know what you were expecting. Remember this game comes from a turn based past, not an action game one.

And yes, games have evolved in the past half a decade, who would've thought. I'd still take KOTOR's story to that of Mass Effect which is filled with as much black/white morality crap and awful dialogue as their other games.
Isaccard
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(02-12-2013, 04:55 PM)
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Last edited by Isaccard; 02-12-2013 at 04:58 PM.
Sothpaw
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(02-12-2013, 04:55 PM)
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OP is correct. Bioware took a massive step down with kotor and never recovered.
Fake Charlemagne
Junior Member
(02-12-2013, 04:55 PM)
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If you're serious I'm going to need you to seek immediate psychiatric help. The world through your eyes must be a terrifying and horrible place.
GoddyofAus
Banned
(02-12-2013, 04:56 PM)
Can I just add for the record that I thought Jade Empire was boring as fuck.
TouchMyBox
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(02-12-2013, 04:56 PM)
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KOTOR 1 was pretty good, but a tad overrated.

KOTOR 2 is pretty incredible.
LiK
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(02-12-2013, 04:56 PM)
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Don't let OP play Baldur's Gate.
andregnreis
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(02-12-2013, 04:57 PM)
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Some gameplay and narrative improvements are made through the years. KOTOR is almost 10 years old and its one of the first games to have a dark/light meter, later used on Mass Effect.

Even Metal Gear Solid 3, one of my favorite games of all time, has some rough spots nowadays like the shooting where you have to press so many buttons. Same will be said about MGS4 in the coming years... and probably non regenerative health in GTAIV (yeah for me it was a pain to get the health up and buy body armor before every mission)... random monster battles in Jrpgs... and so on.
inky
Member
(02-12-2013, 04:57 PM)
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Originally Posted by LiK

Don't let OP play Baldur's Gate.

"It's worse than Skyrim"

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