Yeah, from what I've seen, most of the games seriously affected by this are rather niche. Games with broader appeal would be more likely to have localized audio regardless, since the publisher would surely see it as financially viable. So having it as a mandate does more harm than good in the end, at least in my opinion.
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XSEED Translator on why all games don't get dual audio
- Thread starter Stuart444
- Start date
Yeah, from what I've seen, most of the games seriously affected by this are rather niche. Games with broader appeal would be more likely to have localized audio regardless, since the publisher would surely see it as financially viable. So having it as a mandate does more harm than good in the end, at least in my opinion.
Shouta
Member
No, not really. Even niche products will benefit from being properly localized to the local market with the bells and whistles. The perception is that it hurts it if you don't include original audio but honestly, it's fairly unlikely to increase the sales by much. If it's just jp audio, you may even lose folks that don't particularly like being unable to understand the language being spoken as well. The folks that like it in the original language is noticeable smaller in the larger picture. Japan shows dubbed and subtitled versions of movies at theaters fairly often but the dubbed ones have FAR higher demand, on the whole, for example.
and tbh, most Japanese dubs are fairly bland. It's nice to have when the English dub is bad but good English dubs are far better on the whole, for a variety reasons, IMO.
and tbh, most Japanese dubs are fairly bland. It's nice to have when the English dub is bad but good English dubs are far better on the whole, for a variety reasons, IMO.
I would imagine it's a clause in their contracts set up by the developer, not a choice picked by the VA.
HansKisaragi
Banned
You know what i hate most? Obnoxious, Entitled Gamers..
BlackIronCount
Member
well japan also show subbed call of duty sold more than dubbed call of duty game
How much of that has to do with the fact that the sub releases come out earlier?
Hcoregamer00
The 'H' stands for hentai.
I totally understand the XSEED's translators point.
I have been into gaming and anime for a while, so the idea of having dual language is still different. It was not that long ago that dubbed anime was cheaper than subtitled VHS tapes, and that ALL video games had (bad) English voice acting as standard. I am glad that we get games period, than have crappy voice acting. I rather have Valkyria Chronicles 2 with its anime-style voice acting and no Japanese than to not get Valkyria 3 AT ALL.
I have been into gaming and anime for a while, so the idea of having dual language is still different. It was not that long ago that dubbed anime was cheaper than subtitled VHS tapes, and that ALL video games had (bad) English voice acting as standard. I am glad that we get games period, than have crappy voice acting. I rather have Valkyria Chronicles 2 with its anime-style voice acting and no Japanese than to not get Valkyria 3 AT ALL.
I was always curious how Yakuza was able to get physical copy without having English dub?
Three guesses:
1. Sega has more clout. This may also explain Aksys managing it after the first Agarest Wars despite as far as I know not dubbing them, they made the inroads to get exceptions.
2. The cultural angle, being a game set in Japan with realistic-ish graphics rather than being some anime game set in a fantasy setting or more globally. MAYBE Aksys got through with this one, but that seems weaker being Agarest is an anime thing in a fantasy setting, whereas Way of the Samurai 4 was set in the past yet is PSN only (but that may've been a deliberate choice to skip retail period for XSEED.)
3. Games of a sufficently large size are allowed to skip past, and I believe each of the Yakuza game is HUGE size-wise. Dunno how big the Agarest games are though and I think those wound up on PSN anyway (they did hit 360 at least).
I'm guessing it's a bit of 1 and 3. XSEED's admitted they want to focus more on digital in the future, and Tecmo Koei seems like a company that doesn't really want to press the issue (or do much of anything in NA anymore but get the games released and call it a day) and even went digital only with Ken's Rage 2 on Wii U when that was probably unnecessary.
Refreshment.01
Member
Pretty much what i imagined but i don't think is an all encompasing response. Or at least why is this the case still?
Since game productions costs has scalated to the point in some cases that get's out of hand, why don't game companies sign contracts that take in to consideration foreign markets? The goal of most publishes financing expensive games in today's market is to produce something that its as universally accepted as possible, so precautions to achieve this are expected. And most videogame buyers tend to prefer the original vision of the product whenever possible or at least to have that option.
Speaking of Japan, this reminded me that some of the later Call of Duty games received both subbed and dubbed editions there. According to Garaph, it appears that the subbed ones are much more popular than the dubbed ones, both on the PS3 and the 360.
I'd wager that even if the subbed editions were the only ones available, most who bought the dubbed editions would probably buy the subbed ones instead. Although, perhaps gamers in North America are just way more picky when it comes to this sort of thing than Japanese gamers are, those who are fans of niche games anyway (FPS games are still fairly niche in Japan, aren't they?).
This is a good point. But in Shouta's movie example, I would imagine that movies are released in Japan with subs first and a dubbed version later (pretty sure that's how it is in other countries anyway). If that's the case, and demand for the dubbed one is still higher, then I'd assume that anyone in Japan who really cared about the dubbed editions of CoD games would simply wait for those (it's only a 1 month wait).
SpaceDrake
Member
So many times, the producers in Japan simply don't care about foreign sales.
It's very hard to understand from an American perspective, especially since we're very aggressive about exporting our culture. But a lot of the companies in Japan simply don't want to bother and have to be convinced to even try in the first place. In a lot of ways, it's easier to just stay in Japan and focus on the domestic market.
Explanations are nice at and all, but for me, a product which does not include the original audio is simply not worth nearly as much as one which does. That's why I bought all previous Atelier games at full price (collector's boxes even, sometimes the EU and the US one), and why I am not getting Ayesha (or at least until it's in the bargain bin).
If this results in fewer games being localized, then, well, though luck -- it's not like I would have enjoyed them much anyway. Overall, it seems to me like we are getting more and more products of the type I desire (with dual audio), even from companies like Namco Bandai and Nintendo. So it seems like it is well possible to overcome any issues that might prevent such a release.
If this results in fewer games being localized, then, well, though luck -- it's not like I would have enjoyed them much anyway. Overall, it seems to me like we are getting more and more products of the type I desire (with dual audio), even from companies like Namco Bandai and Nintendo. So it seems like it is well possible to overcome any issues that might prevent such a release.
Now that I think about it, just how seriously would you follow this? Because this was prompted by someone saying they wouldn't buy the next Trails in the Sky if they brought it out only for there to be no Japanese language track, but that's a game that ONLY had battle quips, and in its original PC release was purely silent. I can at least sympathize in the case of Ayesha, I don't think it's worth boycotting JUST for that but there's lots of VA and if the English annoys you it can drag the whole thing down, but in Trails it's practically a non-issue, not worth getting hung up over especially given how good the game arguably is relative to most other JRPGs. At the least, you could mute VA and you actually would be getting a more authentic experience.
It obviously depends on the game. For the Ateler games I always felt that the VA added massively to some of the characters, which are in turn one of the major reasons I enjoy the games (the other being the intricate gameplay systems). As an example, without
In a game where the VA is of lesser importance I can just bite the bullet and mute it. But still, as long as I have a choice on the market -- and I do, there are far more entertainment products vying for my attention than I could ever find the time to enjoy -- I will prefer those games that offer the functionality I desire.
Dragon1893
Member
Punishing them for going the extra mile with an english dub is indeed unfair. Just play with text only if the english voices bother you.
I wish we had the luxury of complaining about dual audio in yakuza 5 and trails in the sky 2 and 3.
I wish we had the luxury of complaining about dual audio in yakuza 5 and trails in the sky 2 and 3.
Chairmanchuck
Member
Anyone has ever been a part of a licencing deal for Anime/Manga? The japanese publishers are really the worst "I" (I was just part of it) have ever dealt with.
If you wanna buy the licence of a good-selling Anime, you often need to buy the licence of a shitty-running Anime no one even cares about. Besides that the contract states, that the japanese Publisher can do whatever they want and also just terminate the contract at whatever time they want.
Besides that, at the time I was there, you needed to send the coverdesign of your DVDs or of the Manga to the japanese with normal post (it was 2008/2009) instead of just uploading the .png or whatever to their servers or write an email. Then it could take 4 weeks and they tell you, that they do not like it and you have to redesign it (mostly it was about the font). Then it takes another 4 weeks.
It was really horrible.
The publishers really seemed so arrogant. My "boss" told me, that only japanese contracts are like that. If they wanna licence an American/French/Swedish/whatever movie, after they acquired the licence, they can almost do anything they want with it. Do not need to ask for permission for a DVD-Cover.
So I assumed the same is with videogames from Japan.
If you wanna buy the licence of a good-selling Anime, you often need to buy the licence of a shitty-running Anime no one even cares about. Besides that the contract states, that the japanese Publisher can do whatever they want and also just terminate the contract at whatever time they want.
Besides that, at the time I was there, you needed to send the coverdesign of your DVDs or of the Manga to the japanese with normal post (it was 2008/2009) instead of just uploading the .png or whatever to their servers or write an email. Then it could take 4 weeks and they tell you, that they do not like it and you have to redesign it (mostly it was about the font). Then it takes another 4 weeks.
It was really horrible.
The publishers really seemed so arrogant. My "boss" told me, that only japanese contracts are like that. If they wanna licence an American/French/Swedish/whatever movie, after they acquired the licence, they can almost do anything they want with it. Do not need to ask for permission for a DVD-Cover.
So I assumed the same is with videogames from Japan.
RyougaSaotome
Member
Incorrect. Dubs and subtitled releases are typically released over here at the same time.
The dubbed movies are almost always way more packed, except for huge event movies like The Avengers (people know who Robert Downey Jr is for example). And yeah, like Shouta said, the irony is that there are actually quite a few terrible Japanese dubs.
*stares long and hard at Ni no Kuni*
This is a misunderstanding. It's not about "punishing" the localizers, it's about preferring to buy products which offer features that increase your enjoyment. It's basic consumer behaviour -- being willing to spend more money on games you'll enjoy more.
Also, from the perspective of someone who prefers the original audio in 95% of the cases (yeah, there actually are games where I think the dubbed version is better) doing a dub and not including the original is not really "going the extra mile". It's more like going one mile less.
ranmafan
Member
Its definitely an annoying thing to deal with but absolutely something that is understandable considering Japanese companies and their crazy rights issues and demands. I just hate it when it isn't known ahead of time that these issues come up. Games seem to do a good job of not having this problem with companies informing their fans most of the time, but anime hasn't always been that way Ive found. I remember never hearing about the Kodocha anime missing audio until disks were sent out to reviewers. I don't even think they mentioned the missing audio on the case which is something I think should've been mentioned. I don't know as I simply refused to buy the disk as I considered the missing audio to be unacceptable. Same thing happened with Zeta Gundam and its music issues, where people didn't even know until they got the disks.
Personally these days I just avoid it all together by just buying the Japanese version when I want the Japanese voice actors and such. But thats cause I can understand Japanese, and of course that isn't a solution for everyone. I really wish these issues would disappear but I doubt there will be much changes from the Japanese side of view any time soon.
Personally these days I just avoid it all together by just buying the Japanese version when I want the Japanese voice actors and such. But thats cause I can understand Japanese, and of course that isn't a solution for everyone. I really wish these issues would disappear but I doubt there will be much changes from the Japanese side of view any time soon.
HolyBaikal
Banned
I do this a lot of times. Of course, one of the issues here making me want to have an English version, is that for me, spoken Japanese is preferable to written Japanese as someone not fluent in the language.
Spoken Japanese is a lot easier to understand than written Japanese, especially with subs, obviously.
Then there's also the fact that the game does not "technically exist" in your country. And that what you're doing feels somewhat illegal and just a step above piracy, even if you've paid $100 for a single game. I don't like spending $100 to merely feel like I've pirated a game.
Which brings me to another point, while importing classic Japanese games can be fairly cheap. Buying new Japanese games is practically always twice the price of buying an American localized copy.
But if you, for instance, try to sell your import games to a local used games store, they won't care it, because they consider it illegal to carry import games and would put their business in jeopardy. While nobody may be wanting to prosecute me for owning a Japanese video game, it is very clearly legally iffy as an activity. Just like emulation. In fact, many arcade machines blatantly state that the games are illegal and a violation of copyright to play outside of Japanese borders. And thus piracy.
I hate the feeling that the game I pay $100 for doesn't technically exist in my country. And is legally iffy for me to even hold in my hands as an American living in America.
Doesn't stop me from doing it all of the time. Wait, what are the rules of admitting to piracy on this forum?
michaelius
Banned
This - rioting because game X doesn't have dual language VA means you simply won't get next games because publisher will decide it's not profitable enough.
HolyBaikal
Banned
But piracy is just a word for copyright infringement, really.
And import gaming, that I understand, is copyright infringement.
Either that, or local game stores which refuse to buy/sell/trade import games are just making poor excuses.
Wonko_C
Member
While I would never go as far as not buying or even boycotting a game because of not having battle cries in Japanese, I'm one severe nut case about them. I wouldn't even mind it if a game's dialogue is dubbed in English but GIMME MY JAPANESE BATTLE CRIES %&$(@! I like the way they do screams, yells, KO cries (KOF XIII's are so well done, they even have two variations for KO cries per character. Sadly, Iori's stuck with the same phrase instead of a simple "gwwooooooh!" as an alternate), etc.
*clears throat*
Leaving the loco aside, English VAs improved a lot in that respect in a very short period of time, Johnny Young Bosch and Yuri Lowenthal are insanely good at it.
JYB for Adol's grunts in Celceta pls 
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
No, import gaming is not copyright infringement. I mean, there's some shit in the copyright code about how importing goods that are copyrighted in the States can be iffy, but it's not gonna apply to games. You will not be prosecuted to the full extent of the Jam.
And either way, who cares what copyright law says you can do? The dudes who wrote that are old and wrinkly as shit. Ass-backwards stuff like the DMCA limits your ability to back up games, for example, but that nonsense will probably be written out of the document the second someone who's actually seen a computer before has the chance. It's all kinda arbitrary and meaningless. Fuck tha police.
In the eyes of forum rules, import games are not piracy, regardless of what other contractual legalities are in play.
Every import store I'm aware of that's been shut down from lawsuits has been done so over bung carts, mod chips, or 30-in-1 carts/silvers. Legit stores, like NCSX, have been around practically forever.
HolyBaikal
Banned
You need to learn more about laws before you talk about them.
Hmm, just a stupid question here (as I think I know the answer and just would like an explanation).
If the original contract is limiting the dub to a japanese exploitation, why is it not possible, with the participation of the original publisher and the voice actors, to make another one for international use ?
Would it be more costly than a dub ? Totally impossible to make this sort of complementary contract ?
If the original contract is limiting the dub to a japanese exploitation, why is it not possible, with the participation of the original publisher and the voice actors, to make another one for international use ?
Would it be more costly than a dub ? Totally impossible to make this sort of complementary contract ?
Gentleman Jack
Member
I think this was covered. For niche games like the kinds XSEED localizes, the cost of such direct individual negotiations for international markets between (often very small) parties is too high. It's a lot of money, time and energy spent for what is likely a very marginal uptick in sales, and that's assuming they (i.e. the Japanese contract-holders) even say 'yes, we'll talk to you.'
You're missing a few points here:
- The company releasing the game in the US already had to pay a Japanese company for the rights to release the game in the first place (Invested Cost A).
- 90% of the time, the company will have to create a dub anyway because while a small part of the audience wants the original language they cannot understand, most people prefer an entire game in a language they can understand (Invested Cost B).
- Hiring a team of lawyers to draft contracts, tracking down every single agent representing every member of the original Japanese voice cast, etc, is not within the project scope of most people looking to release niche games which might not even break even.
Personal import of copyrighted works is explicitly permitted by U.S. copyright statutes:
17 USC § 602 (a) (3) (B) said:
Resale has been somewhat up in the air. There's a case regarding resale going before the Supreme Court soon. Still, major U.S. stores such as Fry's Electronics have carried Japanese-market games.
HolyBaikal
Banned
Then I've been misinformed yet again.
Though I don't like that "one copy" thing. I happen to have two Japanese copies of Tales of Grace f. Just because I like to support the developers, and because I like having one copy to play, while one copy to keep in the original packaging and bubble wrap.
Under that law, what I am doing is technically illegal. Also far too restrictive in general.
I also don't like the fact it states it cannot be distributed. And that is has to be a "personal copy".
Though I don't like that "one copy" thing. I happen to have two Japanese copies of Tales of Grace f. Just because I like to support the developers, and because I like having one copy to play, while one copy to keep in the original packaging and bubble wrap.
Under that law, what I am doing is technically illegal. Also far too restrictive in general.
I also don't like the fact it states it cannot be distributed. And that is has to be a "personal copy".
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
Distribution's not necessarily the same as resale, though. Honestly, I'd think it's governed by the first sale doctrine even though it was imported, which would mean that you can legally resell it if you want to. But there's probably something I'm missing because I'm not paying attention and I'm also half-asleep still.
You're not missing anything other than people being silly in this thread.
WrenchNinja
Member
The furthest I can recall back as being the first couple of games I played dubbed is maybe Mega Man X4, Mega Man 8 and Brave Fencer Musashi. The former two weren't so great but the latter was pretty good I thought. I guess Resident Evil was pretty bad. Yeah, I guess the 90s weren't so great but most 00s games I played were alright. It's usually the script that's bad rather than the voice acting itself.
Two reasons why stores don't always care to deal with imports:
1. Customer service/return policy. Try explaining to someone with a 360 they bought "back home" that some games in your store will work on their system and others won't and they're not clearly labeled because there's just no easy system or reference for this.
2. ESRB compliance. Ratings are not equivalent across regions and if a store has a policy it's difficult to extend across imports.
Still, almost every store with any focus on gaming - big and small - has dabbled in imports at one time or another. The only ones I can think of who haven't are huge boxes (best buy, sears, Walmart) but as others pointed out, frys carried some, amazon has and also has international sites; hell, GameStop carried import DS games for a little bit. But it's just not a product people buy on a whim. You need a dedicated audience who knows why it's more expensive than the other games on the shelf.
RyougaSaotome
Member
Yup, I remembered seeing that and being all "WTF."
Actually ...
Crazy! Not something I ever saw.
R_thanatos
Member
I understand the translator point of view even if he picked a very bad example.
However , you cannot feed me atelier games with dual audio , and all of the sudden , big change and oh no we can't get dual audio anymore.
Sorry If there was a problem, solve it but don't feed me the "licenses exist" argument.. it's too late ..i'm playing atelier games in japanese since the ps2 .. don't tell me we can't get the voice now ..
I just can't accept this.
However , you cannot feed me atelier games with dual audio , and all of the sudden , big change and oh no we can't get dual audio anymore.
Sorry If there was a problem, solve it but don't feed me the "licenses exist" argument.. it's too late ..i'm playing atelier games in japanese since the ps2 .. don't tell me we can't get the voice now ..
I just can't accept this.
That was (hopefully) a one off screw up due to the change of publishers and underestimating how much people cared. I guess NISA went "hey could we get that in?" and they went "sure" without thinking it through much, and when the new publisher didn't request it they didn't think much of it at all.
deddonpachi
Member
instead of giving interview he should translate tits2 and 2!
That warn't no interview, yo! Just me responding to a dude on our forums. I'm sure I'll get some crap from my coworkers tomorrow for having spawned a whole heated debate with another of my innocuous and unauthorized comments.
-Tom
I imagine if these interviews/posts not being done could've equalled getting both of those games done by now... well, people'd probably be worrying about their health right now.
H.Protagonist
[-_-]/
That warn't no interview, yo! Just me responding to a dude on our forums. I'm sure I'll get some crap from my coworkers tomorrow for having spawned a whole heated debate with another of my innocuous and unauthorized comments.
-Tom
Our V.P. would like you to know that your tendency to cap whole words with random, wanton abandon incenses him to no end.
Dragon1893
Member
You're missing my point. If there are legal issues preventing them from using the japanese audio then they are left with 2 choices: dub or text only. Usually they try to provide a dub so there's at least one language track in the game only to have fans say that they will boycot the game because there's only english audio. This is unfair.
Keep in mind that I'm talking about situations where the western publisher doesn't have access to the original voices for legal reasons.